Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXV

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think the inclusion of cattle is problematic here if the intended culture is genuinely nomadic. Simply put, cattle aren't nomadic, they're pastoral. Sure, they can migrate long distances if required, but they aren't built to be almost permanently on the move. Also note that a horse-people don't need cattle for milk and meat - they have horses for that.

I'm referring to earlier peoples like the Skythians and Sauromatians here, rather than the Mongols, but they had huge herds of ponies and horses which was all they needed. Mares gave them milk which could be turned into cheese and fermented into an alcoholic drink, they had enough spares that if hunting was sparse they could kill a small pony and eat it. In their culture you weren't a "rider" (as in a horse-warrior) unless you owned at least four ponies, lords had hundreds of mounts, kings thousands. The way they covered huge distances was by only riding any one mount for a few hours before changing again, leading the remaining ponies on a string behind them.

The other important point is that they weren't independent of settled communities. They ruled over a great area of settled communities providing them "protection" from other nomads. As long as they could keep other nomadic peoples from raiding the settled farmers under their protection, they could claim tribute for the service, including grain and other produce. Those communities were also a source of new recruits, and a place for older riders to retire to. Along with potential places to go to pasture in the winter.

I may have been conflating nomadic and pastoral. I'm thinking that they have basically 4 camps (one for each season, with the winter one being combined, the spring and fall ones being large but not all the clans together, and the summer one being a few families together). Each year they'd decide (over the winter) which clans get which pastures. So they'd spend a month or two stationary, then travel for a few weeks and repeat.

The only hard-and-fixed parts are a) that they only allow one set of permanent buildings (the winter camp, run by a not-clan, non-migratory group) in their territory, b) they are the best horse people around and consider their horses to be special (rarely selling them, and only the poorer ones at that), and c) the basic terrain (wide-open plains of relatively lush grasslands with decent amounts of water).

[Kiero]

I may have been conflating nomadic and pastoral. I'm thinking that they have basically 4 camps (one for each season, with the winter one being combined, the spring and fall ones being large but not all the clans together, and the summer one being a few families together). Each year they'd decide (over the winter) which clans get which pastures. So they'd spend a month or two stationary, then travel for a few weeks and repeat.

The only hard-and-fixed parts are a) that they only allow one set of permanent buildings (the winter camp, run by a not-clan, non-migratory group) in their territory, b) they are the best horse people around and consider their horses to be special (rarely selling them, and only the poorer ones at that), and c) the basic terrain (wide-open plains of relatively lush grasslands with decent amounts of water).

Unless they're ranching very large spaces, I think it's going to be difficult for people spending months at a time stationary to really consider themselves nomadic horse people. Nomads in the real world were only stationary in winter when the ground was frozen and thus pasture was difficult. As soon as it thawed in the spring they and their herds were off again. They lived most of their lives in tents they brought with them, not under rooves. That breeds a level of horsemanship you can't get if you spend long periods going home to fixed places, rather than roving most of the year.

What you're describing are pastoralists who have long drives between their settled sites. They're also going to put a lot more store in property ownership and place than nomads. If nomads fall out with a people in an area, they just ride away and find somewhere else to stop. Pastoralists, on the other hand, are more likely to consider mobilising for warfare to take possession of what the opposing group has.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Unless they're ranching very large spaces, I think it's going to be difficult for people spending months at a time stationary to really consider themselves nomadic horse people. Nomads in the real world were only stationary in winter when the ground was frozen and thus pasture was difficult. As soon as it thawed in the spring they and their herds were off again. They lived most of their lives in tents they brought with them, not under rooves. That breeds a level of horsemanship you can't get if you spend long periods going home to fixed places, rather than roving most of the year.

What you're describing are pastoralists who have long drives between their settled sites. They're also going to put a lot more store in property ownership and place than nomads. If nomads fall out with a people in an area, they just ride away and find somewhere else to stop. Pastoralists, on the other hand, are more likely to consider mobilising for warfare to take possession of what the opposing group has.

That's what I'm not sure about. I want them to be good horsemen, and I want them to abhor fixed structures. I was thinking wheeled house-wagons, with the "camps" being a slow migration (so you'd not stay in the same exact place more than a couple days but wouldn't move as much over those summer months as during the traveling seasons.

