Player doesn't want to take ANY metamagics. Halp!

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: Please keep it civil in here, folks. And remember that insulting others based on playstyle or game preferences is explicitly prohibited.

[Arkhios]

Sheriff: Please keep it civil in here, folks. And remember that insulting others based on playstyle or game preferences is explicitly prohibited.

Thank you for stepping in.

[Mikal]

The player doesnt have to use the metamagics, even if she chose them. If she's completely expending her Sorcery Points for more magic missiles, that's still the class working as designed. No need to change anything here.

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

If she doesn't want to use it, fine, no problem. But she still needs to actually choose one.

If you're playing a game, then you choose to abide by the rules of the game. Even if you choose not to actually use the option, the rules state you choose metamagic. She needs to just take 5 minutes and write it down. She doesn't need to memorize it. That's why we have these things called character sheets.

[LeonBH]

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

Double surprise, she's actually a power gamer who casts only Magic Missile. Yeah, I don't think so.

[Mikal]

Double surprise, she's actually a power gamer who casts only Magic Missile. Yeah, I don't think so.

Of course, because her current actions mean she will never make any other changes ever, or that other players may take advantage of the situation.
If she truly cares only about spamming Magic Missile, then she should take Quicken as one of her choices. Boom. Double Magic Missiles!

[Specter]

For the upteenth time, you can't cast Magic Missile twice using Quickened.

[Naanomi]

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

I realize it probably doesn’t matter in this situation at all; but if a player wanted to delay picking a spell/ability/asi I would agree, but they’d have to choose after a long rest not ‘mid action’

[Mikal]

For the upteenth time, you can't cast Magic Missile twice using Quickened.

Sorry, caffeine hadn't kicked in yet.
Magic Missile plus firebolt then. whichever.
Regardless, it's a basic mechanic of the class. It's like saying "we only play monopoly once in awhile, how do you expect me to remember that I have to pay or roll doubles to get out of jail? Oh, and I refuse to actually do that."

Or

"We only play poker once every two months, so I don't remember that the big blind pays the ante. Also, I refuse to do so."

[the secret fire]

I think the suggestion to just re-skin the character as a warlock and re-skin the magic missiles as eldritch blasts is by far the most sensible thing to come out of this thread. Now she never runs out of magic missiles, and her other abilities don't potentially take away from the use of her schtick, so she might actually use them. This player wants simplicity, so give her the simpler class.

[Doug Lampert]

Until the time metamagic is needed and the player miraculously decides then to pick it, and what a surprise, it's exactly the type of metamagic most useful in that situation!

Yep, and I allow delayed choices in all my games. You can choose when I next award XP and allow advancement. No other time.

Strangely, your strawman of how delayed choices works never happens.

I realize it probably doesn’t matter in this situation at all; but if a player wanted to delay picking a spell/ability/asi I would agree, but they’d have to choose after a long rest not ‘mid action’

Long rest still means you can choose to fit the current situation rather than the build or the long term usefulness. You can do that, but IMAO when you give XP is the correct time for a delayed choice, retrain, or rebuild if any of these are allowed.

[Satsujinki]

I wouldn't want to be her when the dm uses shield or a monster that has features like shield spell.

[Mikal]

Yep, and I allow delayed choices in all my games. You can choose when I next award XP and allow advancement. No other time.

Strangely, your strawman of how delayed choices works never happens.

How is it a strawman?

I pointed out a potential exploit of delaying that choice, one where a player goes "well I guess I'll make the choice now when it best benefits me!", either because they thought of it themselves or another player thought of it.

Your game, and whether or not you allowed delayed choices, has no bearing on how other games run and whether or not this is a scenario which could be attempted.

[Pex]

I think the suggestion to just re-skin the character as a warlock and re-skin the magic missiles as eldritch blasts is by far the most sensible thing to come out of this thread. Now she never runs out of magic missiles, and her other abilities don't potentially take away from the use of her schtick, so she might actually use them. This player wants simplicity, so give her the simpler class.

Magic Missile hits automatically. Eldritch Blast requires a roll to hit. In addition, you get more Magic Missiles using higher spell slots. The mechanical differences are significant enough they'll likely bother the player into not wanting to do this.

The player might be convinced to take Empower Spell. She gets to reroll 1s. The choice to use it is done after her roll. If she doesn't mind a die or two being a 1 at a particular time she doesn't have to use it, but the option is there if she's in the mood.

Distant Spell can be sold to her to allow her to cast Magic Missile against a bad guy farther away than normal. She doesn't need to use it often, but for those once in a while situations the option is there.

