OOTS #1089 - The Discussion Thread

[Svata]

A mint and strict counterfeiting laws.

Wait, I thought the value of gold currency was intrinsic, not ascribed to it by how much the government said it was worth? You can't have it both ways.

[Erys]

Erys, you are blatantly ignoring reality and history. The American Revolutionary army nearly rebelled in large part due to a lack of confidence that they would be paid, which mostly arose because Congress was repeatedly failing to pay them at the time. We actually have a remarkable track record with disease, considering how debilitatimg or deadly it often was. When was the last time you heard of a smallpox case, or had a classmate with Polio, or hell, worried that you would lose a limb after an injury due to Gangrene? And I guess the 30's was just a whole bunch of people laid off because employers all fept like being eviler all of a sudden.

When medicine wasn't "for profit" and we had incentive to find cures... sure. That has not been the case since the 60's.

Anyhow, on the American Revolution- the currency issue and the utter disaster that was Continentals is the reason why the Constitution gave only Congress the ability to coin money and regulate it. Money as silver and gold was understood throughout the land, so much so the Constitution didn't actually define it (oops!). That didn't happen until the Coinage act a 1792.

It should be noted that the federal reserve is only not unconstitutional because Congress is technically allowed to borrow. Now the intent of that was to borrow in times of need (like war or famine) and pay the debt back as quickly as possible; not borrow $20 trillion from a private institution with no intentions of slowing down your spending.

Because gold has value and uses independent of its status as currency? Hell, wasn't that your original point, that gold has value and uses beyond "people want it?"

Flip it around now: gold has uses independent of it's value of currency and is already highly valued; why would you want to artificially restrict the supply by having a large portion of it tied up in currency? Unless you already have large stocks of it and are personally enriched by said supply restriction raising its price.

Governments are not saving it for their computers down the road. They are saving it because it is a store of wealth.

Wait, I thought the value of gold currency was intrinsic, not ascribed to it by how much the government said it was worth? You can't have it both ways.

A mint isn't having it both ways chief.

Gold is intrinsic, it has value in and of itself. But if you are using it as a money to which there is a supply you still want some measure of regulation over it. Too much gold at one time you end up like Spain after conquering the America's.

[georgie_leech]

When medicine wasn't "for profit" and we had incentive to find cures... sure. That has not been the case since the 60's.

Yeah, no. Polio is an ongoing process throughout the world, even as it's been eliminated DURING YOUR LIFETIME in North America. The Global Polio Eradication Initiative was signed into being in 1988 to eradicate it from the rest of the world.

I repeat, in the last 30 years a debilitating disease was all but eliminated across the globe.There were 37 cases in 2016. Worldwide. Thirty. Seven. You don't get to ignore this, this is happening right now. I can handle ignorance of economic matters, and even cynicism about the rich. Pelor knows they deserve it. But by the brass balls of Ifrit, you do NOT get to ignore it when people across the globe come together to end a terrible problem, and win.

[2D8HP]

Blimey, a faboulous furry freak brothers misquote!

How old are you?

When I was a kid in the 1970's my Dad had a poster with "Freewheelin' Franklin" and the original quote ("money" instead of "gold", and a different four letter word, that is not gold, for "potatoes").

I learned to read from the "Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers" comix that were lying around.
Still pretty funny if you read them today, but I wouldn't let my kids read them yet!
So on topic (I guess);
Favorite 1960's and 1970's "underground comix":
Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers

Spoiler: Comix Panels

Show

[Erys]

Yeah, no. Polio is an ongoing process throughout the world, even as it's been eliminated DURING YOUR LIFETIME in North America. The Global Polio Eradication Initiative was signed into being in 1988 to eradicate it from the rest of the world.

I repeat, in the last 30 years a debilitating disease was all but eliminated across the globe.There were 37 cases in 2016. Worldwide. Thirty. Seven. You don't get to ignore this, this is happening right now. I can handle ignorance of economic matters, and even cynicism about the rich. Pelor knows they deserve it. But by the brass balls of Ifrit, you do NOT get to ignore it when people across the globe come together to end a terrible problem, and win.

I feel it is rather disingenuous to tout the work of world organizations and act like they represent the entirety of the 'for-profit' healthcare situation in America.

Par for course, but still duplicitous.

My aim here was progress, as it is clear that there is a lot of bad info floating around about gold and intrinsic currencies. But going off topic makes you feel like you "won" or something, so be it.

[georgie_leech]

Organizations funded by the fiat money you continue to decry as inherently evil, but fine.

Alright then, bare basics here: Does "Intrinsic" currency have value derived from it's minting (that is, the government saying "this has value as currency"), or because of the value of the thing it's made of?

[Erys]

Organizations funded by the fiat money you continue to decry as inherently evil, but fine.

Alright then, bare basics here: Does "Intrinsic" currency have value derived from it's minting (that is, the government saying "this has value as currency"), or because of the value of the thing it's made of?

People can do good things even within a bad monetary system. The same kind of campaign could easily have happen with gold at the helm too.

An intrinsic currency's value is in the commodity, i.e.: gold/silver.