Right now they don't have any other people except on their borders (the land got devastated and people are slowly spreading out and making contact again). I know they have issues with the other nations they're sandwiched between as those others expand, because both are pretty expansionist and settled, but so far it's only trouble on the horizon (as only a few traders have made significant contact).

[wolflance]

I'm a bit of a purist here and consider almost all Samurai armour to not really be full coverage. There's just too many weak spots in even the fullest samurai armour compared to equivalent European full plate.

Actually the MOST completely equipped Tosei Gusoku configuration (with mask and auxiliary armors) can compare quite favorably to that of a Churburg-type early plate armor (in term of coverage, not defense), although this really isn't a fair comparison (the period is different, Churburg plate by itself has some extremely large gaps, nothing beats mail armor in term of coverage, plus samurai rarely wore the full getup).

Full Japanese armor lose out on eye protection (mask still has rather large eyeholes), throat, elbows, and back calf, but it has two layers of upper arm defense (sode and kote) and two layers of thigh defense (kusazuri and haidate), better armpit defense (kote with mail that covers the entire armpit, plus wakibiki armpit plates, plus armored jacket. Churburg only has mail), on the main armor, on top of whatever auxiliary armor the samurai might wear under it (armored jacket and pants, armored under-belt, armored socks etc).

Like European armor, most gaps in Japanese armor could be and were covered with mail, or some other types of secondary armors (flexible brigandine for example).

[Kiero]

That's what I'm not sure about. I want them to be good horsemen, and I want them to abhor fixed structures. I was thinking wheeled house-wagons, with the "camps" being a slow migration (so you'd not stay in the same exact place more than a couple days but wouldn't move as much over those summer months as during the traveling seasons.

Right now they don't have any other people except on their borders (the land got devastated and people are slowly spreading out and making contact again). I know they have issues with the other nations they're sandwiched between as those others expand, because both are pretty expansionist and settled, but so far it's only trouble on the horizon (as only a few traders have made significant contact).

If the only other people around them are settled, they'll be better riders by default anyway. It's only if there are genuine nomads in the mix that you have to worry about them appearing inferior.

[Galloglaich]

I think the inclusion of cattle is problematic here if the intended culture is genuinely nomadic. Simply put, cattle aren't nomadic, they're pastoral. Sure, they can migrate long distances if required, but they aren't built to be almost permanently on the move. Also note that a horse-people don't need cattle for milk and meat - they have horses for that.

I'm referring to earlier peoples like the Skythians and Sauromatians here, rather than the Mongols, but they had huge herds of ponies and horses which was all they needed. Mares gave them milk which could be turned into cheese and fermented into an alcoholic drink, they had enough spares that if hunting was sparse they could kill a small pony and eat it. In their culture you weren't a "rider" (as in a horse-warrior) unless you owned at least four ponies, lords had hundreds of mounts, kings thousands. The way they covered huge distances was by only riding any one mount for a few hours before changing again, leading the remaining ponies on a string behind them.

The other important point is that they weren't independent of settled communities. They ruled over a great area of settled communities providing them "protection" from other nomads. As long as they could keep other nomadic peoples from raiding the settled farmers under their protection, they could claim tribute for the service, including grain and other produce. Those communities were also a source of new recruits, and a place for older riders to retire to. Along with potential places to go to pasture in the winter.

Good post but I do think the Mongols herded a lot of cattle and many of the turk or turkmen tribes were known for vast herds of sheep.

G

[Kiero]

Good post but I do think the Mongols herded a lot of cattle and many of the turk or turkmen tribes were known for vast herds of sheep.

G

Indeed, I'm nowhere near as knowledgeable about later steppe peoples, which is why I was keen to delineate my points to the earlier period. I'd have to ask my resident expert on the ancient steppe about any herding, but I'm pretty sure they relied on their client communities to do that for them, rather than lug livestock around.