[Mikal]

Magic Missile hits automatically. Eldritch Blast requires a roll to hit. In addition, you get more Magic Missiles using higher spell slots. The mechanical differences are significant enough they'll likely bother the player into not wanting to do this.

The player might be convinced to take Empower Spell. She gets to reroll 1s. The choice to use it is done after her roll. If she doesn't mind a die or two being a 1 at a particular time she doesn't have to use it, but the option is there if she's in the mood.

Distant Spell can be sold to her to allow her to cast Magic Missile against a bad guy farther away than normal. She doesn't need to use it often, but for those once in a while situations the option is there.

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

[the secret fire]

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

Yeah...I mean, I don't know these people, but from what's described in this thread, this player sounds pretty borderline. I dunno...is she contributing at the table in other ways? Is her character involved in social situations? If she's really just sitting around waiting for the next opportunity to cast magic missile then there is probably nothing that can be done as she simply lacks interest in the game. But that's not necessarily the case.

[Vaz]

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

Considering that I got an infraction for criticising peoples play styles, can I get a mod to run over this thread with the hypocrisy hammer as they seem to have missed people doing the same.

Thanks.

[Dudewithknives]

Considering that I got an infraction for criticising peoples play styles, can I get a mod to run over this thread with the hypocrisy hammer as they seem to have missed people doing the same.

Thanks.

I got one too, I am sure many people did.

[Vaz]

I got one too, I am sure many people did.

Clearly not done the job then has it given that we're still experiencing it. It's almost as if this thread is missing something obvious, like a big red text where a moderator tells people to be civil. (Not aimed at you, being clear)

[ErHo]

Why play at all if youre just going to spam MM?

Advancing a character is more than half the game!

Well if she quits you can just replace her with a gnome in a loin cloth and a wand of magic missiles and never miss a beat

[Mikal]

Clearly not done the job then has it given that we're still experiencing it. It's almost as if this thread is missing something obvious, like a big red text where a moderator tells people to be civil. (Not aimed at you, being clear)

You mean the thing where it says not to insult people for playing a certain way?
Asking a question isn't insulting.

[Arkhios]

Alright, guys, if you have nothing else to say on this topic than to quibble at each other, do it somewhere else.

[Mikal]

Alright, guys, if you have nothing else to say on this topic than to quibble at each other, do it somewhere else.

Per my last post before it got derailed, I have to wonder about the level of buy in by this player, and whether or not the investment is worth it for either them, the DM, or other players.

If one player is being that disruptive and dismissive of the most basic rules, then what's the point?

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't respect people who refuse to think or do the minimal learning required for the game. Being a casual is fine, but straight up refusing to do anything else other than one spell is just down right stupid. You really can't help people who don't want to help themselves. And yes, I'd be quite annoyed if she was my party member.

Have you ever DM'd for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14) before? I have. Your attitude won't work with that group in my experience. The climate at the table that our OP described would probably work, since the sorcie as described seems to be having fun. She's got something right about this game.

... but instead of attacking with a rival sorcerer to "teach her a lesson", what about introducing an ally NPC sorcerer to demonstrate the other options of the class. This would show her the same things as an opponent would, plus not sour the event in her mind.

It might, and it's worth a try.

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."? Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

See my point above about DM'ing for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14).

[Mikal]

Have you ever DM'd for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14) before? I have. Your attitude won't work with that group in my experience. The climate at the table that our OP described would probably work, since the sorcie as described seems to be having fun. She's got something right about this game.
It might, and it's worth a try.
See my point above about DM'ing for a mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14).

There's a difference between playing for people ages 9-14 and playing with friends of an equal age.
If we were discussing teaching D&D to children or having them in a mixed group, then yes, certain latitudes should be made, but from what's been said in the thread so far that doesn't seem to be the case.

However, that being said even with those latitudes I as a DM wouldn't let the player just ignore the rules. I'd be using it to help teach the rules, either directly or with adult supervision to help with it.

If a 9 year old can use an iPad, they can remember what metamagic can do, or when to roll for an attack, especially if prompted from time to time by the DM or their teaching buddy.

[KorvinStarmast]

There's a difference between playing for people ages 9-14 and playing with friends of an equal age.

mixed group of adults and kids (ages 9-14) before?
That is what I wrote. You only responded to half of it. I do understand your reply, however.

[MeeposFire]

If they can't even be bothered to roll a d20 to attack, at what point do you say "thanks for stopping by, but no thanks."?

Personally, as a DM I think there's a minimum threshold here for player buy in, and this player isn't hitting it.

Honestly I do not know why this is an issue. Is she happy? Is the group operating under a happy dynamic on the whole? If you were in the group and were not so wrapped up in what this other playing was doing are you having fun?

