Spheres of Power Ask Me Anything #2

[Hal0Badger]

Q 274: When using the Extradimensional Room (space) talent of Warp sphere, is the entrance of the room accessible all the time by any creature? Or will it be accessible by only the people caster selects, much like Mage's Magnificient Mansion spell or can it be made un-accessible by outside creatures, like in Rope Trick spell?

[runnetib]

Q275Is SoP not designed to work with the 'Green Faith Acolyte' feat? It seems to me that there's a very strong synergy there and that it should apply, but when using Hero Lab, I've noticed that it does not seem to have an effect on any geomancy(plant) talents.

[SangoProduction]

Q276: For Alteration sphere's Vermin Transformation's Poison trait, is Unarmed Strikes a valid "natural attack" to grant this to?

[Mehangel]

Q275Is SoP not designed to work with the 'Green Faith Acolyte' feat? It seems to me that there's a very strong synergy there and that it should apply, but when using Hero Lab, I've noticed that it does not seem to have an effect on any geomancy (plant) talents.

A275 This might be a question for Adam Meyers to answer, but as the writer for the Geomancer's Handbook (Nature sphere handbook), I feel that abilities such as Resist Nature's Lure, and feats such as Green Faith Acolyte should apply their benefits to the whole of the (plantlife) geomancing package of the Nature sphere.

However, in the case of the Green Faith Acolyte, if used with Spheres of Power, would apply its "Spells you cast that deal damage, channel negative energy, or otherwise harm life do not hurt normal or magical plants" to include any sphere abilities you use aswell.

[pfm1995]

Q. 277 Regarding the Darkshaper Armorist's Shadow Limb class ability,

A shadow limb is treated as bound weapon with respect to arsenal tricks.

Does this mean a Darkshaper could take the Additional Binding arsenal trick to gain another shadow limb?

Quick Edit, hopefully before this gets answered:

Q. 278: Still regarding the Darkshaper Armorist, does losing Bind Staff mean that it can no longer give its shadow limbs staff enchantments at level 10?

[Dell_the_Engie]

Q279 Can spherecasting archetypes for spellcasting classes work with other archetypes that impose "diminished spellcasting"? There are several Magus archetypes, as well as some Path of War archetypes, that alter the spellcasting feature in this way. This question has been visited before, about a year ago now, and I believe the idea was that one could impose a spell point penalty instead of the spell slot penalty. But I would love to read thoughts on it now, and hopefully see some support for it in a more official capacity. Thanks!

[EldritchWeaver]

Q279 Can spherecasting archetypes for spellcasting classes work with other archetypes that impose "diminished spellcasting"? There are several Magus archetypes, as well as some Path of War archetypes, that alter the spellcasting feature in this way. This question has been visited before, about a year ago now, and I believe the idea was that one could impose a spell point penalty instead of the spell slot penalty. But I would love to read thoughts on it now, and hopefully see some support for it in a more official capacity. Thanks!

A279: I haven't looked at those archetypes, but I wouldn't touch spell points. Instead I would impose a CL penalty. Either some constant penalty or shift the CL progression down a step (High to Mid, Mid to Low).

[Dell_the_Engie]

A279: I haven't looked at those archetypes, but I wouldn't touch spell points. Instead I would impose a CL penalty. Either some constant penalty or shift the CL progression down a step (High to Mid, Mid to Low).

If you're unfamiliar with dimished spellcasting, it's that you have 1 fewer spell/day of each spell level you can cast (minimum 0). It alters the spellcasting feature somewhat, but in no dramatic, fundamental way, which is why it could have compatibility with spherecasting in the first place. There are definitely several ways to go about adapting it, different variables you could tweak. I think the closest approximation to actual traditional spell slots are spell points, and maybe talents in the case of spontaneous casters. CL on the other hand correlates a lot more closely to the spell level progression of a traditional spellcasting class, which is not what diminished spellcasting actually affects. This was the last post covering the topic that I referred to previously, by the way. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1295

[EldritchWeaver]

If you're unfamiliar with dimished spellcasting, it's that you have 1 fewer spell/day of each spell level you can cast (minimum 0). It alters the spellcasting feature somewhat, but in no dramatic, fundamental way, which is why it could have compatibility with spherecasting in the first place. There are definitely several ways to go about adapting it, different variables you could tweak. I think the closest approximation to actual traditional spell slots are spell points, and maybe talents in the case of spontaneous casters. CL on the other hand correlates a lot more closely to the spell level progression of a traditional spellcasting class, which is not what diminished spellcasting actually affects. This was the last post covering the topic that I referred to previously, by the way. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...postcount=1295

I still consider my approach to be the better option. SoP has many at-will powers, which do not necessarily require spell points. Or have ways to circumvent expenditure of spell points. If all you do is to take SPs away, you just incentivize those talents/feats, with the result that effectively diminished spellcasting doesn't have any effect at all.