[Haighus]

Why not have a hybrid society then? The pastoral herders move between the winter hold and the seasonal camps with their cattle herds, and a ruling mounted warrior class patrols the region with horse herds and is truly nomadic. In larger wars they could enlist infantry from the pastoral herders, but otherwise their cavalry is the main protection from raiders.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thanks all for the help. My last question is about density--how much land area was needed to support a civilization like that? I'm guessing it's much less dense than a fully agricultural society, but how much less dense? 1/10? 1/100? 1/5? Any guesses?

I have an area that's 11 700 mi² (15 30-mile-on-center hexes approximately). That's a smaller US state (between Maryland and West Virginia). If I want there to be ~50k people in this civilization (it's on the smaller side, and they're slow breeders, being elven), how much of that would they reasonably occupy on a regular basis?

[Galloglaich]

Thanks all for the help. My last question is about density--how much land area was needed to support a civilization like that? I'm guessing it's much less dense than a fully agricultural society, but how much less dense? 1/10? 1/100? 1/5? Any guesses?

I have an area that's 11 700 mi² (15 30-mile-on-center hexes approximately). That's a smaller US state (between Maryland and West Virginia). If I want there to be ~50k people in this civilization (it's on the smaller side, and they're slow breeders, being elven), how much of that would they reasonably occupy on a regular basis?

I can't answer that directly but I can perhaps raise the hood on what makes a horse nomad tick - the horses themselves (and cattle or sheep if they have them) eat a lot, and require a lot of land for grazing. This is one of the reasons, maybe the main reason why pastoral / nomads moved around so much. Depending on the size of the herd this may mean going around a kind of circuit, and say going up the mountains into the high pastures in the summer and then back down in the valleys and Steppes in the fall. But they have to gather a lot of fodder for Winter. If they had a really big herd then they needed to roam much further afield.

I know that in warfare this was a major issue for the Mongols. With each rider (each 'fighting rider') leading a string of as many as six horses, they often found that their ability to remain in one place in larger numbers (by large I mean, 10,000 or 20,000 men) was very limited. It's also one of the reasons they weren't good at sieges - they couldn't wait forever with all those horses.

Mongols were lucky (or smart) in that they had horses which could live exclusively on fodder, i.e grass- most horses require grain as well. Mongol ponies are therefore fantastic if you are the quartermaster of an army. But they go through a lot of grass - they needed plenty of water too- and it was a common thing, something their enemies such as the Poles and Hungarians figured out fairly quickly, that Mongol armies would have to disperse after a few weeks of siege and start foraging in smaller groups. And in spite of the legendary Tactical flexibility of the Hordes, this did make them vulnerable to a decisive, disciplined and well-organized enemy.

In that part of the world weather is also pretty extreme and they have to move around to avoid various natural catastrophes some of which occur on an annual basis: floods, bush-fires, droughts, outbreaks of disease, and of course the harsh freezes of winter and so forth.

To find your actual answer on the numbers of nomads who could be supported on a given parcel of land, maybe you could find some stats on the Lakota etc.

I know that the Golden Horde and the Crimean Khanates in Central Asia both had fairly low population density, very low by modern standards but low even by the Medieval. I have seen estimates of ~700,000 "Tartars" in the Golden Horde for much of what is now Belarus and Ukraine and a lot of Russia, at around the time of their peak in the later 14th C (~1360). That is post Black Death though so the numbers are probably much less than the early 14th C or the 13th. By comparison at that time I think Poland had around 2 million and France had maybe 20 or 30 million people.

When Stalin deported the Crimean Tatars in 1944 there were 191,000 of them. They were basically a settled people by then but it gives you some idea of the population density a few generations after the end of their nomadic lifestyle (probably of 80% of them). That is in an area roughly the size of Vermont (about 10,000 square miles).

If I had an NKVD gun to my head and had to guess I would say that is probably double what their population was 100 years earlier when they were still living that legit horse-nomad lifestyle.

G

[Kiero]

Mongols were lucky (or smart) in that they had horses which could live exclusively on fodder, i.e grass- most horses require grain as well. Mongol ponies are therefore fantastic if you are the quartermaster of an army. But they go through a lot of grass - they needed plenty of water too- and it was a common thing, something their enemies such as the Poles and Hungarians figured out fairly quickly, that Mongol armies would have to disperse after a few weeks of siege and start foraging in smaller groups. And in spite of the legendary Tactical flexibility of the Hordes, this did make them vulnerable to a decisive, disciplined and well-organized enemy.

