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2017-12-31, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Is that what I said, though? And once you assertain that, yes, it is - are you really sure? Do you get the impression, at this time, that I'm implying it is? Or could there conceivably be a chance of misunderstanding or miscommunication? Again, even in advance I'm willing to accept blame for any such things.
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2017-12-31, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
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2017-12-31, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-12-31 at 04:22 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
There are still many things that would not be a story. Here's a short list:
Flora
Fauna
Political systems
Colors
Science
Articles of clothing
Philosophies
Human bodies
Anything made of matter or energy.
Compared to EVERYTHING, Stories account for a teeny tiny fraction of what Everything encompasses.
Story is broad, yes. I'm sorry you dislike that the definition for Story is broad. But you'll need to deal with it. That's what it is. If you want to differentiate between sequences of events and other elements of Fiction, that's cool. We can do that. But we can't pretend that only the subdivided bits you like don't count as story if they still do.
I'm sorry Ron Edwards assertes dumb things a decade ago that nobody really uses anymore, but at some point you need tp let that old corpse stay in its grave for longer than 6 minutes before being dragged out as a boogeyman again.
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2017-12-31, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
@Max_Killjoy, since you've studiously not provided a definition, can I try to extrapolate one from what you've said? Correct me where I've gone wrong, please.
Define: Story, noun. A work containing the following elements:
- retelling a sequence of connected events,
- intentionally shaped into a coherent whole,
- and containing one or more of plot, character development, setting, narrative, dialogue, or pacing.
Is this a fair (working) definition for your purposes? Please correct any mis-statements.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2017-12-31, 04:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
If a series of events occurs and nobody records or recounts it... is it a story?
If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
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2017-12-31, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Ha! I thought this exact thing.
A sequence of events is not in and of itself a story. It only becomes a story when there is a thinking entity there organizing it into a narrative.
A tree falls in the woods: Not a story.
I see a tree fall and say to myself "That tree is falling": Story.
I see a fallen tree and say to my friend "That tree fell": Story.
I see a tree and say "That tree is going to fall": Story.Last edited by Blackjackg; 2017-12-31 at 05:34 PM.
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2017-12-31, 06:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
The issue isn't that I'm saying stories CANNOT be told during the events.
The issue is that others are saying ALL sequences of events MUST BE stories while / as soon as they occur, and I'm saying "No, they don't have to be, they only are if you're actively engaged in storytelling... and just playing your character in a game is not storytelling".
The reason I keep coming back to "there's a difference between events that stories can be told about, and actually telling a story" is because some are trying to use the (uselessly broad) definition of story, "any sequence of events", to then assert that anything with a sequence of events is active storytelling, by conflating "story" and "storytelling".
It's getting there, and has the key elements of being more usefully constrained such that it doesn't just mean "everything that ever happened everywhere to anyone or anything" and including the intent to tell a story.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 06:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I really am becoming curious, Max_Killjoy: Do you play tabletop RPGs? And if so, why?
You don't have to answer, of course. It's a personal question. But I'm curious.Awesome avatar courtesy of Dorian Soth.
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2017-12-31, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
But you still haven't defined the key parts to your personal definition (which is very different than what everyone else seems to be using). You have a bad habit of doing this--you assert things without actually discussing them, while claiming that others are wrong by Max_Killjoy fiat. I'm trying to get you to actually commit to a definition that can be discussed.
"Getting there" isn't good enough. Can we agree to analyze this definition, or should it change? And if it should, how, specifically. Without agreed on definitions, this is just a "I shot you!" "No you didn't!" back-and-forth.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2017-12-31, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
It's not though. And it's like, no matter how many times I tell you so, you're so locked down on feeling insulted, there's not convincing you otherwise. I just dunno what to tell you.
Seriously. You should try. Go back, and actually try to read what I'm saying in terms of what I'm saying, not what you're hearing. It's a basic trait of communication - sender/receiver. I promise you: I'm not trying to insult you. I swear.