[A.J.Gibson]

Q279 Can spherecasting archetypes for spellcasting classes work with other archetypes that impose "diminished spellcasting"? There are several Magus archetypes, as well as some Path of War archetypes, that alter the spellcasting feature in this way. This question has been visited before, about a year ago now, and I believe the idea was that one could impose a spell point penalty instead of the spell slot penalty. But I would love to read thoughts on it now, and hopefully see some support for it in a more official capacity. Thanks!

I homebrew a sphere conversion for the sphere magus a while back here

tl;dr:

DS reduces spellslots, which are the equivalent to spell points, while spells known would be the equivalent of talents. So how many spell points to take away? I would say one spell point per slot lost is about right, plus one to continue the pattern up to 20th level (since spells stop increasing in spell level). It's true that arcane casters get about twice as many spell slots than spherecasters get spell points, but the fact that they are limited by level makes them, on average, about half as good.

I've looked at the magus archetypes (when I tried to do a new conversion) and found with 2 spell points per feat (Extra Spell Points feat) the balance seems about right. Except for Blade Scarf Dancer which should just not have DS. So I would go with:
-A high caster with diminished spellcasting does not receive a spell point at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, or 19.
-A mid caster with diminished spellcasting does not receive a spell point at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, or 19.
-A low caster with diminished spellcasting does not receive a spell point at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, or 17.

[Mehangel]

Q279 Can spherecasting archetypes for spellcasting classes work with other archetypes that impose "diminished spellcasting"? There are several Magus archetypes, as well as some Path of War archetypes, that alter the spellcasting feature in this way. This question has been visited before, about a year ago now, and I believe the idea was that one could impose a spell point penalty instead of the spell slot penalty. But I would love to read thoughts on it now, and hopefully see some support for it in a more official capacity. Thanks!

I also have seen people implement "diminished spellcasting" as negative general drawbacks. Using this system, each General Drawback, not bought off with Boons, decrease the Effective number of "diminished spellcasting" the character has by 1 before determining their bonus spellpoints. See Table below:

# of times Diminished Spellcasting Given	Levels that Spell Points are decreased by 1	Total # of Spell Points lost
Diminished Spellcasting x1	1, 6, 18	3
Diminished Spellcasting x2	1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18	7
Diminished Spellcasting x3	1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19	10
Diminished Spellcasting x4	1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18, 20	14
Diminished Spellcasting x5	1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17. 18, 19, 20	20

[A.J.Gibson]

I also have seen people implement "diminished spellcasting" as negative general drawbacks. Using this system, each General Drawback, not bought off with Boons, decrease the Effective number of "diminished spellcasting" the character has by 1 before determining their bonus spellpoints.

What happens if you multi-class? Traditions are character specific while DS is class specific. I'm not against the basic idea, but it seems it should be handled as a separate mechanism and not by turning it into a drawback.

[Mehangel]

What happens if you multi-class? Traditions are character specific while DS is class specific. I'm not against the basic idea, but it seems it should be handled as a separate mechanism and not by turning it into a drawback.

I suppose it would affect all spherecasting classes, since spell points and talents are all pooled together (unless you use the weird optional rules found on page 161.

[A.J.Gibson]

I suppose it would affect all spherecasting classes, since spell points and talents are all pooled together (unless you use the weird optional rules found on page 161.

The fix is simple: state that the spell points are only lost for levels in that class.

I'm not certain if its necessary to allow for stacking DS, since DS isn't that common (think there are 5 or so archetypes for the magus with DS: Kensai, Soul Forger, Skirnir, Bladed-Scarf Dancer, maybe another). I'm also not certain if DS is only worth 3 spell points. Different archetypes seem to treat it as having a different value. The Bladed Scarf Dancer doesn't seem to get anything for it all. It trades proficiency with martial weapons for an exotic weapon proficiency, weapon focus and the ability to use that weapon as if it were one handed, and then it trade 3 armor proficiencies for Int-to-AC (which sounds like a fair trade to me. But then is has DS on top of that! After looking at Kensai, I would say DS is worth about 3 feats given the other trades it makes, which is about 6 spell points for the Magus.

[Dell_the_Engie]

Thank you all for your responses, I'm so glad to see discussion around this.

I still consider my approach to be the better option. SoP has many at-will powers, which do not necessarily require spell points. Or have ways to circumvent expenditure of spell points. If all you do is to take SPs away, you just incentivize those talents/feats, with the result that effectively diminished spellcasting doesn't have any effect at all.

