[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[EldritchWeaver]

I also think it is high time that we get an additional PDF update or in the very least a copy of the internal errata document. I like EldritchWeaver keep on happening upon errors and end up going through several thread posts before finding out that it was already reported.

Is Alchemy's poison DC supposed to be based on Craft ranks instead of BAB?

Case in point: legomaster00156's report. A dev commented that all spheres which grant skill ranks scale from those ranks in general, but such a rule is missing in the current PDF.

[RedMop]

Is Alchemy's poison DC supposed to be based on Craft ranks instead of BAB?

Yes. That one is in the errata already.

[zautos]

Let me try to answer some questions here.

1/2. It's balanced with the system as a whole rather than the classes. As pointed out, Pathfinder's classes don't have a great internal balance, and at some point, we have to look at things and ask where we should be aiming, and which parts of the system just aren't working. For example, the striker is almost certainly better than the fighter, the armiger is better than the swashbuckler, the technician is better than the rogue, and we're entirely fine with that. Classes that have outdated design given the system and how its evolved need to be pushed forward, which is why an archetyped SoM fighter will probably be better than a core fighter; because leaving it at core state would be painfully weak, as it is at current (core fighter is an issue here). There's also a lot of feats that are not worth what's gained, especially past core. Many feats have lost a lot of value in how they're used due to newer options, which is why we have done things the way we have.

So to answer fully, SoM isn't particularly balanced with Core Martials in a core only setting, but I would say it's balanced against the expanded options which are available with other paizo material, like mutagenic warrior, AWT, and such.

3. The reason why feats only give one talent is because of the reasons you're stating, that you're allowed to control their acquisition rather than the standard layout that most of them have. That's a lot more powerful than getting them when mandated, which is why the feat only gives a single talent. We took into account the customization allowed, and balanced against that.

4/5: Not really my area of expertise, pinged the others.

6. That's because it also locks the class out of a large amount of archetypes as well, and we wanted to account for that. Vigilante specialization is a very 'live or die' class feature for the vigilante, and because we're taking it away, we wanted to compensate it with something that felt appropriate.

This is an reply to "So to answer fully, SoM isn't particularly balanced with Core Martials in a core only setting, but I would say it's balanced against the expanded options which are available with other paizo material, like mutagenic warrior, AWT, and such."

So i took a look.
A coiled blade loses 6 feats and gain 20 talents
A normal Fighter can exchange all his normal feats to gain 20 tallants. Don’t think a lot of other classes will exchange their feats for tallants like this. Probably 5 to 10 or 7 to 15.
So the coiled blade echanges 4 fewer feats.

So is Tension from Coiled blade + 4 extra feats as good as Mutation and discoveries. I don’t know. it probably depends on what you want to do. I would pick the coiled blade but others might pick the mutation warrior

If we compare a mutation warrior without spheres of might.
We have a different story. Then the difference is huge.

Mutagen might be able to fill in the gap when it’s 4 feats. But now it’s more like 14 feats(20 tallants-6 feats).

[sunderedhero]

Case in point: legomaster00156's report. A dev commented that all spheres which grant skill ranks scale from those ranks in general, but such a rule is missing in the current PDF.

For clarity sake, the following spheres have normal talents or abilities that run off of BAB despite giving skill ranks: Alchemy(Poison), Beastmastery, Fencing, Gladiator, and Scoundrel. I'm not sure if Legendary Talents are also supposed to follow this rule but here's a list of ones that run off of BAB despite giving skill ranks: Athletics, Beastmastery, Fencing, Gladiator, and Warleader.

Edit: Side note, why is there no "Smash from the Air"-like legendary talent upgrade for the Duelist spheres' Defensive Slice?

[Wartex1]

Some of the archetypes have a feature which makes certain spheres function with their class level instead of BAB.

One of those is the Beastmaster Hunter, which does it for the Beastmaster Sphere, but with it also using skills for scaling, what's the point of the feature?

[sunderedhero]

Duelist- Slickened Grip- Does the increased damage from Open Vein and other effects increase the penalty from Slickened Grip or should it only count the bleed damage from the base sphere ability?

