How does a wizard fight an army?

[Dudewithknives]

To break it down in simplest terms.

Classes that can win with ease.
Moon Druid
Because at level 20 they are not dieing unless you can cut through their WS HP and their normal class HP, and they will start in a wildshape form. If they are smart it will be an earth elemental.

Classes that can win with a little luck or strategy.
Any Bard, Warlock, Druid, Sorcerer (only if they took Wish as their 9th level spell), or Wizard that lives long enough to get off a spell.
Cleric but only the arcana domain ones.

This is because those classes can pick the best 9th level spells.

Classes that could not win:
All non-full casters and Clerics that are not Arcana Domain.

[JackPhoenix]

To break it down in simplest terms.

Classes that can win with ease.
Moon Druid
Because at level 20 they are not dieing unless you can cut through their WS HP and their normal class HP, and they will start in a wildshape form. If they are smart it will be an earth elemental.

Classes that can win with a little luck or strategy.
Any Bard, Warlock, Druid, Sorcerer (only if they took Wish as their 9th level spell), or Wizard that lives long enough to get off a spell.
Cleric but only the arcana domain ones.

This is because those classes can pick the best 9th level spells.

Classes that could not win:
All non-full casters and Clerics that are not Arcana Domain.

Any cleric has Divine Intervention with 100% success chance. "Remove enemy army" is well within the capabilities of most deities.

[Dudewithknives]

Any cleric has Divine Intervention with 100% success chance. "Remove enemy army" is well within the capabilities of most deities.

That ability is 100% up to DM interpretation and is not reliable.

One DM might have the diety themself come down from the heavens and fight with you, another one might just give you an automatic 20 on your next attack roll, all it says is that copying a cleric spell or domain spell is appropriate.

I have never seen a DM that would let you wipe out an army with it.

Most DMs just let you use any cleric spell for free, which won't help because clerics do not get the broken spells the arcane casters get or the one or two that druids get that are amazing.

[RickAllison]

A Rogue 20 actually stands a fairly glorious chance IF they do not directly engage. A high-level rogue can nickel-and-dime the army, and I don't think they can actually track down the darn guy. How do you take down someone who can A) outrun you, B) Hide so well that you can't spot them on a 20, and C) has a variety of other powerful features that further skew the game in their favor.

Assassin or Mastermind? Sow dissent within their ranks (funnily enough, the assassination tricks actually go to waste). Arcane Trickster? I don't think I need to explain why spells are good. Thief? He gets to take two turns while you are still reeling, and likely has powerful magic items! Scout can ambush all day long. Swashbuckler and Inquisitive get the short stick here, I think, as they are better against single opponents.

[Jack Bitters]

Hey, we can make a case for Cleric. All you have to do is cast Spirit Guardians and then Sanctuary and run around semi-invincible while your ancestors decimate their ranks. Next, be a life cleric and cast Regeneration on yourself. You'll heal for 10 hp/turn.

If we assume somehow that the enemy only hits on a 20 and their wisdom save is effectively +0 while your DC is 19, then their chance to damage you is 1/4000. Damage done is a crit, being 10 damage total.

Only thing wrong with this is that everyone can just kite the cleric around for days. Clerics are notoriously slow, both in walking speed and in religious reform.

[Tespri]

Not true, and video games are irrelevant for 5e.



Adventurers are not the only ones, but they're among the only ones. The reason to assume that is called "reading the books".



You're arguing the chances of an army vs a level 20 adventurer. Legendary monsters are in the same weight class, if not higher.



No they wouldn't. Yes, Dragonborn got their breath weapons, but once it's used up their mooks are just as tough as any humanoid mooks, and they're far less numerous than humans or dwarves.




We were talking about a level 20 magic user, which is just one order of magnitude less rare than a Tarrasque.

So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat.



I'm not claiming monsters and magic users are rare. I'm claiming *very powerful* monsters and magic users are rare.

As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber.



Let's see what the last official campaign says about it, then:






Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort.

As you can see, the number of veterans is between ~10% and ~30% of the number of guards (or tribal warriors, who have the same CR).

And again, later:





So here you go. Guards as the most common professional soldiers AND mercenaries.