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2017-12-31, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
This drives me crazy. I don't need to design a bridge to tell someone that an obviously flawed bridge is going to fail. I don't need to provide a definition to point out that a definition of "story" that includes the entire universe and everything that ever happened is a flawed definition that's not going to provide any utility and lead to nothing but miscommunication, etc.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
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2017-12-31, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
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2017-12-31, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I will contribute my (working) definition of "story":
Story (n): any set of one or more scenes that are causally or otherwise directly related to one another.
Scene (n): a set of one or more events with continuity of one or more of the following elements:
- location
- characters
- narration
- dialogue
Often contains a distinct beginning and end or a distinct transition between scenes.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2017-12-31, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
But that's a huge strawman. No one's claiming that, for instance, a still-frame photograph is a story. It may be an element in a story, but it's not a stand-alone story. So you're being strongly hyperbolic. Which is another bad habit I've seen with you--it's all or nothing. Either people accept your (highly unclear and certainly unstated) definition or their being completely irrational and refusing to accept the "obviously flawed" (in ways you won't explain) nature of their definition.
This is exactly what happens when you discuss railroading with Darth Ultron. Just in more pleasant guise. But the same level of utility.
HIDDEN DEFINITIONS ARE USELESS FOR DISCUSSION.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2017-12-31, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I used to play in multiple campaigns, two or three days a week depending on what was going on. Then everyone I gamed with moved away, got married and had kids, just flaked completely out, or whatever.
Other than one session of Planet Mercenary at GenCon last year, I haven't played in almost a decade now.
Reasons for playing... exploring a character and their life, getting into their head and their motivations and reactions, seeing them do things I can't do and go places I can't go, immersion in other worlds... I love worldbuilding.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I just posted a bunch of quotes from this thread with people saying exactly what you're accusing me of making up.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=117
How are they not saying that everything that ever happened (which is the entire universe, since it's not a steady state) is "a story"?
Oh bullcrap. I'm not the one insisting that every person ever is always engaged in "telling stories", I'm not the one insisting that "story" means "universe", and I'm not the one calling people delusional for not thinking that everything is stories.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-12-31 at 07:50 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Nope. They're saying that sequences of events can be a story (important distinguishing words in bold). That's not the entire universe and anything that has happened in it (which is your claim). That's not even close. None of those claim that facts are stories, only that stories can be created from facts (a very different claim).
I'm really really annoyed by attempts to make me shadow-box--to take the responsibility to analyze vague statements that change every time and are often naught but hyperbole and exaggeration.
There's a phrase that describes those who claim that a bridge is "obviously flawed" without actually showing their work (especially when other people with similar expertise claim it's just fine): ipse dixit. You have to show your work. Don't just say "no it's not" and dodge attempts to get you to clarify or even stake an actual firm position. That's bad discussion practice.
I can see that it is this discussion that is meaningless. Without a clear definition that both sides are willing to stipulate to, it's just a shouting match. Which is no way to enter a new year (if you haven't already).
Have a good evening and a happy New Year.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2017-12-31, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Everything that exists (at least as we understand it), even abstract ideas, have a cause for coming into existence. This cause and effect can always be related through story.
So everything is a story because everything has a story. This isn't meaningless at all, because it just says that everything has some minimal level of meaning, even if only that it exists (or else it wouldn't).
You can also say that everything that has physical form also has some finite amount of kinetic energy. That doesn't make kinetic energy useless or meaningless, but it doesn't also make it relevant or important to every application.
It's not that everything having story makes the idea of story meaningless. It makes the ubiquity of story elements trivial.
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2017-12-31, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
If they'd said "can" from the start, we wouldn't be here.
But they didn't. They've insisted that it does and must -- that if you're roleplaying, you're storytelling. And some went so far as to say if you're alive and breathing, you're telling a story.
I've never said that no one is ever telling a story, or that an RPG session can't be a form of storytelling. I've said that I'm not telling a story... and the response has repeatedly been one form or another of "yes you are, even if you don't think you are." If it could have been accepted from the start that whether playing an RPG is also storytelling is a personal preference instead of some people trying to play amateur psychologist hour and assert that they know better than others what's going on in other's heads, we wouldn't be in this place.