This also needs to be clarified for the "Death By A Thousand Cuts" ability Duelist Sphere Specialization of the Conscript class DC.

Also the "Practitioner Unarmed Damage" table on page 11/12 says that it runs off of the number of "unarmed spheres and talents they possess" but the table says "Levels"

And a question, when a spell caster trades in their spellcasting for combat training, do they use their spellcasting modifier as their practitioner modifier?

Edit: I'm confused by this line in the Boxing Sphere-Launching Uppercut (counter) talent, "For every 4 points of base attack bonus you possess, you may launch a creature 10 ft. further into the air.". What exactly does this do? Is this an automatic extra movement on enemies and allies?

[Ssalarn]

This also needs to be clarified for the "Death By A Thousand Cuts" ability Duelist Sphere Specialization of the Conscript class DC.

As it says in the abilities, it's based on the amount of bleed damage currently being taken by the target.

And a question, when a spell caster trades in their spellcasting for combat training, do they use their spellcasting modifier as their practitioner modifier?

Yes. As we mentioned a couple pages ago, this has already been added to the errata and will be reflected in the update.

On that note, we've gotten to the point where most of the feedback we're getting is repetitions of questions we've already fielded, so our focus now is going to be in reviewing our errata list and getting the update pushed out. Thank you everyone for your time and feedback!

[sunderedhero]

As it says in the abilities, it's based on the amount of bleed damage currently being taken by the target.

The problem is that with the Open Vein and Finger Cutter talents the DC scales very fast. At 4th level on a disarm you would do 2d4+4 bleed damage, which would mean the DC is 14+2d4+4 average of 23, at 20th level it'd be 30+6d4+12 average of 57. Don't you think this is a problem?

Also I added this to the last post as an edit, but I'll repeat it here:
I'm confused by this line in the Boxing Sphere-Launching Uppercut (counter) talent, "For every 4 points of base attack bonus you possess, you may launch a creature 10 ft. further into the air.". What exactly does this do? Is this an automatic extra movement on enemies and allies?

so our focus now is going to be in reviewing our errata list and getting the update pushed out. Thank you everyone for your time and feedback!

Snazzy! Any idea how long after the errata comes out will the Hero Labs files drop?

[RedMop]

The Sentinel archetype, Adroit Warden's ability, Agile Defender, should probably have a note about replacing Armor Knight.

[Quarian Rex]

On that note, we've gotten to the point where most of the feedback we're getting is repetitions of questions we've already fielded, so our focus now is going to be in reviewing our errata list and getting the update pushed out. Thank you everyone for your time and feedback!

Would you mind releasing the current errata list? Both to avoid repetition and to see what has/hasn't been addressed. Pretty please?

[zautos]

Can you both sacrifice feats to gain talents and have a practitioner class?
hoiw would this work?

[EldritchWeaver]

Any reason, why sphere-specific drawbacks are prescribing often the bonus talent you get? For example, Scout has other non-scout talents you could take instead (i.e. Heightened Awareness). I think that those restrictions prevent some character concepts, so they should be evaluated if they can't be made less strict.

[zautos]

I'm reading on spheresofpower.wikidot

Flexible Cover
As an immediate action, you may change the selected edge of your space even when it is not your turn. If you expend martial focus, you may use this talent as an immediate action.
So expending martial focus would do nothing here.

[NomGarret]

Can you both sacrifice feats to gain talents and have a practitioner class?
hoiw would this work?

Generally, no. You are actually swapping the feats for a progression, not an additional progression. Besides, there's an explicit "Characters who already have the combat training class feature cannot exchange their feats for an additional progression."

Now, where it gets a little weird is when a character who swaps for progression multiclasses into a practitioner. I can't spot a ruling for this, but I'd wager the feat-for-talent swap stops at that point.

[Rungo]

Flexible Cover
As an immediate action, you may change the selected edge of your space even when it is not your turn. If you expend martial focus, you may use this talent as an immediate action.
So expending martial focus would do nothing here.