"Not true, and video games are irrelevant for 5e."
You're ignoring 5e adventures as well. They have magic and monsters almost all the time. I don't know where you pull this off that DnD suddenly became low magic realm.

"Adventurers are not the only ones, but they're among the only ones. The reason to assume that is called "reading the books"."
In which book they state that only adventures are powerful?

"You're arguing the chances of an army vs a level 20 adventurer. Legendary monsters are in the same weight class, if not higher."
I weren't talking about legendary monsters. Normal monster alone is good enough to wipe your silly army.

"No they wouldn't. Yes, Dragonborn got their breath weapons, but once it's used up their mooks are just as tough as any humanoid mooks, and they're far less numerous than humans or dwarves."
They can single handedly wipe your whole army with breath weapon.

"So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat."
Moving the goal post. Previously you insisted that armies would have no magic users at all, therefore ancient formations would be still used. Now you're talking about level 20 wizards being rare. Which was never the case.

"I'm not claiming monsters and magic users are rare. I'm claiming *very powerful* monsters and magic users are rare."
my previous point. So again... Not single army would be based on ancient warfare formations when magic users are not rare. You don't need level 20 wizard to blow up army like that. Less than that is enough.

"As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber."
CR 6 caster is already same as PC level 9. They have fifth level spell slots. That is more than enough to handle your meteor swarm. Especially when you have a lot of these. And again, archmages aren't super rare. Basically every king has one as advisor and every school has one as master.

"Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort."
Fort is not same as army on march to war.

As was mentioned by someone else, it's better that they form a second rank of 16 with spears.

If they committed to engaging with Longbows they could dash to retreat over the featureless plain provided in the example and attack every other round pretty much indefinitely instead of allowing themselves to become engaged in melee.



Switching to the other side of the argument for a minute... the number of individuals that constitutes an "army" is highly dependent on where, when and who you're fighting. Cortes conquered the Aztec Empire with 500 men, for instance.

As a Wizard working on the "Oh S**T an Army!" Scenario currently defined though I think we'd have to define what winning actually means. Do I absolutely have to run out in my bathrobe, boxers and bunny slippers to murder everyone in sight in order to win?

Personally I think not.

5e allows Wizards a lot of spell-casting flexibility, so even if I didn't intend to cast a particular spell I'm a lot more likely to have it prepared then I would have been in 3.5, Pathfinder or other systems.

Going off of my own play-style for Wizards past... and the assumption that the Army is preparing to move in and establish a siege with the goal of either taking over my city and killing me, or convincing the citizens to hand me over peacefully so I can be killed... and finally that they expect me to prepare to withstand a conventional siege...

I'd probably pop off a simulacrum, using Wish if necessary to keep them occupied and organize my defenses to withstand a siege. At that point I'd probably teleport on over to whatever Kingdom is now bereft of it's army and exploit the situation.

Change my appearance with Alter Self, start bemoaning and lamenting the idiotic actions of the local monarch, casting imprecations of divine intervention against their injustice. Use Mass Suggestion to really make it stick, then gather a really big crowd and gate in a pit fiend, just in case anyone was uncertain of the fact that their king is making god cry sad tears.
Teleport back home in time for a quick luncheon of cold meats and the finest cheeses.
True Polymorph my Simulacrum into a celestial or some other divine messenger and then send him out to tell the Army to GTFO. If they resist have him Smite the leader, then use teleport to send a few high ranking remainders back home to see what kind of destruction a Pit Fiend or Balor managed to wreak over the past couple hours.

Once they're convinced their actions have offended their gods... the Celestial Messenger can make it clear that they just need to bow to you, the mighty magical manipulator, who has been given the power of the Gods to undo the Balor... blah, blah, blah.

You've been scrying this of course, while communicating through Rary's Telepathic Bond with your Simulacrum, so the minute they agree you swoop in to save the day. Although the "avatar" of their god makes a big show of summoning you forth.

Then you banish the Balor, of course with the Celestial you making a big show of channeling their power through you.

Not only have you won, you did it in a manner that convinced the Mundalandians or whatever they're called that you're a divine prophet who speaks with the authority of their god, not just some guy with a wand.

As an added bonus your Simulacrum can't cast a whole lot of spells... but they're still a freaking Celestial, and they can go right ahead and affirm your earthly divinity by writing a new gospel or something...