I believe the Tarpan pony was the breed that could persist on grass alone indefinitely. It was known to the ancient steppe peoples, so the Mongols were inheriting a tradition of prizing that breed for the bulk of their riding needs.

Definitely an important point, not requiring grain for your mounts relieves you of a significant amount of logistical pressure in both finding and transporting fodder. Especially when you have so many beasts.

[Corneel]

That's what I'm not sure about. I want them to be good horsemen, and I want them to abhor fixed structures. I was thinking wheeled house-wagons, with the "camps" being a slow migration (so you'd not stay in the same exact place more than a couple days but wouldn't move as much over those summer months as during the traveling seasons.

Right now they don't have any other people except on their borders (the land got devastated and people are slowly spreading out and making contact again). I know they have issues with the other nations they're sandwiched between as those others expand, because both are pretty expansionist and settled, but so far it's only trouble on the horizon (as only a few traders have made significant contact).

You might want to have a look at the Fula People of the Sahel. Their not a perfect fit for what you want, but might give you some extra reference point and some different flavor, beyond the peoples of the Eurasian steppes who are the usual go to reference in Fantasy. Their culture is less horse-dominated, but their armies were certainly horse-based.

[Brother Oni]

Good post but I do think the Mongols herded a lot of cattle and many of the turk or turkmen tribes were known for vast herds of sheep.

Yup, the Mongols were pastoral nomads and had a large variety of cattle they led around; in order of ubiquity, sheep and horses, goats, yaks and oxen then camels.

Mongol organisation pre-Genghis was tribal and while it was hierarchical, it wasn't as ordered as the later decimal system introduced by Genghis. The hierarchical nature was very useful though as it allowed him to disperse up any new tribes added to his empire to help break up the old tribal loyalties.

I can't find an English source for the amount of land required, but modern horse husbandry recommends as a minimum 1.5 acres for the first 2 horses (ie 3 acres for 2 horses), then an additional 1 acre for each extra horse; this amount of land will provide enough fodder without the need for additional feed under normal circumstances.

The amount of cattle a person has of course varies, but looking at a modern nomad, a matriarch of a family has 2 horses, 20 cows and 50 sheep.

I've found mention of another modern pastoral nomad with 500 sheep and goats; he moves 2-3 times during summer then once in autumn and once in winter. He needs 2 hectares a day for all that livestock, each pasture takes 20-30 days to be restored, so 40-50 hectares (minimum) will be enough pasture for the summer. In winter he requires 900 ha for his sheep plus the sheep eat last year's grass.

I've also found a booklet on pasture management, but it's written in Mongolian Cyrillic: link. I'll see if Google Translate is any help.

[Kiero]

Strange that they'd mix some of those animals; cows don't like the smell of sheep (range wars in the 19th century US were triggered by this fact, bringing cattle-ranchers and sheep-herders into conflict, along with their very different approaches to enclosure), and pretty much no other animal likes the smell of camels.

[Brother Oni]

Strange that they'd mix some of those animals; cows don't like the smell of sheep (range wars in the 19th century US were triggered by this fact, bringing cattle-ranchers and sheep-herders into conflict, along with their very different approaches to enclosure), and pretty much no other animal likes the smell of camels.

The source wasn't clear on how the animals were kept, whether a single tribe kept all the animals or if each tribe kept only a selection: link.

[Corneel]

Strange that they'd mix some of those animals; cows don't like the smell of sheep (range wars in the 19th century US were triggered by this fact, bringing cattle-ranchers and sheep-herders into conflict, along with their very different approaches to enclosure), and pretty much no other animal likes the smell of camels.

Well the Tuareg have both camels and sheep. ETA and goats.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thanks everyone. My current plan is as follows:

* Total population: ~50k, all elves[1]
* 6 Clans:
** 2 horse clans
** 2 sheep clans
** 2 cattle clans

Clans are arranged so that one of each type is associated together into a super-clan.

The "elite" of each super-clan are the horse clan members. They are generally young and good fighters; the elderly and the young join one of the other clans.