You have to look at the entire Talent, not just those two sentences.

You may spend a move action to use a shield to grant you cover until the beginning of your next turn. Bucklers, heavy shields, and light shields provide partial cover while tower shields provide total cover. When using a shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain cover for attacks that pass through this edge. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. Cover granted this way is insufficient to enable you to make a Stealth check to hide and the shield may be targeted as an attended object.

As an immediate action, you may change the selected edge of your space even when it is not your turn. If you expend martial focus, you may use this talent as an immediate action.

You can always change the direction from which you have cover as an Immediate action, once your shield is down. But by expending martial focus, you get to place the shield down as an Immediate action, which would normally take up a Move action during your own turn.

[zautos]

Generally, no. You are actually swapping the feats for a progression, not an additional progression. Besides, there's an explicit "Characters who already have the combat training class feature cannot exchange their feats for an additional progression."

Now, where it gets a little weird is when a character who swaps for progression multiclasses into a practitioner. I can't spot a ruling for this, but I'd wager the feat-for-talent swap stops at that point.

If if i play a charakter that takes level 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17 19. as blacksmith or something and normal fighter on the rest of the level.

Then trayd out all my normal feats for tallants. But becouse i tak blacksmith at udd levels i lose no feats and gain tallants for free on eaven levels.

[Adam Meyers]

Quick questions: Can a Technician's Integrated Gun/Shield/Weapon incorporate an Improved item of the category? Like can the Integrated Gun on an Improved Weapon be an Improved Coat Pistol? Also, can Gauntlets be Improved as either Weapons or Gloves similar to how Shields can be Improved as either Weapons or Shields?

One more for the Custom Training talent: if I wanted to select a firearm, is that 2 points for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Pistol or 2 points for Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Firearms? I ask because normally you can just take EWP: Firearms and gain proficiency with all firearms including siege weapons.

We played with disallowing multiple integrated improved items, but I believe we stopped that and allow all integrated items to be improved things. And yeah; guantlets could be a weapon or gloves.

You would have to become proficient with pistol on its own if you went the custom training route.

[pfm1995]

Regarding the Technician's Integrated Weapon/Gun/Shield: Would these count as double weapons, for the purpose of the Dual Wielding sphere?

[torrasque666]

We played with disallowing multiple integrated improved items, but I believe we stopped that and allow all integrated items to be improved things. And yeah; guantlets could be a weapon or gloves.

Further question. Is that an either/or on the gauntlets or can they be improved gloves at the same time as improved weapons?

Additional: Can a battlefield tinker incorporate unarmed or natural attacks into their improbable weapon? Also, unless I'm reading it poorly, their Improbable Weapon still grants talents right?

[pfm1995]

Another, thornier, technician question:

Suppose I'm a Technician with a Mechanical Arm Independent Invention, with the Suit improvement. Furthermore, I'm wearing it right now. If I use a talent that grants temp HP (for example, the base ability of the Berserker Sphere), do I gain the temp HP or does the invention?

The section that gives me hope it's the suit is:

Once inside, the pilot can control the vehicle’s movements and actions as if he himself were the invention (moving the invention as a move action, attacking with a weapon it possesses as a standard action, etc.).

[Wartex1]

I have a question about Champions of the Spheres.

Are the more martial-leaning SoP classes (Shifter, Armorist) getting full updates to work with Spheres of Might or just archetypes that make them practitioners in addition to casters?

[EldritchWeaver]

It is extremely unlikely that there any updates planned for the martial-ly SoP classes, which aren't archetypes, for the simple reason that both systems are supposed to be able to be used separately.

[stack]

Additional: Can a battlefield tinker incorporate unarmed or natural attacks into their improbable weapon? Also, unless I'm reading it poorly, their Improbable Weapon still grants talents right?

No to unarmed strikes and natural weapons, yes it still grants talents.

I have a question about Champions of the Spheres.

Are the more martial-leaning SoP classes (Shifter, Armorist) getting full updates to work with Spheres of Might or just archetypes that make them practitioners in addition to casters?