500 men does still not constitute an actual army. In case of aztech they simply got defeated by superior technology and diseases.

[Tespri]

To break it down in simplest terms.

Classes that can win with ease.
Moon Druid
Because at level 20 they are not dieing unless you can cut through their WS HP and their normal class HP, and they will start in a wildshape form. If they are smart it will be an earth elemental.

Classes that can win with a little luck or strategy.
Any Bard, Warlock, Druid, Sorcerer (only if they took Wish as their 9th level spell), or Wizard that lives long enough to get off a spell.
Cleric but only the arcana domain ones.

This is because those classes can pick the best 9th level spells.

Classes that could not win:
All non-full casters and Clerics that are not Arcana Domain.

Why do you keep bringing druid to this? It's no brainer that druids are better than wizards if we take wish away. Also you wouldn't be smart if you wild shape to earth elemental. You will just get feebleminded out of existence. Or disintegrated.
Best form is to be harmless and stealthy animal that people don't pay attention to. Since druids can subtle cast as level 20, even in their forms.

I already mentioned before that druid is the best option. No idea why you brought it up again.

[Unoriginal]

They can single handedly wipe your whole army with breath weapon.

No they can't.

Show the calculations, if you can prove it.

Also, define what you mean by "single handedly", because it'd wager it takes more than one of them.

"So no, it's normal to have armies who can't handle that kind of threat."
Moving the goal post. Previously you insisted that armies would have no magic users at all, therefore ancient formations would be still used.

No, not at all. I've said in several instances that armies will have magic users.

Now you're talking about level 20 wizards being rare. Which was never the case.

Yes it was. It has always been the case. In every single published campaign and in every editions.

"As I've said before, an army will probably have several CR 4-6 casters. It doesn't mean they can handle a Meteor Swarm or other spells of the same caliber."
CR 6 caster is already same as PC level 9. They have fifth level spell slots. That is more than enough to handle your meteor swarm. Especially when you have a lot of these.

Actually, no. Meteor Swarm can't be Counterspelled from so far away, and there is no spell lower than the 8th level that can protect large armies against that kind of thing.

[QUOTE=Tespri;22669224]And again, archmages aren't super rare. Basically every king has one as advisor and every school has one as master.

Aahaha whoa.

No, not at all. Neither in how the default 5e world is presented, nor in Eberron, nor in Grewhawk, nor in Forgotten Realms.

"Those are exemples of typical professional soldiers holding a fort."
Fort is not same as army on march to war.

Maybe try to not accuse people to move the goalposts when you blatantly do it yourself.

You have SEVERAL exemples from a published adventures (that you previously cited as reliable knowledge source) that show that the guard NPC statblock is used to represent the majority of professional soldiers, including ones you can hire as mercenaries.

[Tanarii]

Any cleric has Divine Intervention with 100% success chance. "Remove enemy army" is well within the capabilities of most deities.

But not within the power level the PHB recommends for the DM to use: "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate." (PHB p59)

[JackPhoenix]

But not within the power level the PHB recommends for the DM to use: "the effect of any cleric spell or cleric domain spell would be appropriate." (PHB p59)

That's great... so show me what cleric spell would help the cleric to deal with an army. None? Well, I guess the god will have to find a different way to help his favorite servant.... "would be appropriate" isn't the same as "is the only possibility"

Edit: Actually, you know what? One cleric spell is sufficient to deal with an army. The deity uses Gate to drop a horde of celestial superbeings (invisible or not) to deal with the enemy. Suck it, BMX Bandit!

[Dudewithknives]

Why do you keep bringing druid to this? It's no brainer that druids are better than wizards if we take wish away. Also you wouldn't be smart if you wild shape to earth elemental. You will just get feebleminded out of existence. Or disintegrated.
Best form is to be harmless and stealthy animal that people don't pay attention to. Since druids can subtle cast as level 20, even in their forms.

I already mentioned before that druid is the best option. No idea why you brought it up again.