Coinage is simply a tool for regulating said currency. After all, too much money in a money supply has disastrous consequences.

[georgie_leech]

So for simplicity's sake, let's have a coin be, by mass, 50/50 gold and some other useless slag that has no monetary value other than to serve as part of the coinage. Each coin weighs 1/10 of a pound and gold is 20$ a pound. How much is each coin worth?

[factotum]

Also: fiat money is the devil. But, that is a discussion for another thread (and probably another forum).

This was 13 pages ago and this discussion appears to still be happening on this thread, and perforce on this forum...

[Ron Miel]

Wait, I thought the value of gold currency was intrinsic, not ascribed to it by how much the government said it was worth? You can't have it both ways.

There is no contradiction there. A currency based on gold coinage will still need an official mint. Pure gold is too soft, it needs to be alloyed with a harder metal such as silver. Officially produced coins will have a precise ratio of gold to silver, and a precisely measured quantity of metal. You can't have people making their own coins with a higher proportion of silver and a smaller size.

[Cazero]

There is no contradiction there. A currency based on gold coinage will still need an official mint. Pure gold is too soft, it needs to be alloyed with a harder metal such as silver. Officially produced coins will have a precise ratio of gold to silver, and a precisely measured quantity of metal. You can't have people making their own coins with a higher proportion of silver and a smaller size.

But since debasement is a thing, the gold in the coin is worth whatever amount the governement says it does. If that's intrinsic value, then intrinsic value is subject to the same kind of arbitrary fiat as fiat money.

[Quebbster]

[Peelee]

When medicine wasn't "for profit" and we had incentive to find cures... sure. That has not been the case since the 60's.

Today I learned that before the 60's, American medical companies were non-profits.

On a mildly related note, Jonas Salk deserves to have his face carved into a goddamn mountain.

[Quebbster]

Today I learned that before the 60's, American medical companies were non-profits.

On a mildly related note, Jonas Salk deserves to have his face carved into a goddamn mountain.

Also, medicine is apparently only practiced in the United States.
Better tell my employers they are running a sham operation...

[Peelee]

Also, medicine is apparently only practiced in the United States.
Better tell my employers they are running a sham operation...

Well, I don't know about countries' medical economics, so I purposely focused narrowly in my reply. And as always on this topic, there's a lot I have to remain silent about.

[Quebbster]

Well, I don't know about countries' medical economics, so I purposely focused narrowly in my reply. And as always on this topic, there's a lot I have to remain silent about.

Well, I don't disagree that the US Medical system is royally f-ed up. But in a global perspective it is only one rather strange fish in a fairly large sea.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On a mildly related note, Jonas Salk deserves to have his face carved into a goddamn mountain.

I once went to a Polio museum, and in the central patio, there was a bust of the guy and a nice statue of an armadillo (cultivating the polio virus in the lab was quite hard, but it seems it happily lived in the footpads of armadillos - go figure).

Also vaguely related, we are also getting ever closer to beating malaria, thanks primarily to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, who have been busy convincing all those evil rich people that run these involved conspiracies to put money into saving millions of people in Africa, South America and South East Asia. It's weird, you'd think that given they are all so busy preventing nine volt batteries from curing cancer, they wouldn't throw billions at the problem of malaria.

---

Apropos of nothing, yesterday I completed the History of Rome podcast (plug), as the last puppet emperor* was exiled. So of course, today I started the Revolutions podcast, by the same author, and it starts with the "Glorious" Revolution. One of the key problems that led to the revolution? Inflation over the previous 100 years had been 600%, but taxation had not been adjusted accordingly (Elizabeth I having used low taxes as a way to curry favour from the nobles), which meant that James Dual Numbers and Charles I struggled under a massive state deficit.

Which is weird, because this is pre-FRB (in fact, it is the tax shenanigans of Charles I that will give rise to FRB in due course), and England was most definitely on gold standard at the time, and yet I have heard somewhere that supposedly, gold standard systems can't have inflation. Curious, huh?

Grey Wolf

*Honestly, he was such a non-entity, as were the previous three or so "Emperors" that I suspect that if he hadn't been called Romulus, and thus provide such a beautiful bookend to Rome's history, most historians would have called it long before that.

[Erys]

This was 13 pages ago and this discussion appears to still be happening on this thread, and perforce on this forum...

Yeah...

It is interesting, back some 15 years ago when I did small currency meet ups/talks most people didn't know what fiat was. Now, fiat money has become a belief structure. If I had to guess the 2008 housing bubble-crash put the economist on damage control and so almost ten year later you get what we have here today.

Where an off the cuff comment turns into a massive discussion in which most are convinced that fiat currency is the only way to have an economy.

So for simplicity's sake, let's have a coin be, by mass, 50/50 gold and some other useless slag that has no monetary value other than to serve as part of the coinage. Each coin weighs 1/10 of a pound and gold is 20$ a pound. How much is each coin worth?

But since debasement is a thing, the gold in the coin is worth whatever amount the governement says it does. If that's intrinsic value, then intrinsic value is subject to the same kind of arbitrary fiat as fiat money.

A coin should be 99.9% pure, and the intrinsic metal within said coin should be one ounce.