Very true, at-will abilities are worth considering, that's a big difference from traditional spellcasting. Although many at-will abilities also have limitations that most spells don't have (concentration-based duration, longer casting time, or limited effect without spending a spell point), so maybe it balances out? Your mileage may vary, depending on what spheres and talents you focus on, which of course was your point; simply reducing spell points would incentivize taking certain talents. With that said, I would disagree that being able to work around reduced spell points means diminished spellcasting has no effect; the effect is at least that players make different choices based on their limited spell points. I guess the question then is how much that matters.

DS reduces spellslots, which are the equivalent to spell points, while spells known would be the equivalent of talents. So how many spell points to take away? I would say one spell point per slot lost is about right, plus one to continue the pattern up to 20th level (since spells stop increasing in spell level). It's true that arcane casters get about twice as many spell slots than spherecasters get spell points, but the fact that they are limited by level makes them, on average, about half as good.

I've looked at the magus archetypes (when I tried to do a new conversion) and found with 2 spell points per feat (Extra Spell Points feat) the balance seems about right. Except for Blade Scarf Dancer which should just not have DS.

Reducing spell points based on the number of slots lost looks like a straightforward way to go about it, while sensibly scaling the penalty appropriate to the caster. It is worth noting that there are no examples on the PFSRD of Bloodrager, Paladin, or Ranger archetypes imposing diminished spellcasting, presumably because they start with 0 1st-level spells/day at 4th level. So in those cases, there is probably nothing to worry about.

I also have seen people implement "diminished spellcasting" as negative general drawbacks. Using this system, each General Drawback, not bought off with Boons, decrease the Effective number of "diminished spellcasting" the character has by 1 before determining their bonus spellpoints.

While I like the idea of just taking the inverse of the general drawback bonus, I'm not sure I follow the table. I suppose there are cases where diminished spellcasting could theoretically stack multiple times? But I don't believe that works by RAW.

If I could make a suggestion, I would use the table as the guideline for which class levels spell points are lost, and apply the x3 penalty to Full casters, and the x2 penalty for Mid and Low casters. It's all the same number of points lost as A.J. proposes, but it's synchronized with which levels you gain spell points from general drawbacks (at least until someone messes that all up with multiclassing). Since Bloodragers, Paladins, and Rangers only gain casting at 4th level, they see no spell point penalty until 6th level (presuming they can even take an archetype with diminished casting).

[Mehangel]

While I like the idea of just taking the inverse of the general drawback bonus, I'm not sure I follow the table. I suppose there are cases where diminished spellcasting could theoretically stack multiple times? But I don't believe that works by RAW.

The point to the table was incase you played multiple classes with archetypes that granted diminished spellcasting. For example (while including 3rd party): A Kensai (Magus)/Dreadmasque (Direlock)/Occult Medium (Oracle)/AngelFire Apostle (Cleric) would have Diminished Spellcasting from 4 sources, and if they were used in a campaign with spheres of power, they would likely draw from the same pool of talents and spell points.

[Dell_the_Engie]

The point to the table was incase you played multiple classes with archetypes that granted diminished spellcasting. For example (while including 3rd party): A Kensai (Magus)/Dreadmasque (Direlock)/Occult Medium (Oracle)/AngelFire Apostle (Cleric) would have Diminished Spellcasting from 4 sources, and if they were used in a campaign with spheres of power, they would likely draw from the same pool of talents and spell points.

Right, and you would treat the diminished spellcasting in that case like a drawback across all those casting class levels, as opposed to a penalty tied to each individual class's levels. Makes sense now, thank you.

[Dell_the_Engie]

So, there's been a few proposed ways to handle diminished spellcasting, and thanks again for the replies. I've got a much better sense now of at least how I'd house rule it. But could we see support for Diminished Spellcasting in a more officially-recognized capacity? It seems that only a couple of new lines on sphere archetypes would be needed to lay down the rules, and it would open up many more interesting combinations.

[A.J.Gibson]

So, there's been a few proposed ways to handle diminished spellcasting, and thanks again for the replies. I've got a much better sense now of at least how I'd house rule it. But could we see support for Diminished Spellcasting in a more officially-recognized capacity? It seems that only a couple of new lines on sphere archetypes would be needed to lay down the rules, and it would open up many more interesting combinations.

The priority now is to get all the handbooks out, and SoM has also drained a lot of resources. By the time we get handbooks done, I suspect PF will have moved on to second edition, or at least we'll be writing stuff for Starfinder. Despite this, I have a pet project: new versions of the sphere archetypes that clean them up. Hopefully something will come of it.