I brought it up again because I was summarizing, that's why I use the first sentence of Lets break this down in simplest terms. also what does feeble-mind have to do with anything this is a fight against the 500 1/2 challenge rating hobgoblins. Even then I would still have the saves and mental stats of a druid, not that int will be a high one. Also I never said anything about taking away wish either I'm not sure where you're getting some of these ideas

[Renduaz]

Meteor Swarm is the wizard's best bet, but yes, if they're within the range of the army they will lose. Or flee.

They might also escape if they have a setup to prevent dying for good here.


Also, no, a lvl 20 wizard isn't likely to win in a duel. If you're talking about PvP, the winner is almost always the one who wins the initiative. If you're talking about vs 1 monster, well, many monsters can match a lvl 20 caster.

Highly depends on the distance between the contestants. Against any non-spellcasting class, if the Wizard is allowed to have so much as a single turn, he wins. Time Stop if necessary, do whatever he needs to do to get in range, and cast a save-or-suck, or even literally just "suck" with something like Forcecage which maritals will be powerless against and then the Wizard just leisurely prepares his summons and guaranteed victory for an hour.

In a spellcaster duel, that statement is correct. Against martials, it isn't. If they attack the Wizard but didn't kill him on the very first turn, they're gonna lose in the next.

[SociopathFriend]

Over time and by destroying moral- not walking onto a bare field with a couple thousand archers and screaming, "DO IT!" at them.

The Wizard makes a very fearsome illusion, perhaps with some special effects and some summoned beasts (Castlevania anime where Dracula comes back after a year for example) at the camp to deter the army and promise them that they will pay dearly if they want to fight you. As a Wizard you surely will be able to figure it out long before they arrive on your doorstep. Teleport into the King's bedchamber and threaten that his army will never catch you. Worst-case scenario is they mess up your Wizard's tower- then you'll be angry, hiding, and all-too-willing to mess up him and his family line for as long as you live. If you're feeling particularly mean, feel free to place a curse on his precious daughter to show you mean business.

If they keep coming, make with the blasting magic. Soldiers today break ranks sometimes when fighting an enemy that, for our intents and purposes, is entirely his equal; or close to it. Now imagine fighting an enemy that can waste you and 50 other guys with a click of his fingers and some muttered words when you're armed with a stick. Ask yourself- isn't your nice bed looking really good right about now? Ronald was alive 6 seconds ago- now he and everyone within 20 feet of him is ash in the wind (fireball). Illyoa was kinda attractive and you thought about courting her- now her and everyone within 60 feet of her is an ice statue (freezing sphere). Percival swore he'd be safe since he was with the archer contingent and he had his lucky arrow- now his trusty arrow, bow, and remains are in one of four massive craters that came from falling stars (meteor swarm).

You still haven't even seen the guy, you just hear some muttered words in the wind and devastation strikes (Greater Invisibility). Sir Not-Lethal actually tried hitting him in the head with his sword the one time he could be seen- it bounced off of him to barely leave a mark. (Shield or maybe Stoneskin, or just more illusions)

Last night you heard the general was murdered in his sleep- all anyone heard was a scream and they found him dead- not a mark on him (Dream). The sentries didn't see a thing. Big Bill went to take a leak and then ran back into camp with an iron crown and started cutting down everyone in sight. (Crown of Madness)


What sane man would challenge power like that on the words of his commander saying, "We can take him?" Soldiers don't know the Wizard has limited spell slots or the limitations we do.

-

The OP seemed to imply it was 1 vs thousands of men with no magic- totally doable depending on campaign. You don't have to kill thousands of men to defeat thousands of men.

[Unoriginal]

I would argue people would know about the limited number of spells cast per day. It's common knowledge casters can't use all their powers all day.


Now, they have no way of knowing how much *this particular caster* has.

[RickAllison]

I would argue people would know about the limited number of spells cast per day. It's common knowledge casters can't use all their powers all day.


Now, they have no way of knowing how much *this particular caster* has.

Of course, the reality might be even more depressing. "Yeah, he has limited spell slots. Well, no, we can't just take him on when they are gone, he could teleport anywhere in the world when he is running low. Or off the world. Heck, he could teleport into our city, disguise himself with the slots that are too weak to fight us, and have dinner with your wife, then be back here in the morning to harass us, good as new."

