Dragon Ball Super

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 113

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Yup, Champa's playing it smart. he ain't touching Jiren. he's reducing numbers, as EVERYONE should.

and so the battle between Caulifla and base Goku begins. yeah, Caulifla, it should be a tip off of how outclassed you are if he is confidently taking you on in base form without even recovering. just saiyan.

at first Caulifla is losing but......as time passes, she learns, and Saiyans with their Zenkai and battle instincts, they learn almost as fast as Hit in a battle. with every thing Goku does, Caulifla gets a little stronger, a little more learned, at a pace no human could ever match. This is the true danger of the saiyans: The ability to adapt and get stronger from any fight with enough time.

Goku's powering up....yup lightning, thats Super Saiyan 2. and yeah, Goku is just base stronger than Caulifla, she is still underestimating him just a little.

No Roshi, Goku's going to win. this is Dragon Ball. we know how it ends. Caulifla is just being played.

Krillin. You have seen fights between Super Saiyan 2's before, this should not be surprising to you, I mean Goku? Vegeta? they probably do that a lot.

"Come on Kale! Lets become 3 together!"- Caulifla. In Bed. Yeah, I couldn't resist, this line is just going down in history as one of the most dirty when taken out of context......

and now Goku is fighting both Caulifla AND Kale. If your opponent is smiling and calls your ally over to the fight so that he can fight both of you, you might want to rethink this.

Champa, it doesn't matter how many super saiyans you have. U7 has GOKU. He is more hax than any other saiyan ever.

Kale then powers up to Berserk again after Goku briefly goes Super Saiyan 3. Okaaayyy?

Tournament Status:
U7: 7/10
U3: 6/10
U2: 5/10
U6: 4/10
U4: 3/10
U11: 3/10
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 28 fighters remaining.

Nothing changed. So its like.......what actually happened this episode? Pretty much nothing substantial. I mean we have Caulifla getting more competent at fighting in subtle ways, but thats it. Yeah, this episode was basically "Lol, I'm Goku I'm going to troll you by pretending to be a threat then flashing SS3 for a moment."

But FUSION! YES! ALL MY YES!

[Rater202]

Didn't someone earlier in the thread mention the boost from Zenkai at Goku's current level is practically non-existent?

If you actually look at the confirmed zenkai taken at times where we know the power level before and after, it seems to be based on a percentage of their total power proportionate to the injury that rendered them "near death" which, despite the description, doesn't actually seem to be literally near death injuries(Zenkai are introduced by Vegeta being significantly stronger after the ass-kicking her got on EArth during the Saiyan saga, but he held on strong for about a week with no medical attention if I've got the time frame right.)

So, If Goku's injuries were severe enough to count towards near death, in either case, he'd have gotten noticibaly stronger, even if he didn't become significantly stronger.

[Lord Raziere]

that and Zenkai boost has inconsistent boosts in power, at one point, goku went from 90,000 PL to 3 million after facing Ginyu. in comparison, Vegeta after being beat up on Earth, he gained PL of 24,000 when he previously had 18,000. so the boost can vary anywhere between "x1.3 perma-boost in power" all the way to "x33.33 perma-boost in power" which is honestly absurd. in the end its a plot device to explain how Saiyans beat you in round two after losing round one if you don't have the sense to kill them before round two happens.

Now imagine that on planet wide scale of idiotic fighters constantly doing that to each other because they find it fun, then imagine those guys eventually attacking everyone else. In that context, Freeza blowing up their planet looks very pragmatically evil rather than puppy-kicking evil.

[Tono]

Spoiler: 113

Show

I love this. It feels like a call back episode. DB's After image, progress to SSJ3 after some really nice fighting, and end with Broly. The only thing I did not like about this episode was the peanut gallery, but what'cha gunna do?

But Goku is such a meta-gamer. He knows exactly how this **** works, and the boost hell get from this. Whis confirms it.

[lord_khaine]

Oh my.. Goku is such a tease.. flashing SS3 just to get the girls worked up.. before powering down again?
That was an purpose!

Now imagine that on planet wide scale of idiotic fighters constantly doing that to each other because they find it fun, then imagine those guys eventually attacking everyone else. In that context, Freeza blowing up their planet looks very pragmatically evil rather than puppy-kicking evil.

I recall a comment about Freeze doing it for Berus, and it certainly sounds likely. The Sayjins are the sort of crazy maniacs a God of Destruction should blow up if he were taking care of his job.

[Anteros]

Zenkai boosts are just arbitrary like every other powerup in the series. At one point they say they no longer benefit from them, but then there's a whole arc after that about Black who gets them despite being in Goku's body and around his level of power.

At this point, the only thing that's consistent is the fact that they're inconsistent.

