KILL SIX BILLION DEMONS: Beginnings are false and I am a consummate liar.

[Eldan]

Like I said! A dozen odd holes aside, it's a strategy that's worked out well so far, so why reinvent the wheel!

Isn't reinventing the Wheel (of the multiverse) pretty much her job?

[eschmenk]

We, the readers, recognize the references to biblical-mythological stuff. We can look up the word "Incubus" or "Metatron" on Wikipedia (so we know that Incubus is veeery probably up to no good). We know the names of all the seven godkings, and we have read the comment-stories about Aesma and about the underlying principles of the world. Allison wasn't shown on-panel to have received lections and instructions, so it's safe to assume that she doesn't know ALL of the background yet.

My impressions was that Allison was the one was controlling the characters' appearances in her mindscape, so I thought she was the one who made Incubus so well-endowed (or a least put him in pants that emphasized it if he really is that way). If so, I think she understands the basic idea behind Incubus.

Clearly not. I was hoping she was, but I guess genre-savvy is more Cio's schtick.

Three questions:

- How valid is our genre knowledge in that setting? Allison isn't on Earth. The author is clearly using RW sources as inspiration, but he's not slavishly adhering to whatever he's read. Would Cio's genre-knowledge be identical to our RW one? I doubt it.
- Would genre-knowledge matter, even if Allison had tons of it? I doubt that, too. I may be wrong, but my impression was that Allison's desperation would have overridden anything. Even before the reveal, although I interpreted Allison as knowing enough to expect an evil temptation from Incubus, I thought all the self-loathing may overwhelm any other consideration. We were told that her mindscape was full of self-loathing, so it would logically control her thinking.
- Would genre-knowledge tell her anything useful, anyway? Yes, there are stories about Incubus, but there are also stories where, "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!" is the right answer and tons that would tell you to take advantage of the overconfident villain's mistakes. Which do you pick? Presumably even in-world genre-knowledge would be about as useful.

[lord_khaine]

As she herself pointed out, she is also whoefully underpowered for what she is planning to do. She got about a dozen holes though her body as a reminder of just how weak she actually is.
So far she has more or less been passed around as a prize. I can understand her desire to regain control at any price.

[-D-]

HUGE FORESHADOWING.

I see this ends well for everyone involved.

[mystic1110]

Mottom is the bearer of the word Glory
Incubus is the bearer of the word Flame

Any guess what words the others bear?

[Olinser]

Mottom is the bearer of the word Glory
Incubus is the bearer of the word Flame

Any guess what words the others bear?

Since Flame is one, guessing Ice or Frost is going to be another (probably Jadis).

My guess on others would be Destruction or Conflict for Jagganoth, Desire or Want for Mammon (favor Want just because the Blade of Want has already made an appearance), Change or Deceit for Gog-Agog, and I WOULD have said Glory for Solomon David, but now I'm thinking Light or Power.

[danelsan]

Since Flame is one, guessing Ice or Frost is going to be another (probably Jadis).

My guess on others would be Destruction or Conflict for Jagganoth, Desire or Want for Mammon (favor Want just because the Blade of Want has already made an appearance), Change or Deceit for Gog-Agog, and I WOULD have said Glory for Solomon David, but now I'm thinking Light or Power.

Consider this excerpt, taken from the Liturgy page on the comic's website:

PSALMS

BOOK I

———————–

I. ROYALTY

-YS ATUN VRAMA PRESH-

-THE SEVEN SYLLABLES OF ROYALTY-

Then, check out this question/answer from the Tumblr:

Q ) Anonymous asked: What, if anything, does 'YS ATUN VRAMA PRESH' mean when translated?

A) The Glory, The Tower, The Flame, The Diamond, The Blade, The Mind, The Beast

But that’s just one translation.

Those are likely the words that will be used by the Seven.

[Olinser]

Consider this excerpt, taken from the Liturgy page on the comic's website:


Then, check out this question/answer from the Tumblr:



Those are likely the words that will be used by the Seven.

Hmm, hadn't seen that before, but I agree those are likely the words.