[Tanarii]

Of course, the reality might be even more depressing. "Yeah, he has limited spell slots. Well, no, we can't just take him on when they are gone, he could teleport anywhere in the world when he is running low. Or off the world. Heck, he could teleport into our city, disguise himself with the slots that are too weak to fight us, and have dinner with your wife, then be back here in the morning to harass us, good as new."

By which time we've razed his tower.

Remember, the wizard had effectively ran out of his tower in his chonies with whatever spells he had prepared that morning, when he glanced out the window and saw an army approaching, intent on razing it, the nearby town that supported him, salting their fields, etc.

Precise details don't matter, but the OP scenario proposed was "minimal prep time". The wizard doesn't have time to choose a specific load out of spells, it's whatever he has prepared for a "default day". If he runs away, the army achieve their objective. There is no time for a harassment campaign.

Edit: on the other hand, surviving the next few years with a lvl 20 wizard bent on revenge is going to be unlikely. All you can do is hope he'll take it out on whomever gave the orders, not you, a lowly peon.

[Temperjoke]

By which time we've razed his tower.

Remember, the wizard had effectively ran out of his tower in his chonies with whatever spells he had prepared that morning, when he glanced out the window and saw an army approaching, intent on razing it, the nearby town that supported him, salting their fields, etc.

Precise details don't matter, but the OP scenario proposed was "minimal prep time". The wizard doesn't have time to choose a specific load out of spells, it's whatever he has prepared for a "default day". If he runs away, the army achieve their objective. There is no time for a harassment campaign.

Edit: on the other hand, surviving the next few years with a lvl 20 wizard bent on revenge is going to be unlikely. All you can do is hope he'll take it out on whomever gave the orders, not you, a lowly peon.

In fairness, as a level 20 wizard, I would expect that my tower/castle/lair would be able to defend itself while I was away. That doesn't mean I necessarily want an army hammering my defenses, I'd rather not have to repeat my investment, but I should be able to spend a day on petty revenge against the kingdom supporting the army and expect it'd be there still.

[Tanarii]

In fairness, as a level 20 wizard, I would expect that my tower/castle/lair would be able to defend itself while I was away. That doesn't mean I necessarily want an army hammering my defenses, I'd rather not have to repeat my investment, but I should be able to spend a day on petty revenge against the kingdom supporting the army and expect it'd be there still.

In even more fairness, expecting a level 20 Wizard to be blindsided to an approaching army to the point they're running out the tower in their chonies isn't very reasonable.

"Minimal prep time" for a level 20 wizard might quite possibly be before the army starts being mustered.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In even more fairness, expecting a level 20 Wizard to be blindsided to an approaching army to the point they're running out the tower in their chonies isn't very reasonable.

"Minimal prep time" for a level 20 wizard might quite possibly be before the army starts being mustered.

Why is high INT equated with paranoia and thus with omniscience? Especially in this edition, wizards don't get access to the best unfocused divination spells. They basically have to know about the existence of a problem before they can discover more information. The only "general info" spell they really get is contact other planes, which has serious side effects and is unreliable at best.

5th-level divination (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: 1 minute

You mentally contact a demigod, the spirit of a long-dead sage, or some other mysterious entity from another plane. Contacting this extraplanar intelligence can strain or even break your mind. When you cast this spell, make a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw. On a failure, you take 6d6 psychic damage and are insane until you finish a long rest. While insane, you can’t take actions, can’t understand what other creatures say, can’t read, and speak only in gibberish. A greater restoration spell cast on you ends this effect.

On a successful save, you can ask the entity up to five questions. You must ask your questions before the spell ends. The GM answers each question with one word, such as “yes,” “no,” “maybe,” “never,” “irrelevant,” or “unclear” (if the entity doesn’t know the answer to the question). If a one-word answer would be misleading, the GM might instead offer a short phrase as an answer.

with a +11 to INT saves, you're looking at only a 15% chance of going insane for a day so there's that. You still only get 5 questions, answered with one-word answers (where "dunno" is a valid answer) over the course of one minute. You're not going to be able to get all that much information out of that, unless you cast it multiple times in sequence. You're playing 20 questions where the answerer may not even know the answer. Remember that gods (and this goes double for demigods, dead sages, or other mysterious entities) are not omniscient. Most have very narrow areas of focus. If you ask "are there any threats to me," the answer might be "yes" (there are always threats to everyone), "maybe", or "unclear."