[Lord Raziere]

Zenkai boosts are just arbitrary like every other powerup in the series. At one point they say they no longer benefit from them, but then there's a whole arc after that about Black who gets them despite being in Goku's body and around his level of power.

At this point, the only thing that's consistent is the fact that they're inconsistent.

Thats Toriyama in general: consistently inconsistent. just remember that this is all based Hindu/Buddhist Mythology, thus everything is a dream, and that Toriyama is the dreaming godhead, complete with Robotoriyama avatar of that dreaming godhead. thus it makes perfect sense.

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler: Episode 113

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But FUSION! YES! ALL MY YES!

Spoiler: Episode 114

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How do fused characters count toward the totals? If two U7 fighters fuse, would they be considered to have 7 fighters or 6? Would a fused character even be legitimate, not being represented on Zeno's godpad?

[Mikeavelli]

Spoiler: Episode 114

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How do fused characters count toward the totals? If two U7 fighters fuse, would they be considered to have 7 fighters or 6? Would a fused character even be legitimate, not being represented on Zeno's godpad?

Spoiler: 114

Show

Fused characters should be fine with the rules. If they get ringed-out while fused Zeno will just press two buttons.

Remember that Piccolo is actually 3 Namekians fused into one body. I remember a discussion a while back about how if Piccolo was taking the threat of universe destruction seriously he should have found even more Namekians to fuse with in order to power himself up. It might end up being the case that the two nameless U6 Namekians did exactly this.

[The Troubadour]

Remember that Piccolo is actually 3 Namekians fused into one body. I remember a discussion a while back about how if Piccolo was taking the threat of universe destruction seriously he should have found even more Namekians to fuse with in order to power himself up. It might end up being the case that the two nameless U6 Namekians did exactly this.

More like two Namekians in one body - the Nameless Namekian and Nail. Also, the power of a fusion depends directly on the power of the fused members,* and I really doubt there's any Namekian left even close to having enough power to contribute any amount at all to Piccolo's power level.

* You can see it, for instance, in how Goku thinks that if he fuses with Hercule he will probably become weaker, instead of stronger.

[Mikeavelli]

Eh, by the time they re-fuse they're essentially two separate people. I suppose if Piccolo and Kami were the only fusion involved here it would be a relevant loophole in the rules, but the inclusion of Nail makes it a moot point.

Namekian fusion doesn't seem to follow the same rules as normal fusion. Nail was clearly inferior to Freeza's first form, but he provided enough of a boost to put Piccolo (whose last actual battle consisted of not even being as strong as Nappa) in the same league as Freeza's second form.

Kami hadn't been relevant in battle since Dragonball as far as power level goes, but fusing with Piccolo provided enough of a boost to put them above SSJ1 levels of strength. It stands to reason that gobbling up more Namekians would work better than adding more mooks to a conventional fusion.

For a counter-example: Namekian fusion seems to work more along the lines of what Cell did, where eating a bunch of nameless humans still provided him with a meaningful increase in Power Level, despite the fact that none of them were individually powerful.

[The Troubadour]

Eh, by the time they re-fuse they're essentially two separate people.

True, which does influence the Nameless Namekian's personality - hence why he prefers to still be called Piccolo, for instance -, but we can see in the scenes immediately after the fusion that he does consider himself to be a single entity, instead of just Piccolo with a power upgrade. But yeah, I doubt that is relevant to this tournament, otherwise someone probably would have already brought it up.

Namekian fusion doesn't seem to follow the same rules as normal fusion. Nail was clearly inferior to Freeza's first form, but he provided enough of a boost to put Piccolo (whose last actual battle consisted of not even being as strong as Nappa) in the same league as Freeza's second form.

Fusions in general (as opposed to things like Buu's absorption) don't seem to be an additive boost, they seem to work more like some sort of multiplier (possibly an exponential one?). I mean, Gotenks is a whole lot stronger than just the sum of both Goten and Trunks, for example. Plus, we don't know how much stronger Piccolo got after training with King Kai; all we know is that Nail says that, if he was still a single being, he might have been able to defeat Freeza.

Also, Kami and Piccolo's fusion was different in that it was two halves of a person becoming a single one again, not a fusion of two different people, which might make it work differently from regular Namekian fusions.

For a counter-example: Namekian fusion seems to work more along the lines of what Cell did [...]

I don't think it does. For one, Cell's ability at that stage seems to directly convert people into energy and absorb them, and the most it did was bring him back to his original power level from before he travelled through time, while both Nail and Kami say they're going to act more like catalysts to boost Piccolo's power.

Also, do we even know if regular Namekians can fuse? Nail could, but he was also the last Namekian Warrior.