The Glory, The Tower, The Flame, The Diamond, The Blade, The Mind, The Beast

So then that leaves us with Tower, Diamond, Blade, Mind, Beast.

My guess there is that Jagganoth = Blade, Jadis = Diamond, Gog-Agog = Mind, Mammon = Beast, Solomon David = Tower

[mystic1110]

I sort of feel that it wouldn't be so literal. Who expected Incubus (The Sword King) to be Flame? I assume he gets Flame through his connection to Desire and Passion? But what was Mottom's connection to Glory? The fact that she was keeping up appearances for her pet kings and queens?

That's why I think the names will be placed in creative ways. For example the Grand Dragon of the Vault. . . for some reason I doubt it will be Beast, Tower or Diamond. . . those seem to all be too literal to him. Between the Sword and the Mind, I'm going to guess he's the Sword. I have an inkling that it will be Jagganoth who is the Mind. He seems to be the most reclusive. I also feel that it would be terribly ironic for Solomon David to bear the name of the Beast so that's my guess for him. Jaddis can be diamond although i do think that might also be too literal as ice and diamond look the same. That leaves Gog-Agog as the Tower. Just my humble guesses?

[Admiral Squish]

I've always loved the vast breadth of symbolism that comes with 'flame' or 'fire'. It's energy, light, life, passion, drive, warmth, love, hunger, anger, destruction, rebirth, it is wild, it is uncontrollable, it warms the hearth, it heats the forge, it is a weapon, it is a danger, it is vital, it is chaos, it is a beacon in the darkness, it is seductive, it is the tool of civilization and also its destroyer... If you think of it as heat, you can see how fire makes the universe function at the fundamental level, how all chemical reactions require heat, require some sort of movement, and how, without it, the universe simply stops, frozen, locked in perfect, eternal stasis.


I admit, I was not expecting incubus to have 'the flame', nor for him to be 'the sword king', either. But I suspect our speculation is largely useless, as these words probably tie to aspects of the seven we have not yet seen. I would say Mottom fits 'glory' quite well, as she was all about appearances and presence. Not sure how well 'flame' fits incubus yet.

[Eldan]

The Flame, however, seems to be largely associated with the White Flame and the Black Flame in this setting.

I can't see Pride not being The Tower, really. I would have guessed Jagannoth as The Beast. But then, he actually does seem very reclusive and his pose is often quite thoughtful when he is seen, so maybe The Mind is not wrong. Of course, Mammon may be the Beast because he's the only one not human.

[AmberVael]

Ah. Well, I think we've got our explanation of flame here. Desire and Passion? Maybe. But more importantly, Hunger. Consumption. Flame devours.

[mystic1110]

Note the people from incubus' story are in his pit and are not looking so great.

[Onyavar]

Noted. Makes me wonder about his modus operandi. Did these guys have their moment of glory and were then addicted to his flame, coming for more in a court of beggars?
Or did they never have any power, just the illusion of it.
And what are they possibly seeing right now, of themselves and their surroundings.

This page is a hell of an eye-opener.

[-D-]

Note the people from incubus' story are in his pit and are not looking so great.

HUGE FORESHADOWING.

I see this ends well for everyone involved.

Emphasis mine.

------------------------------

Noted. Makes me wonder about his modus operandi. Did these guys have their moment of glory and were then addicted to his flame, coming for more in a court of beggars?
Or did they never have any power, just the illusion of it.
And what are they possibly seeing right now, of themselves and their surroundings.

This page is a hell of an eye-opener.

Well, if his name didn't clue you in - Incubus (latin for I sleep on top) - a demon that apparently drains sexual energy from female victims. I mean, it's like making deal with Luci Fer Sheitan von DeVille, and expecting everything to work as you intended.

I think he didn't lie about giving them power, he just never told her, what happens once the rush is over. Plus inserting a piece of yourself into a powerful creature like her, is bound to stop her from hurting him.