All the other long-range divinations you get are things like scrying (which requires a specific, named place or creature) which aren't so good for open-ended threat detection. Clerics are much better at the generalized divination in this edition; wizards are better at focused divination.

[Tanarii]

Why is high INT equated with paranoia and thus with omniscience?

Who,said anything about high Int?

High, God-like even, levels is why I equate any Tier 4 adventurer with paranoia. And access to effective divinations is why a Wizard in particular be particularly well informed.

Especially in this edition, wizards don't get access to the best unfocused divination spells. They basically have to know about the existence of a problem before they can discover more information. The only "general info" spell they really get is contact other planes, which has serious side effects and is unreliable at best.

Also Scrying.

And yes, I'm assuming they know about the existence of the problem. That was my point. If you're a level 20 adventurer and you don't know about these kinds of problems, how did you get to that level? Some omniscient over-deity carefully holding your hands and making sure you only ever faced possible-to-beat opponents in a carefully scripted, even plot-like, series of adventuring arcs? Talk about paranoid fantasies.

[smcmike]

And yes, I'm assuming they know about the existence of the problem. That was my point. If you're a level 20 adventurer and you don't know about these kinds of problems, how did you get to that level? Some omniscient over-deity carefully holding your hands and making sure you only ever faced possible-to-beat opponents in a carefully scripted, even plot-like, series of adventuring arcs? Talk about paranoid fantasies.

In this case, the wizard popped into existence suddenly, with an army advancing, almost as if he were some sort of hypothetical case in an argument between bored fantasists. After defeating the army, perhaps he will look into it.

[Tanarii]

In this case, the wizard popped into existence suddenly, with an army advancing, almost as if he were some sort of hypothetical case in an argument between bored fantasists. After defeating the army, perhaps he will look into it.

Indeed. But part of exploring a hypothetical is exploring the likelihood of it every occurring.

[smcmike]

Indeed. But part of exploring a hypothetical is exploring the likelihood of it every occurring.

In that case, let’s shut this board down. Wizards aren’t real.

[Tanarii]

In that case, let’s shut this board down. Wizards aren’t real.

/roll-eyes

[PhoenixPhyre]

Who,said anything about high Int?

High, God-like even, levels is why I equate any Tier 4 adventurer with paranoia. And access to effective divinations is why a Wizard in particular be particularly well informed.

Also Scrying.

And yes, I'm assuming they know about the existence of the problem. That was my point. If you're a level 20 adventurer and you don't know about these kinds of problems, how did you get to that level?

High INT is implied by being a level 20 wizard.

But my point was that they don't have access to effective divinations that can let them know about arbitrary threats. Scrying requires a particular creature as a target per casting. It's not something where you can simply run it across the country-side, watching for hitherto-unknown armies gathering. Even if you target the kings of all the local countries (that could gather armies), they get a save (at -2 if you can draw a picture of them). That doesn't protect against advisors that can cast see invisibility (and thus see the sensor). Or against lower-ranking threats (a duke can raise an army, and you don't have enough 5th level slots to scry every local noble even every few days). You can target a location instead, but then it doesn't move and you have to have seen the target location before.

It also only lasts 10 minutes per casting, and is a 5th level spell. This is great for spying on a known threat, but crap for discovering threats.

How did they survive until now? By being proactive and being the ones on the offensive (and on the move). Adventurers are seeking out nascent threats, not reacting to newly-brewing threats. And by pitting the big threats against each other. And by not letting enemies live to rebuild. Scorched earth tactics against enemies, munificence toward allies. Not by being paranoid and divining threats everywhere. That's highly prone to failure even if you're a cleric (who are much better at that sort of thing).

Coming from zero and growing fast (a typical D&D campaign) also makes a big difference in survival--the risky part is before you're a mover-and-shaker, before you've established a place in the local social structure. But there you're not a threat to the big guys, so even divinations wouldn't show you effectively. You're insignificant when you're easily crushable (and so crushed only by accident); by the time the sclerotic power structures can respond in overwhelming force once you're a visible threat, you're already quite powerful.