Horse clans are about 5k people in 50 groups of 100 or so. They spread out early in the year, marking trails and locations for the slower, more pastoral clans that follow. They're pure nomads, roaming the plains and subsist by hunting and gathering and trading. They're the only ones allowed to deal with outsiders. I'm figuring 4 horses per person (since they're not in full army mode). They go way out far, occasionally stopping by the locations of the pastoral clans as they move.

Sheep and cattle clans are bigger, at 10k. Cattle clans are higher-status than sheep clans (which are where the unproved youth and those who haven't proved themselves yet go) and form the backbone of the nation (including the majority of the crafters). They spread out but tend to stay in place for a month or two at a time until the local pasturage is exhausted.

As winter approaches they all gather back up (both super-clans together) at a hidden, sacred location where a 7th clan (unlike the others in race as well as habits) lives year-round and farms/mines (their only source of metal other than trade). I'm thinking that they retreat into underground caves for much of the winter.

I'm thinking that they put ~30 miles between various clans at full extent (much more between the horse clans on average though).

Does this sound reasonable?

[1] note--my elves aren't super long-lived--these wood elves live ~120 years on average compared to ~80 for humans. They're not as slow breeding as "traditional" elves, but they're slower than humans slightly.

[Kiero]

Sounds workable. Bear in mind the horse-clans are going to be significantly more mobile than anyone else. If pushing it for a few weeks, a rider with four mounts can maintain an overland speed of about 100 miles in a day, though they'll need rest days quite frequently in that stretch, and a much longer rest when they reach their final destination. By contrast the cattle-clans will do well to manage 10 miles in a day.

I wonder if the Bantu pastoralists from southern Africa might be a good inspiration for the cattle-clans, since there's a vague usage of steppe nomads for the horse-clans. They could feature highly mobile infantry drawn from the herders and drovers (like the Zulu warriors).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sounds workable. Bear in mind the horse-clans are going to be significantly more mobile than anyone else. If pushing it for a few weeks, a rider with four mounts can maintain an overland speed of about 100 miles in a day, though they'll need rest days quite frequently in that stretch, and a much longer rest when they reach their final destination. By contrast the cattle-clans will do well to manage 10 miles in a day.

I wonder if the Bantu pastoralists from southern Africa might be a good inspiration for the cattle-clans, since there's a vague usage of steppe nomads for the horse-clans. They could feature highly mobile infantry drawn from the herders and drovers (like the Zulu warriors).

I'm counting on the horse clans being way more mobile than anyone else. That's kind of their role--to be the outriders, often spending weeks/months out of contact with the rest of the clans. They're not really going anywhere in particular, just wandering around keeping nasty things (mostly outsiders) away from the more vulnerable clans.

I'd expect the cattle clans to provide a bulk of infantry, with the sheep clans mostly acting as a refuge for the noncombatants of the cattle clans in bad situations. The big dangers are nasty wildlife and raiding groups rather than large-scale warfare (as their only close neighbors are too busy fighting on their other border to really make a mess with the clans.

[Corneel]

Thanks everyone. My current plan is as follows:

* Total population: ~50k, all elves[1]
* 6 Clans:
** 2 horse clans
** 2 sheep clans
** 2 cattle clans

Clans are arranged so that one of each type is associated together into a super-clan.

The "elite" of each super-clan are the horse clan members. They are generally young and good fighters; the elderly and the young join one of the other clans.

Horse clans are about 5k people in 50 groups of 100 or so. They spread out early in the year, marking trails and locations for the slower, more pastoral clans that follow. They're pure nomads, roaming the plains and subsist by hunting and gathering and trading. They're the only ones allowed to deal with outsiders. I'm figuring 4 horses per person (since they're not in full army mode). They go way out far, occasionally stopping by the locations of the pastoral clans as they move.

Sheep and cattle clans are bigger, at 10k. Cattle clans are higher-status than sheep clans (which are where the unproved youth and those who haven't proved themselves yet go) and form the backbone of the nation (including the majority of the crafters). They spread out but tend to stay in place for a month or two at a time until the local pasturage is exhausted.