[Dalinale]

Current theory; Incubus was born a blind albino dude who discovered that he could live vicariously through helping others achieve their goals by giving up fragments of his personal power. This method was effective at helping others, and also gave him a limited form of immortality that relies on the existence of individuals containing slivers of his soul. Due to the cosmic nature of the setting and the practical nature of his power set, Incubus slowly scaled in power over the millennia until he was able to create vast armies of what would be considered legendary-tier heroes to secure his place in the current classification of the universe.

Entirely unrelated note: Getting serious Dark Soul vibes from the decrepit nature of Lethyx and the ruined nature of Incubus's 'sponsored' servants.

[-D-]

Current theory; Incubus was born a blind albino dude who discovered that he could live vicariously through helping others achieve their goals by giving up fragments of his personal power. This method was effective at helping others, and also gave him a limited form of immortality that relies on the existence of individuals containing slivers of his soul. Due to the cosmic nature of the setting and the practical nature of his power set, Incubus slowly scaled in power over the millennia until he was able to create vast armies of what would be considered legendary-tier heroes to secure his place in the current classification of the universe.

Sounds like albino Yhwach from Bleach.

[Onyavar]

Well, if his name didn't clue you in - Incubus (latin for I sleep on top) - a demon that apparently drains sexual energy from female victims. I mean, it's like making deal with Luci Fer Sheitan von DeVille, and expecting everything to work as you intended.

I think he didn't lie about giving them power, he just never told her, what happens once the rush is over. Plus inserting a piece of yourself into a powerful creature like her, is bound to stop her from hurting him.

Hm?, sure yeah. I wasn't questioning Allison's deal with him. The readers all know it's a bad one, and Allison will realize it soon enough.

I was simply referring to the depiction of Incubus' court. It reeks of EVIL, but I guess we still only know half of it. Just look at the page. Yes, the "poor bastards" that he empowered three pages prior are there, prisoners inside his walls, and empty husks. I'm not sure if he still drains them, but he keeps them around for something. Are they his personal zombie army, are they reminders of previous hobby projects, ... ?

I was also pondering how THEY view themselves at this moment: They are kings, popes, princesses, warrior lords... Are they now living in a permanent dream world at his court, or do they know they are wearing rags, sitting in mud and eating corpses ?

We know that Mottom rules 111.111 worlds to support a glorious lifestyle at her court, just for all the glory to go to waste. She destroys her worlds and is evil.
Incubus rules 111.111 worlds, but his court is waste, pretending to be glory. It's just the other way around. But Incubus is a horrible being, a god-king of the multiverse. He hardly leaves all of his realms alone. So, what does Incubus need his worlds for? Does he feed from their dreams? Are his courtiers drawing powers from other worlds, and Incubus draws power from his lackeys? What is his modus operandi?

By the way, we can already suspect that Mammon's realm is exploited so that he can amass a larger hoard and run his banking temple. We can also suspect that Jagganoth is using his seventh part of the multiverse to forge his ever-growing army. The other three are harder. Solomon David stands for pride, so I could imagine he enjoys being a revered god king a bit too much and is merely claiming to be a "just dictator". Hmm... Gog Agog and Jadis we'll have to wait for.

[-D-]

Hm?, sure yeah. I wasn't questioning Allison's deal with him. The readers all know it's a bad one, and Allison will realize it soon enough.

I was simply referring to the depiction of Incubus' court. It reeks of EVIL, but I guess we still only know half of it. Just look at the page. Yes, the "poor bastards" that he empowered three pages prior are there, prisoners inside his walls, and empty husks. I'm not sure if he still drains them, but he keeps them around for something. Are they his personal zombie army, are they reminders of previous hobby projects, ... ?

Anyway, I assume he works like an Incubus/Succubus. Gives you orgasms/power/pleasure, for a part of your life energy. So basically a vampire that feeds on lust (and soul).

Zombies are probably, really old customers. Really old.

I was also pondering how THEY view themselves at this moment: They are kings, popes, princesses, warrior lords... Are they now living in a permanent dream world at his court, or do they know they are wearing rags, sitting in mud and eating corpses ?.