[RickAllison]

That whole idea of having to defend a tower, and a town? None of that is in the OP. None of those conditions exist for the hypothetical scenario, and honestly don't make sense. A high-level wizard doesn't need a town supporting him because he can teleport to any city to do so when needed. His tower can be on different Demiplanes only he knows the glyphs to. The OP scenario is that the wizard is marched upon by an army, cut off from any preparations. He literally CAN'T be in his tower, because that is reasonably heavily warded. And a town around it? He would have a lot more than a minute to prep.

Insisting arbitrary conditions that make no sense is just shifting the goalposts. The thread is to establish whether a wizard can defeat an army, not whether he can defend a town from invasion singlehandedly and without prep time.

[smcmike]

That whole idea of having to defend a tower, and a town? None of that is in the OP. None of those conditions exist for the hypothetical scenario, and honestly don't make sense. A high-level wizard doesn't need a town supporting him because he can teleport to any city to do so when needed. His tower can be on different Demiplanes only he knows the glyphs to. The OP scenario is that the wizard is marched upon by an army, cut off from any preparations. He literally CAN'T be in his tower, because that is reasonably heavily warded. And a town around it? He would have a lot more than a minute to prep.

Insisting arbitrary conditions that make no sense is just shifting the goalposts. The thread is to establish whether a wizard can defeat an army, not whether he can defend a town from invasion singlehandedly and without prep time.

The town was added in to give the Wizard some reason to fight, instead of just ignoring the army. It doesn’t have to be a town, but the point is that the army needs to be defeated, not evaded, and that the defeat must be done quickly - it doesn’t count if you teleport to the other side of the word, raise your own army, and teleport back.

[Sigreid]

I think what's missing from most of this thread is that to defeat an army you don't have to kill it. You have to make it too costly or impossible to continue. Just a few options are:

• Slaughtering small groups one at a time my hititng their scouts and skirmishers.
• Raiding their camps to destroy their supplies.
• Poisoning their supplies.
• Luring them into an area where they can't bring their full force to bare and murdering them that way.
• Murdering their leadership.
• Using the weather against them (control weather)
• Booby traps
• etc.

Any 20th level character that doesn't think they have to do it in one go, and isn't an idiot can do it with the tools they have. Admittedly, some have an easier time than others such as a wizard who from a safe distance summons fire elementals to go around the main body of the army and destroy their wagons, tents, food supplies, etc. Or a super stealth rogue who sneaks in and destroys/poisons the same things. Get rid of their supplies and support and any army is done.

[SociopathFriend]

But my point was that they don't have access to effective divinations that can let them know about arbitrary threats. Scrying requires a particular creature as a target per casting. It's not something where you can simply run it across the country-side, watching for hitherto-unknown armies gathering. Even if you target the kings of all the local countries (that could gather armies), they get a save (at -2 if you can draw a picture of them). That doesn't protect against advisors that can cast see invisibility (and thus see the sensor). Or against lower-ranking threats (a duke can raise an army, and you don't have enough 5th level slots to scry every local noble even every few days). You can target a location instead, but then it doesn't move and you have to have seen the target location before.

Telescope. Pretty useful device when you have a tall place to watch from- or just the naked eye. I forget the exact formula but you only need to be a few stories up to increase the distance you can see by miles. Even standing 30 feet from the ground allows you to see almost 7 miles- and an army is hard to miss. Irrelevant for the scenario apparently but you don't need magic to know something bad is coming. Dunno how this army was raised and marched some distance on this Wizard without said mage having no clue he'd angered someone to such a state but moving past that-

RAW there is no such thing as morale rules AFAIK- so the army is hardened numbers marching forwards to kill said Wizard no matter what the cost. Sounds a wee bit unrealistic but rolling with it. The Wizard is also severely limited in options and isn't allowed to reposition, rethink, or basically do anything other than respond with raw aggression? Sounds a wee bit more unrealistic but, again, rolling with it. RAW every soldier has a longbow and a bunch of other weapons (instead of the normal contingent of archers, some cavalry, some spearmen, etc.) with an effective range of 600 feet. Most of the Wizard's spells do not have this range. Mechanically the Wizard is boned.

If you severely limit one side and throw extreme odds at them, yes, you'll defeat them. Wizards aren't feared because they can smash armies to the ground. Wizards are feared because they have eldritch powers the normal man, or a hundred normal men, cannot do anything about; not because they're a Dragonball character that can blast armies off the face of the Earth.