I'll go back and actually quote the posts again if necessary, it's right here.
And oh hey, someone literally posted what you're telling me I'm making up right after you posted.
Emphasis added:
Spoiler
Don't tell me that it's not there when it's right where I can quote it back as thoroughly and as often as necessary.
I don't need to tell you what something is to tell you what it isn't. I don't need to provide an exacting and bullproof definition of "dog" to point to a tree and say "that is not a dog".
If the bridge is missing half its cables or is sagging in the middle, I don't need to "show my work" to point out that something is very wrong.
I've already explained why I think the "anything that every happens anywhere to anything or anyone" definition is bad -- because as one of its advocates just pointed it, includes everything and everyone ever -- I don't need to give you a definition to nitpick and attack in order to point out that other definition is useless.
~~~~
If certain people had just said "hey I view what I'm doing when I play my character as telling a story" or "the approach to gaming that makes it the most enjoyable for me is as if I'm collaborating on a story", we all could have agreed to approach gaming our own way. But nope, when some of us said "we aren't storytelling when we game, we're just doing these other things"... the response from those certain people just had to be "Yes you are even if you don't think you are".Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-12-31 at 08:57 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
You are misquoting.
If you are alive and breathing you are creating a story. You aren’t telling a story. Storytelling requires the telling part. A story can exist without the telling. And you can tell something that isn’t a story. “Storytelling” requires both parts.
With an rpg you are “telling” by communicating with your fellow players. And the thing you are “telling” is what characters are doing in a series of events. i.e. a story.
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2017-12-31, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Yea, I'm saying this too: you can't tell a story during the events. And this is even more so when your part of the events. And your part is small. And you have very limited control.
Everyone seems to be saying that if they have a single character in a game take a bite of an apple it is somehow some type of amazing story...when it's just an action.
It does come back to the same problem: Everyone keeps saying Everything is Everything. Everything is Railroading. Everything is Optimzation. Everything is a Story.
A story has a start, middle and end....and a path that must be followed along from start to middle to end.
So in a classic RPG, like D&D, the DM is the one that makes the Story. This is a big part of the DM's job. The players, when they sit down to play the game, are playing though the story the DM made and the players have to stay on the story path to tell the story. The players can add details and spice to the story, but they are not creating anything, they are just adding to the story.
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2017-12-31, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I'm not sure if I agree with that. Is a story a story before it has been "told"? And by told I don't means told to someone else, but sort of formed into a chain by a mind who views them as a sequence. There are little stories I form in my head, and many of them never travel beyond there. And I am pretty sure those count as a story. But just things happening by themselves don't seem like enough.
I realized this basically comes down to "If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" One of the answers I have heard is no, because sound is not the vibration in the air, but your perception of it.
The more correct answer is of course: does it matter?
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2017-12-31, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Creating, telling, whatever, it still rests on the notion that any sequence of events is a "story"... or worse, the notion that our lives are somehow narrative in nature.
And there's the core problem.
Sure, it's what you're doing... it is not however what some others are doing.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2017-12-31 at 09:44 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2017-12-31, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
That's the problem associated with inherent existence of intangibles. Like the number 4. Does it exist? In reality?
Stories exist. Of that I'm sure. When do they start counting as such? No clue.
Moving away from the more general topic, on the topic of stories and story-telling in fiction (specifically RPGs here), if I use my definition above of story, then story-telling must be something like
Story-telling--the act of forming stories by connecting events to form scenes.
If you talk to little kids, they're constantly making up stories, even about jejune events. "I went to the store today! There were cars! The car went VROOOM!" is a grand story for a three-year-old. "I'm a dinosaur and I'm going to eat you!" is a common story told. As is "The floor is lava! We have to jump from chair to chair not to burn up!" In fact, often they can't not tell stories. They're hungrily connecting event to event, looking for patterns. Sometimes, I think we do ourselves a disservice as adults by crushing that sense of continual story-telling and making it much more formal and strait-jacketed than it needs to be.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2018-01-01, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
So, one thing people should be aware of is the fact that there's a subset of people (not saying anyone in this thread) that have decided that RPGs are "about" story and that all good RPGs should be "about" story in some way, whether that's the railroad-y type of predetermined GM path, or whether that's Forge-y storygamey kind of stuff.