It seems to mirror addiction. So my 100% correct and unbiased time vision, is that they don't care. They want another hit, of whatever he is dealing. And Alison is their next hit.

So, what does Incubus need his worlds for? Does he feed from their dreams? Are his courtiers drawing powers from other worlds, and Incubus draws power from his lackeys? What is his modus operandi?

Their dreams, their wants, their blood. I assume getting to where they are is the first stage. Then once the rush is over, you start seeking it again. But you achieved your dreams. And the only guy that can get you the rush is Incubus, only he needs a little favor, etc.

Solomon David stands for pride, so I could imagine he enjoys being a revered god king a bit too much and is merely claiming to be a "just dictator". Hmm... Gog Agog and Jadis we'll have to wait for.

Solomon David, is probably something about more magic. And the way these worlds work, the magic is in the blood of mortals.
Gog Agog needs worms. Lots of worms, only finest worms, from finest heroes.
Jadis, who knows? More Jade? More souls to keep her from dying?

[mystic1110]

They don't all need to take something from their worlds:

Jadis apparently does nothing. Her priests just enforce a religion around her.

David doesn't really take anything from his worlds either it seems. Seems like his pride makes him want to do a fantastic job.

I think most of them rule 111,111 universes just because they can, not because they need too. Mother Om's power though comes from gluttony so her pillaging her worlds makes sense. Incubus is probably more selective with whom he consumes and fires up.

Edit: also sems the Incubus might not have a grand scheme, and is simply enjoying the ride.

[Leewei]

Spoiler: Thoughts about Incubus and Jagganoth

Show

Jagganoth was one of the seven, but was pathetic compared to the others in the older days. He is now an invincible giant. The pattern seems familiar with those in service to Incubus. They started out as sorry folk, who were raised to exalted status by his poisonous gift.

Incubus is clearly happy, not dreading Jagganoth in the slightest, as he strides into their meeting.

It seems as if Jagganoth may simply be one of Incubus's many kings.

[lord_khaine]

I seems to recall hearing that Incubus's realms were an incredibly chaotic place. And its starting to make sense. Incubus dont care enough about anything to do any sort of ruling. So he more or less leaves his realm to its own.
But he also regularly empowers random people with the strenght and will to conquer parts of it, and set themselves up as local rulers. So there will newer form any sort of permanent goverment. Because it will eventually be overthrown by some new warlord. Either one stronger than the previous, or else one directly empowered by Incubus.

[Olinser]

They don't all need to take something from their worlds:

Jadis apparently does nothing. Her priests just enforce a religion around her.

David doesn't really take anything from his worlds either it seems. Seems like his pride makes him want to do a fantastic job.

I think most of them rule 111,111 universes just because they can, not because they need too. Mother Om's power though comes from gluttony so her pillaging her worlds makes sense. Incubus is probably more selective with whom he consumes and fires up.

Edit: also sems the Incubus might not have a grand scheme, and is simply enjoying the ride.

That's not what it says about David. It says they're safe and prosperous with no freedom. He'll feed you and keep you safe as long as you never even THINK about questioning him or thinking for yourself.

From the descriptions I personally would rather be living under Incubus than David. At least then you can make your own way and possibly rise to the top.

But yeah, Incubus is giving off a very drug-dealer vibe. He knows what you need and he can get it for you.

[Onyavar]

Spoiler: Thoughts about Incubus and Jagganoth

Show

Jagganoth was one of the seven, but was pathetic compared to the others in the older days. He is now an invincible giant. The pattern seems familiar with those in service to Incubus. They started out as sorry folk, who were raised to exalted status by his poisonous gift.

Incubus is clearly happy, not dreading Jagganoth in the slightest, as he strides into their meeting.

It seems as if Jagganoth may simply be one of Incubus's many kings.

That would be troubling. If Incubus is secretly the master of other demiurges, especially the most powerful one...
Naah. They are probably just planning together. Mottom and Mammon are in a symbiosis with regards to credit and goods, for example. I suspect that Jagganoth is there to tell Incubus of Mottom's fate, so that they can plot against Mammon next. Or instead plan ahead so that Mammon will only be weakened but not destroyed, so that he can cough up a bit money for big J.'s weaponry. Or...