[SharkForce]

High INT is implied by being a level 20 wizard.

But my point was that they don't have access to effective divinations that can let them know about arbitrary threats. Scrying requires a particular creature as a target per casting. It's not something where you can simply run it across the country-side, watching for hitherto-unknown armies gathering. Even if you target the kings of all the local countries (that could gather armies), they get a save (at -2 if you can draw a picture of them). That doesn't protect against advisors that can cast see invisibility (and thus see the sensor). Or against lower-ranking threats (a duke can raise an army, and you don't have enough 5th level slots to scry every local noble even every few days). You can target a location instead, but then it doesn't move and you have to have seen the target location before.

It also only lasts 10 minutes per casting, and is a 5th level spell. This is great for spying on a known threat, but crap for discovering threats.

How did they survive until now? By being proactive and being the ones on the offensive (and on the move). Adventurers are seeking out nascent threats, not reacting to newly-brewing threats. And by pitting the big threats against each other. And by not letting enemies live to rebuild. Scorched earth tactics against enemies, munificence toward allies. Not by being paranoid and divining threats everywhere. That's highly prone to failure even if you're a cleric (who are much better at that sort of thing).

Coming from zero and growing fast (a typical D&D campaign) also makes a big difference in survival--the risky part is before you're a mover-and-shaker, before you've established a place in the local social structure. But there you're not a threat to the big guys, so even divinations wouldn't show you effectively. You're insignificant when you're easily crushable (and so crushed only by accident); by the time the sclerotic power structures can respond in overwhelming force once you're a visible threat, you're already quite powerful.

the wizard has wish, which means access to any divination spell from any spell list of level 8 or lower if they really want. though a fun one can be using legend lore on yourself; as a level 20 wizard, you are very likely a legendary individual, and the more you know about the subject, the more precise and detailed the information can be, and it can include current information. like "there is currently an army on its way from <place> to attack <wizard's name>, and just passed <location>", for example.

the wizard also has access to the ability to summon extraplanar beings and bind them to long-term service.

and the ability to hire scouts and spies, just like anyone else could (and better than normal ability to stay in touch with them). while that may not reveal every single threat (for example, a lone assassin hired secretly might be hard to spot), an army is going to be quite obvious, both when it is forming and when it is marching.

and the ability to create living servants of fairly high power, which can continue to voluntarily serve indefinitely if treated well.

and the ability to create strongholds of various varieties protected by powerful defensive magic like the guards and wards spell.

and can have geased minions.

and can have up to 12 creatures serving for up to a year courtesy of mass suggestion, per casting of mass suggestion.

and can have glyphs of warding, and/or symbol spells in place in their home for general-purpose defense.


but seriously, guards and wards alone could do a lot of work... create 5 choke points, protect them with 5 guards and wards spells suggesting that the subject get as far away as possible, and at a probable DC of 19+ only one in ten soldiers will pass... which means only 1/10 of 1/10 of 1/10 of 1/10 of 1/10 will get through... for every 10,000 soldiers the enemy brings, you'll have to face approximately one. note that this does not expend your level 9 slot, leaving you free to use it as you please to prepare for when the army tries again (though you'll also have your spell slots back, it having taken 8 hours for the soldiers to leave thanks to the suggestion spell, and then 8 hours more to return thanks to the suggestion spell, at which point they'll need to rest and you can refresh your wards. you might even have longer; the suggestion to get as far away as possible may cause the soldiers to force march away, leading to levels of exhaustion and other problems).

you could also give up one of the guards and wards spells to create a maze from hell thanks to mirage arcane. which, of course, you will then supplement with guards and wards spells (include as many intersections as possible to maximize the confusion). maybe a few other "fun" tricks, like transmute rock in a portion of the maze that has mordenkainen's hound in it (or do the same with stairs), or a similar section with transmute rock or plant growth to slow movement to a crawl combined with some sort of trap (mirage arcane allows structures and natural phenomena, there's no particular reason to presume that simple pit traps or quicksand are not options) or ambush (because there's no particularly compelling reason a wizard couldn't have half a dozen invisible stalkers bound at all times at zero cost thanks to wish).