If the answers are yes why should she have to change her play style to placate you? Who cares if she could do better as long as the group is doing fine? If she is having the amount of fun she wants what right do you have to take it away because you feel like she should be more active?

Just let the woman have her fun she is not hurting anybody is what I say. The OP did not mention any factors that I can recall that are causing any real problems only not liking that she is refusing to care about certain class features.

I remember back in 4e I played a lazy warlord which was playing the warlord class (a warrior type that was most well know for granting bonuses and extra attacks to party members) but taking only powers that did not require my warlord to attack or hit to work. So instead of using an attack where I roll a D20 to see if I hit and then I would affect other players I would use attacks that allowed me to get the others players to attack with bonuses. If I did not want to roll a D20 to attack I did not have to and the game was fun (in this case I found it fun because I got to play as a chess master moving pieces around the battlefield and telling them to attack).

She still has to choose targets. She still has to play a character. She still is involved with the game. Maybe she is not really into combat or she likes the simple pleasures of casting such an iconic spell (I attack the darkness!) anyway you slice it I do not see this being worth pushing somebody out of the game if she is not hurting the group (and I mean hurting not merely contributing as much as you might be able).

[Kane0]

I'm sort of surprised 2d8HP hasn't said anything yet. I think he'd be entirely in favor of this method of play, especially when it comes to casters.

[Arkhios]

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

[Kane0]

Ooh, this is the sort of situation where spell cards could really help out. Maybe make some similar ones for metamagic. Counters or something might also aid the resource management aspect.
Do you use laptops? There are plenty of options for alternate character sheets. I much prefer excel sheets, since I can lay it out how I like it for simplicity and add comments and such for extra info without cluttering everything up. That sort of thing might help too.

My previous posts stand as well, ask your DM about homebrew metamagic or just ripping out the feature in favor of some passive benefit to her preferred spell(s).

[Unoriginal]

No, her playstyle isn't hurting our group. It's not about that. And, I suppose I'm rephrasing a bit what I said earlier, but I wouldn't exactly say "I don't like that she refuses to choose X."

I'm worried that she's afraid to learn the rules entirely. As if the amount of details in the rulebook were somewhat intimidating to her.
She likes who her character is. She took a good while to come up with a background story for the character. But when it comes to taking a closer look into what else her character could do, something seems to be pushing her back. It's not that she didn't like D&D; in fact, she greatly prefers 5th edition to the only other similar game she's played before: Pathfinder. She is new to the hobby, but not that new. By the way, if it wasn't self-evident yet, she is my girlfriend/fiancé/soon-to-be-wife, so please, try to understand why I'm not so keen about trying to thrust a wedge between us by forcing her to leave the game - especially because she likes the game, despite some of its unpleasant sides.

We started playing 5th edition at the same time, and our first impression of 5th edition was that it would be easier to learn than Pathfinder, and I guess she convinced herself that 5th edition would be much less complicated than it actually is. And to be honest, she's not completely wrong. 5th edition is a lot less complicated than Pathfinder, but I guess she wanted to think that 5th edition was even less complex.

The difference between us is that I have played the game and its earlier editions for about 16 years - over three times as long as she has. I already know what to expect from D&D and its clones. Her experience is much less comprehensive, and I guess that's part of the reason why trying to learn the rules feels like such a big bogeyman to her.

The reason I started this thread was to find means to encourage her to invest more to the game so that she could find the courage to learn more on her own. I've found that Metamagic and the rest are just too much for her to handle with her limited experience and the amount of energy she is able invest due to her mentally strenuous job. I understand why she's not able to commit herself to the hobby as much as I am. I'm only trying to find ways to make it easier for her. I know that I said our DM is a stickler for RAW, but he's not an imbecile. He can be reasoned with, which is why I'm sort of trying to build a case to convince him if there was a plausible solution.

Well if it was what you wanted, you should have started with it.

IMO, the solution is, like many things about D&D: talk about it.

Talk about it with your fiancée. Talk about it with your DM. Talk about it with both of them.

If she likes 5e despite everything, and the group likes playing together, then I'm sure she can be convinced to write a few words on her sheet referring to abilities she's not going to use, and everything will be solved for both her and the DM.

What backstory did she decide for her character? Maybe it can be worked into that, for ex. that her magic is more rigid than most Sorcerers or that her training isn't that great.

If you *want* to help her be less "intimidated" by the rules, then talk with her about it. Just sit down and offer to explain the rules a bit more, when she can and want. Or just to explain the Sorcerer class.

As Kane0 said, spell cards or the like can be useful, too.