No, just archetypes. i suppose you could treat the archetypes as an 'alternate base class', but actually printing them that way would take more space for limited benefit.

[Wartex1]

Can I stack sphere effects that key off of the same action (say, Attack Action for Fencing/Duelist), or do I have to pick and choose?

What about spheres which say "as a special attack action?" Can I stack one of those with abilities that activate from Attack Actions?

[stack]

Can I stack sphere effects that key off of the same action (say, Attack Action for Fencing/Duelist), or do I have to pick and choose?

What about spheres which say "as a special attack action?" Can I stack one of those with abilities that activate from Attack Actions?

Glossary in the front of the book answers these questions.

Attack action: An attack action is a type of standard action.
Some combat options can modify only this specific sort
of action. When taking an attack action, you can apply all appropriate
options that modify an attack action. Thus, you can
apply both the Boxing sphere’s counter punch and Vital Strike to
the same attack, as both modify an attack action. You can apply
these to any combat option that takes the place of an attack
made using an attack action (such as the trip combat maneuver),
though options that increase damage don’t cause attacks
to deal damage if they wouldn’t otherwise do so (such as Vital
Strike and trip).
You can’t combine options that modify attack actions with
standard actions that aren’t attack actions, such as Cleave."
...
Special Attack Action: A special attack action represents
a unique method of making an attack. These special attack actions
are granted by certain spheres and talents, and whenever
a creature makes an attack action, they may choose to perform
a special attack action they know, assuming they meet that special
attack action’s requirements. A special attack action can
be augmented by feats and talents just as if it were any other
attack action, but a creature cannot perform more than one
special attack action at a time. (Thus, if a character trained in
both the Barrage sphere and the Sniper sphere makes an attack
action, they may choose to perform a barrage or a deadly shot,
but not both.)

Since I keep getting this question, I assume people either skip the glossary or are only reading the wiki and that section isn't obvious.

[RedMop]

Might I suggest a minor change to the Alchemy sphere?

This is for both Formulae and Poison.

Instead of 15 min for each item (which would total up to 6 hours), maybe make it 15 min per type made. Example: I am level 10 with 2 formulae, letting me have up to 7 total formulae created at a time. I want to make 5 Salve and 2 Pancea. The current rule takes 1 hour and 45 min to make 7 formulae. My suggestion would mean this would take 30 min. At level 20, I could make 12. I want to make 9 Salve and 3 Pancea would take 3 hours. My suggestion would mean it still takes 30 min.

Think of it as simply doubling a recipe.

[Domar]

The crafting times for the Alchemy sphere make it non viable to specialize in. It can take over 40 hours to craft all your items. They will fall apart before you're finished. It should never take more than 1 hour to craft everything under any circumstance.

[RedMop]

The crafting times for the Alchemy sphere make it non viable to specialize in. It can take over 40 hours to craft all your items. They will fall apart before you're finished. It should never take more than 1 hour to craft everything under any circumstance.

How are you getting over 40? I'm only getting 21 hours max. Granted, that leaves 2 hours for sleeping (ring of sustenance) and 1 hour for actually adventuring.

Total formulae (24) + 1/2 ranks (20/2) + selections (14)
Total toxin (18) = ranks (20/2) + selections (8)
Total formulae and toxin = 42
Crafting w/o alchemist lab (1260 min or 21 hours) = 42 * 30
Crafting w/ alchemist lab (630 min or 10.5 hours) = 42 * 15

[Domar]

The Alchemy Conscript gets double items.

[Ilorin Lorati]

The crafting times for the Alchemy sphere make it non viable to specialize in. It can take over 40 hours to craft all your items. They will fall apart before you're finished. It should never take more than 1 hour to craft everything under any circumstance.

This was something spoken of quite a bit when playtest was still open, and Ssalarn stated that they were looking at scaling up production based on the HD of the crafter to 1 + 1/4 HD per creation time, which he calculated at about 2 hours for a Conscript. I'm not sure what happened.