[Dell_the_Engie]

The priority now is to get all the handbooks out, and SoM has also drained a lot of resources. By the time we get handbooks done, I suspect PF will have moved on to second edition, or at least we'll be writing stuff for Starfinder. Despite this, I have a pet project: new versions of the sphere archetypes that clean them up. Hopefully something will come of it.

Thank you for the answer. You guys are certainly spinning a lot of plates right now, so I won't hold my breath for official diminished casting rules, but I hope you do find the time for this pet project. What handbooks remain to be published?

[stack]

A collection of questions regarding Alteration:

Q 259: How does the feat Transformation or the Change Shape ability interact with Permanent Transformation? Do you have to roll every time you employ Transformation/Change Shape to see if you can override the Permanent Transformation?

Q 260: Can you change the weapon gained by Shape Weapon after casting? If not, does this mean that this prevents Permanent Transformation and Improved Transformation from gaining new weapon forms?

Q 261: If you take Graft Weapon instead, how do the answers change?

Q 262: How do you know which traits are available for Belated Shift? What happens, if you grant that trait to someone else (with/without Alteration talents)? Can you add available traits somehow?

A259: That would be a bit annoying, but yes, unless you cast permanent transformation yourself. I believe you autopass such checks against your own effects, though I don't have a citation at my fingertips.
A260: Changing the shaped weapon would be just like changing any other trait, so using permanent transformation would lock you in. Improved transformation locks you into a single choice, yes.
A261: Once cast, the weapon is grafted in for the duration of the effect. Now this would get interesting if you temporarily overrided a permanent transformation or switch out of your improved transformation. I suppose you would just graft in whatever weapon was in that limb when the effect resumed. TYhats how I would play I think.

Q267: Is it possible to get a weapon from Shape Weapon of Morphic Weapon without losing an arm or leg? Would prehensile tail count as such a limb? Considering you can upgrade the tail with another trait to have a stinger and shape weapon is a trait, too, this seems fair.

A267: The language used is 'limb capable of wielding a weapon' so as to curb possible abuse. Is you had a natural attack on the tail and chose to override it, I would call that fair, but otherwise just having a tail without a natural attack would not be sufficient.

[EldritchWeaver]

A267: The language used is 'limb capable of wielding a weapon' so as to curb possible abuse. Is you had a natural attack on the tail and chose to override it, I would call that fair, but otherwise just having a tail without a natural attack would not be sufficient.

Addendum: Considering that the extra arms have not the same language as the prehensile tail, can you use those for attacks?

[A.J.Gibson]

Thank you for the answer. You guys are certainly spinning a lot of plates right now, so I won't hold my breath for official diminished casting rules, but I hope you do find the time for this pet project. What handbooks remain to be published?

Mind is the next book to be published, and it will be 10th book (out of 20). It will be followed by Life, and then probably Creation. Conjuration will be the next book to enter playtest, followed by Fate and possibly Death. I'm not certain how Illusion or Warp are doing. The (probably) final books will be Weather (the author just started working on it), Time (needs a complete rewrite after the author dropped) and Protection (which I'm writing, and is hard to make non-boring). Generally, 1 book comes out every 2 or 3 months, so it'll be a while before we're done.

[Zsaber0]

Q280

Do you regain spell points when you fall asleep or when you wake up? The answer seems obvious, just want to confirm.

[EldritchWeaver]

Q280

Do you regain spell points when you fall asleep or when you wake up? The answer seems obvious, just want to confirm.

A280: As you regain spell points after roughly 8 hours of uninterrupted rest, the answer is neither.

[Zsaber0]

A280: As you regain spell points after roughly 8 hours of uninterrupted rest, the answer is neither.

So if your sleep is uninterrupted, do you regain them when you awaken?

[Afgncaap5]

So if your sleep is uninterrupted, do you regain them when you awaken?

You gain them after the rest itself. Waking seems to have little to do with it. But if you automatically wake up after eight hours, then I suppose waking up would "coincide" with having them back.

[Zsaber0]

Q281

Does the ring of sustenance work for spell points?

[digiman619]

Q281

Does the ring of sustenance work for spell points?

Does it return your power points or spell slots? Then why would it return your spell points?

[EldritchWeaver]

Does it return your power points or spell slots? Then why would it return your spell points?

Actually, it does return spell slots. "The ring also refreshes the body and mind; its wearer needs only sleep 2 hours per day to gain the benefit of 8 hours of sleep." This implies that everything is refreshed. The following sentence is a ruling, that spell slots are only affected once per day, so by RAW you would regain power points and spell points every two hours. I would expand that rule to cover all kinds of spellcasting.