On an unrelated note, I noticed a few signs that mean 'middle' in Chinese. Is Incubus, sword master of the middle army, from China?

[Olinser]

Spoiler: Thoughts about Incubus and Jagganoth

Show

Jagganoth was one of the seven, but was pathetic compared to the others in the older days. He is now an invincible giant. The pattern seems familiar with those in service to Incubus. They started out as sorry folk, who were raised to exalted status by his poisonous gift.

Incubus is clearly happy, not dreading Jagganoth in the slightest, as he strides into their meeting.

It seems as if Jagganoth may simply be one of Incubus's many kings.

Seriously doubt it. We've already been given all but explicit information that Jagganoth is working for Metatron.

Incubus seems like he's just trying to play up to both sides so regardless of who wins he'll come out on top.

[lord_khaine]

That's not what it says about David. It says they're safe and prosperous with no freedom. He'll feed you and keep you safe as long as you never even THINK about questioning him or thinking for yourself.

Im pretty certain he wont care a bit about what you think, as long as you follow his rules.

From the descriptions I personally would rather be living under Incubus than David. At least then you can make your own way and possibly rise to the top.

And funny enough i have it direct opposite. I suspect people who have prosperity (like us who can spare the time to debate on the internet), takes a lot of the things it bring for granted.
So i would take only being allowed to vote for Solomon David any day of the week, over being ruled by a changing number of warlords.

I mean, just because Incubus cant spare the time to personally oppress you does not mean that any of the people beneath him wont do so. And for every person that manages to rise up there are something like 999 people who are pushed to the bottom. So thats not odds i feel like playing on either.

[Olinser]

New comic!

OK, they are DEFINITELY talking about Maya.

[Onyavar]

New comic!

OK, they are DEFINITELY talking about Maya.

Really? Then she is a lot older than she looks. (Or, the seconds conquest was just recently which I doubt) And she must be a lot more powerful than she revealed so far. Because we have seen Incubus was already around when the demiurges were powerful Lords under Zoss. Uh. Wait. Checking here now, there is Zoss, with 8 demiurges in the 'vice and greed' panel. The horned woman talking to Incubus could be the one they speak of here.

Going back to what I said earlier: the demiurges rule the multiverse not because they leave their worlds alone. They all found ways to stay alive for a long time, and they found ways to keep ruling - instead of falling prey to the guilds, or other would-be powers. The majority of their worlds is utterly under their control, respectively. Just having master keys can't be enough.

If Jadis really does nothing, then her priesthood certainly keeps things running. (that's probably her awful secret: she's powerful enough to stop her inquisition, but doing so would risk her eternal life, and so her priests can ruin her worlds unchecked).

The same with Incubus. If he's nominally ruler of 111111 worlds, and widely recognized as such, he IS probably meddling. If not personally, then by proxy.

It's in the job description. Sure, they might loath what they have become, like Mottom says, but they drive as much as they are driven.

[eschmenk]

(Or, the seconds conquest was just recently which I doubt)

I believe the second conquest is ongoing (penultimate panel). Om hasn't gotten to Allison's world yet, for example.

BTW, what did Incubus mean by "this world?" Lethyx is his spire on Throne, which is where he's at, right? Was he just speaking metaphorically of Lethyx and the pit around it?

[Olinser]

I believe the second conquest is ongoing (penultimate panel). Om hasn't gotten to Allison's world yet, for example.

BTW, what did Incubus mean by "this world?" Lethyx is his spire on Throne, which is where he's at, right? Was he just speaking metaphorically of Lethyx and the pit around it?

I'm leaning more towards Incubus actually 'owning' Throne, myself.

I mean, there 777,777 worlds, of which Throne is one, and each of the Demiurges runs 111,111. They didn't say 111,111 worlds each with one left over, so SOMEBODY has to have Throne officially within their zone of control, and the free-for-all we saw when Allison first got tossed there was there matches up with Incubus' reputation for the anarchy he lets run his worlds.