[The Troubadour]

Apropos of nothing, I really like the Super Saiyan 3 transformation. It looks bestial and dangerous, as befits the Saiyan race, and the increased stamina expenditure feels appropriate as a "balancing" factor. The base Super Saiyan transformation is the most classic one, and rightfully so, but I think SS3 is my favourite.

[Lemmy]

that and Zenkai boost has inconsistent boosts in power, at one point, goku went from 90,000 PL to 3 million after facing Ginyu. in comparison, Vegeta after being beat up on Earth, he gained PL of 24,000 when he previously had 18,000. so the boost can vary anywhere between "x1.3 perma-boost in power" all the way to "x33.33 perma-boost in power" which is honestly absurd. in the end its a plot device to explain how Saiyans beat you in round two after losing round one if you don't have the sense to kill them before round two happens.

Now imagine that on planet wide scale of idiotic fighters constantly doing that to each other because they find it fun, then imagine those guys eventually attacking everyone else. In that context, Freeza blowing up their planet looks very pragmatically evil rather than puppy-kicking evil.

To be fair, we really should take any "power level reading" not explicitly stated in the manga/anime with a grain of salt... They were probably made up "calculated" as an interesting bit of trivia just to please the fans at a time.. The last time any power level is given an accurate number is when Freeza mentions his 2nd form has a power level of 1 million. And I think one of Freeza's/Kind Cold's men tries to read Trunks' power, but he's suppressing it and easily blow up the scouters once he starts putting some effort.

- - -

Besides , clearly, power ups in DB work like MMORPG expansions... Once a new level is made available (by someone reaching it), then everyone can go to similar levels very, very quickly... That's how Krillin suddenly becomes able to spar with SSJ Goten/Trunks (whoc an spar with #18)... And of course, how Roshi is suddenly super-powerful despite having been retired and weaker than every other warrior in the game since before the end of the original series!

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler: Episode 114

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Here's the more important questions...

Will fusion be counted as against the rules of the tournament? Probably not, it would be a massive anti-climax if it did.

More importantly...Kale and Caulifla seem to fuse via Potara earrings...where the HELL are they going to get those from that doesn't count as outside interference?

And, will they be counted as a weapon? Or just a tool like the Mafuba bottle?

[Starwulf]

Spoiler

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Can I ask where in the heck you guys are getting this fusion idea from? I've watched the preview 5 times now, and there is no indication of fusion anywhere. The very last image is of Kale out of her SSJ form, looking happy/confident, but I see absolutely zero traces of Caulifla there at all. I'm really, really confused here. How would they even know fusion anyways? They have no potara earrings, and it seems unlikely they've learned it from their kai's, as it doesn't appear they have all that much of a relationship with them.

Alright, watched it a few more times. I do see the earrings change on Kale, but her face still looks like her's entirely to me. Is there somewhere besides the preview that specifically says fusion is going to happen? I know it's weird that the earrings change, but I'm just not seeing any change that would indicate fusion to me.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Spoiler

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Can I ask where in the heck you guys are getting this fusion idea from? I've watched the preview 5 times now, and there is no indication of fusion anywhere. The very last image is of Kale out of her SSJ form, looking happy/confident, but I see absolutely zero traces of Caulifla there at all. I'm really, really confused here. How would they even know fusion anyways? They have no potara earrings, and it seems unlikely they've learned it from their kai's, as it doesn't appear they have all that much of a relationship with them.

Alright, watched it a few more times. I do see the earrings change on Kale, but her face still looks like her's entirely to me. Is there somewhere besides the preview that specifically says fusion is going to happen? I know it's weird that the earrings change, but I'm just not seeing any change that would indicate fusion to me.

Spoiler: 114

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Part of that is because Universe 6 saiyans suffer from a serious case of 'same face' from their different designs. That said the last shot strikes me as not Kale at all, something feels really off about the whole thing.

Plus the title of the episode.

[Starwulf]

Spoiler: 114

Show

Part of that is because Universe 6 saiyans suffer from a serious case of 'same face' from their different designs. That said the last shot strikes me as not Kale at all, something feels really off about the whole thing.

Plus the title of the episode.

What's the title of next weeks episode? Where I watch doesn't show the title for it, just gives the preview and that's it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

What's the title of next weeks episode? Where I watch doesn't show the title for it, just gives the preview and that's it.

"Explosive Birth of a New Super Warrior/Fighter"

[Xihirli]

Every time I see the god form it just makes me wonder how much better Super might have been if they'd just never invented Blue. If the big reveal at Resurrection F was that Goku and Vegeta had learned to channel the God form at will instead of the new form that was just confusing, brought up questions, and didn't look as good anyway.
Since Blue was basically used instead of the God form, they could have had exactly the same story up until now, just with God instead of Blue.