And some people want nothing to do with either of those (or, in my case, recognize that they're valuable things that aren't all-encompassing, and games that *aren't* those things are still super awesome).
THe problem then is that a number of people use expansive definitions of "story" to "prove" that all games are "about story" and thus their style of gaming is superior, without making any attempt to understand what they're denigrating, or even accepting that enjoying other styles of elfgames is totally valid and cool.
So when you start talking about "everything being story", you run into that pushback from people that have dealt with that.
(Plus the fact that as soon as you say "everything is story" then saying that something "is story" becomes a meaningless statement.)"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2018-01-01, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Collaborative Storytelling as a term exists to differentiate games where everyone gets to contribute meaningfully to what happens from games where the DM aggressively dictates a story to the players who are supposed to follow it.
That's it, really.Last edited by Koo Rehtorb; 2018-01-01 at 03:22 AM.
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2018-01-01, 05:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Mathematics is a good parallel.
Everything is math, too, in exactly the same way. This is because math is just a way humans look at the universe to understand it and communicate what they see. It has little, if any, meaning independent from the things it is used to describe. That's all story is as well.
Everything has narrative because it exists and therefore has properties that can be described. At that point, it has the elements of a story or mathematical formula, regardless if anyone ever formalizes those elements or finds the communicable information useful or coherent.
Coming back to RPGs, what I've heard from the old guard sounds like original D&D focused much more on the dungeon grinding, where you didn't get too attached to characters because you expected most of them to never make it through from start to finish (I know plenty of people had different experience with the old ways, it just seems more common to be this way).
Inevitably, some players became inspired by an idea for a character that did have meaning. Like a pet, they named it and became emotionally invested in the story. Suddenly it wasn't okay for this character to be so expendable.
To me, the shift from crunchy rpG towards narrative CS is a natural evolution of the hobby. Blowing up adventurers is fun for a while, but eventually people tend to want to settle down and find a character who means more to them than that.
And again, these are indeed sweeping generalizations. They're directed at the apparent "average" scenario, if not any particular player. Much like the Far Side comic about the average family with literally 1.5 children.
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2018-01-01, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Thank you.
On both points.
Making RPGs "about story" is contrary to my enjoyment of gaming, and I've seen that argument-by-definition play out so many times over the years. I don't mind one bit if other players think of their gaming in terms of story, but I flat refuse to -- why should I if it makes the games less enjoyable for me?
It doesn't help that I've just realized this weekend that an RPG I so much wanted to love... was intentionally designed with a mechanic to incorporate "story structure" such as "try-fail cycles" (aka, "Yes, but...") directly into the core of the system, so that successful rolls sometimes pick up complications... so that if I really want to enjoy it, I'd have to game the system to get around that aspect, or just gut it out and not play the game as the designers intended.
Why the "it's story, you're doing story, you can't avoid doing story" thing, whether it's from the "Forge-y storygamers" you're talking about... or some of the participants in this thread?
OK, I kinda understand the older Edwardian push on that front, since "you promised me story" and "story is about exploring theme" were his bugbears... and they were largely a bunch of postmodernists who could only resort to quibbling over a bottomless spiral of obscurantist terminology. It was so important to them to make gaming "about story" that -- coincidentally or not -- they did exactly what some have been doing here, which is try to impose the broadest definition of "story" possible, and claim elements that aren't exclusive to "story" as inherently and unavoidably part of it (character, setting, etc). It went so far that Edwards at one point said that he wasn't sure simulationism even existed, and that it was probably just Game and Narrative.
What I don't get is why it's so important to some people here.
(And yes, once you say "everything is story", then it's meaningless to say that any one thing "is story"... because everything else is too.)It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.