That ounce of gold's value should ultimately be decided by the open market- and since gold and silver as commodities are remarkably stable as a general rule of thumb, prices tend to remain stable.

[georgie_leech]

A coin should be 99.9% pure, and the intrinsic metal within said coin should be one ounce.

That ounce of gold's value should ultimately be decided by the open market- and since gold and silver as commodities are remarkably stable as a general rule of thumb, prices tend to remain stable.

I don't see why those matter in the slightest to your point, but fine then. The coin is one ounce, pure gold or as close to it as possible, and gold is arbitrarily $10 an ounce when not in coin form. Is the coin worth more, less, or exactly $10?

[Quebbster]

A coin should be 99.9% pure, and the intrinsic metal within said coin should be one ounce.

That ounce of gold's value should ultimately be decided by the open market- and since gold and silver as commodities are remarkably stable as a general rule of thumb, prices tend to remain stable.

So you want the American Buffalo coin to be the only legal tender in the US?

[martianmister]

It is interesting, back some 15 years ago when I did small currency meet ups/talks most people didn't know what fiat was. Now, fiat money has become a belief structure. If I had to guess the 2008 housing bubble-crash put the economist on damage control and so almost ten year later you get what we have here today.

So, most economists are part of a conspiracy?

[2D8HP]

So you want the American Buffalo coin to be the only legal tender in the US?

One of my Dad's "old-isms" is:

"He holds a nickel so tight, the Buffalo bleeds."

[Peelee]

So, most economists are part of a conspiracy?

And medical researchers.

[2D8HP]

So, most economists are part of a conspiracy?

And medical researchers.

How about plumbers?
(I want to get in on this.)

(Also, I hate fan-fictions, fallacy shaming, linguistics, and sports.l

(Also, vote Greyview!!!)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And medical researchers.

And historians.

After all, the alternative is that maybe, just maybe, he is wrong about the whole thing. And that clearly couldn't possibly be the case.

Grey Wolf

[Erys]

I don't see why those matter in the slightest to your point, but fine then. The coin is one ounce, pure gold or as close to it as possible, and gold is arbitrarily $10 an ounce when not in coin form. Is the coin worth more, less, or exactly $10?

Why would gold be arbitrarily set at $10 an ounce?

For that matter: How can gold be set at and FRN amount if you are on a gold currency?

So you want the American Buffalo coin to be the only legal tender in the US?

I am a fan of Constitutional money (though technically defined a few years later).

It should be noted that the US does still mint gold and silver coins. They are used as stores of wealth, generally.

So, most economists are part of a conspiracy?

Conspiracy? Eh... that word is tossed around too often in the means to make people stop listening to whatever message is being conveyed.

That said, lets look at it from a broader view. Fiat money requires faith and confidence by the people using it. If there is a bank run -> the system will collapse. This is a fact.

Banks/bankers benefit the most from fractional reserve (fiat) banking. They have tons of disposable cash and control the very mechanism that can literally create 9 new dollars for every $10 they are supposed to have.

If you were in their shoes- and events unfolding started to shake the confidence of the very people you depend on to believe in your system... wouldn't you start funding schools to influence curriculum's, maybe fund a few news articles to bolster the image if fiat money, and/or get political people who are viewed as understanding this stuff to follow your script?

It really doesn't take a conspiracy for people to take actions that at in their own best interest, even if it doesn't benefit anyone else at a lower station.

When people claim gold cannot handle a modern economy; my usual suspicion is they have been taught that belief- and didn't come to that conclusion because of self interest and looking at all sides of the discussion.

[georgie_leech]

Why would gold be arbitrarily set at $10 an ounce?

For that matter: How can gold be set at and FRN amount if you are on a gold currency?

It's not "set" in the sense of it being declared from on high, I'm saying that for the purposes of this example, it happens to be worth that much. So if a coin is as close to pure gold as it can get (as per your criteria), weighs 1 ounce (as per your criteria), and gold happens to be worth $10 an ounce (because examples are more clear with numbers instead of "X"), there is $10 worth of gold in the coin. Are these coins worth more than, less than, or exactly $10?

[Erys]

It's not "set" in the sense of it being declared from on high, I'm saying that for the purposes of this example, it happens to be worth that much. So if a coin is as close to pure gold as it can get (as per your criteria), weighs 1 ounce (as per your criteria), and gold happens to be worth $10 an ounce (because examples are more clear with numbers instead of "X"), there is $10 worth of gold in the coin. Are these coins worth more than, less than, or exactly $10?

They are worth their weight in gold. (Or silver, if its a silver coin).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They are worth their weight in gold. (Or silver, if its a silver coin).

Which for the purpose of georgie_leech's example, it's $10/oz. Agreed?

GW

[georgie_leech]

They are worth their weight in gold. (Or silver, if its a silver coin).

Okay. Suddenly, a new mine opens up and it has a massive amount of gold in it. The government still controls minting and coinage, but between jewelry, luxuries like gold candlesticks, and easier access to gold of all kinds, gold in general is now 8$ an ounce. What is the value of the coin now? Still $10? $8? Something else?