[Rater202]

Every time I see the god form it just makes me wonder how much better Super might have been if they'd just never invented Blue. If the big reveal at Resurrection F was that Goku and Vegeta had learned to channel the God form at will instead of the new form that was just confusing, brought up questions, and didn't look as good anyway.
Since Blue was basically used instead of the God form, they could have had exactly the same story up until now, just with God instead of Blue.

Problem: Godform was constantly making goku stronger and he kept that proportionate power when he powered down.

If Goku and Veeta used SS God every time they used Blue, the power scaling would be even more ridiculous than it already is as Goku rapidly began to eclipse the gods.

[Xihirli]

It was a set power growth with a limit.
If it made him stronger every time he used it, he would turn it on all the time, since we know he can.

[Rater202]

It was a set power growth with a limit.
If it made him stronger every time he used it, he would turn it on all the time, since we know he can.

Goku hated SS God. He felt that he didn't earn the power it gave him--that it was just a cheap trick and a free upgrade.

Goku would rather earn his power-ups with training, get his ass kicked, or crazy risky things that will exhaust or almost kill him.(The closest to wanting free power he came to was wanting the Sacred Water at the top of Korin's tower, and you've got to earn the water by climbing the impossibly tall tower and taking the water from the kitty.)

Even if Goku's "can use SS G at will" form is identical to the form from the ritual, complete with power up every time, Goku wouldn't use it unless he had to.

[Anteros]

I think it's a lot more likely that SSG has some sort of cap than Goku suddenly got tired of completely unearned powerups. He might not like them as much as training and earning the power, but he's shown himself perfectly willing to use them multiple times now.

[Rater202]

I think it's a lot more likely that SSG has some sort of cap than Goku suddenly got tired of completely unearned powerups. He might not like them as much as training and earning the power, but he's shown himself perfectly willing to use them multiple times now.

Name all of them, excluding God.

Becuase all I can think of would be the Scared Water and Super Holy Water. The first one he had to earn the right to drink and that was the real training. The second almost killed him, so I'd say he earned it.

[Anteros]

Name all of them, excluding God.

Becuase all I can think of would be the Scared Water and Super Holy Water. The first one he had to earn the right to drink and that was the real training. The second almost killed him, so I'd say he earned it.

So...name them all except for the three that you're excluding for no reason other than they prove my point? Haha, sure. That seems entirely reasonable.

[Rater202]

So...name them all except for the three that you're excluding for no reason other than they prove my point? Haha, sure. That seems entirely reasonable.

How does "gives you a power-up once you complete the difficult trial to earn it and oops, sorry, tis' just tap water the trial was the real power up becuase training" and "gives you a power up but it's a deadly posion that will almost kill you" prove your point that Goku is willing to take free power ups?

Regardless, I only said to exclude God. I then explained that the only other non-training Power-ups I remember Goku taking were the one where he had to "climb an impossibly tall tower several times and snatch it from the hands of the kitty who was faster and more agile than him to earn"(which barely counts becuase it was a scam and it was the trial that madehim stronger) and the deadly poison that almost killed him when he drank it, and I'd argue that any power up that almost kills you wasn't free.

I'm asking you to cite an example that Goku didn't earn and that didn't have ridiculous risks. You know, one that's actually a free power up. Other than God, since that's the data point we both know about.

[Xihirli]

You know God is just a form now, right? He can become it at will. His problem before was that it was a power he couldn't reach on his own, but now it's all his. He can attain the form whenever he wants.

[Spamotron]

Spoiler: speculation based on 114

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The Goku Black arc showed that a Potara fusion can end early if the earrings are overloaded with too much power. I'm guessing Goku is going to goad Kefla into powering up to her maximum breaking the fusion.

[Anteros]

How does "gives you a power-up once you complete the difficult trial to earn it and oops, sorry, tis' just tap water the trial was the real power up becuase training" and "gives you a power up but it's a deadly posion that will almost kill you" prove your point that Goku is willing to take free power ups?

Regardless, I only said to exclude God. I then explained that the only other non-training Power-ups I remember Goku taking were the one where he had to "climb an impossibly tall tower several times and snatch it from the hands of the kitty who was faster and more agile than him to earn"(which barely counts becuase it was a scam and it was the trial that madehim stronger) and the deadly poison that almost killed him when he drank it, and I'd argue that any power up that almost kills you wasn't free.

I'm asking you to cite an example that Goku didn't earn and that didn't have ridiculous risks. You know, one that's actually a free power up. Other than God, since that's the data point we both know about.

You're giving some extremely weak reasoning why these examples don't apply. "He had to climb a tower to get it" isn't compelling to me when it's still basically just drinking some water to double your power. If you want to believe that Goku has access to literally infinite power and simply doesn't use it for some reason then fine, but I don't think most other people are going to buy that.

If he was actually the way you view him, then he would view climbing the tower itself as training and turn down the water on top.