As winter approaches they all gather back up (both super-clans together) at a hidden, sacred location where a 7th clan (unlike the others in race as well as habits) lives year-round and farms/mines (their only source of metal other than trade). I'm thinking that they retreat into underground caves for much of the winter.

I'm thinking that they put ~30 miles between various clans at full extent (much more between the horse clans on average though).

Does this sound reasonable?

[1] note--my elves aren't super long-lived--these wood elves live ~120 years on average compared to ~80 for humans. They're not as slow breeding as "traditional" elves, but they're slower than humans slightly.

Separating cattle and sheep does not make sense in a pastoralist society. The example given earlier about this separation concerned American ranchers. What I have consistently seen, hear about, and experienced, working for several years in countries (in Africa) where pastoralism is still very much a thing is that pastoralists in general have a mixture of larger animals (cattle and/or camels) and small ruminants (goats and sheep). That's because they fulfill different functions. The larger animals, apart from the occasional culling, are seldom killed for meat and their number is often the base for the social status of a family. The small ruminants, while also used for milk, are much more used as meat on the hoof annex bank account. Especially considering the limitations of preserving meat for longer periods of time.

[Brother Oni]

* Total population: ~50k, all elves[1]

From your earlier post, this is in an area of 11,700 square miles, giving a population density of 4.27 elves per square mile or 1.65 elves per km².

This isn't too far off Mongolia's 2016 average population density of 1.95 people per km², although ~73% of the population lives in urban areas.

In terms of ballpark figures, this sounds perfectly reasonable, along with the ~30 mile separation (assuming a circle of 15 mile radius, that's ~ 452 thousand acres per clan). A horse clan member with 3 changes of horses could clear this separation in about an hour, so you may think about increasing the distance if you want to emphasise the isolation.

[Max_Killjoy]

From your earlier post, this is in an area of 11,700 square miles, giving a population density of 4.27 elves per square mile or 1.65 elves per km².

This isn't too far off Mongolia's 2016 average population density of 1.95 people per km², although ~73% of the population lives in urban areas.

In terms of ballpark figures, this sounds perfectly reasonable, along with the ~30 mile separation (assuming a circle of 15 mile radius, that's ~ 452 thousand acres per clan). A horse clan member with 3 changes of horses could clear this separation in about half an hour, so you may think about increasing the distance if you want to emphasize the isolation.

60mph for 10 minutes each? (30 miles in 30 minutes would be 60mph, right?)

[PhoenixPhyre]

From your earlier post, this is in an area of 11,700 square miles, giving a population density of 4.27 elves per square mile or 1.65 elves per km².

This isn't too far off Mongolia's 2016 average population density of 1.95 people per km², although ~73% of the population lives in urban areas.

In terms of ballpark figures, this sounds perfectly reasonable, along with the ~30 mile separation (assuming a circle of 15 mile radius, that's ~ 452 thousand acres per clan). A horse clan member with 3 changes of horses could clear this separation in about half an hour, so you may think about increasing the distance if you want to emphasise the isolation.

I'm thinking that the horse clans would be much more spread out, and the others would be closer together (slightly). Still close enough to ride for warning/aid, but not so close as to be living in each other's dust.

[Brother Oni]

60mph for 10 minutes each? (30 miles in 30 minutes would be 60mph, right?)

Derp my bad, I meant an hour. From the Pony Express records , a horse can maintain its galloping pace for 10 miles and cover that distance in 20 minutes (hence why the waystations on the Pony Express were 10 miles apart).

I'm thinking that the horse clans would be much more spread out, and the others would be closer together (slightly). Still close enough to ride for warning/aid, but not so close as to be living in each other's dust.

I was under the impression that even if the pastoral clans didn't engage in warfare, they'd still have horses for herding.

The horse clans can't be that spread out from the pastoral clans, else their pathfinding and screening efforts would be in vain - too big a gap would let potential hostiles sneak through.

Taking the opportunity to crunch some more numbers, at 10,000 members per the larger clans with a typical suburban population density of 200 people per km², a whole clan would be spread over 50 km². Assuming on average an extended family unit of 10 elves possessing 500 sheep/goats (richer families could have more, poorer families have less), which requires 50 hectares in the summer, that's 50 kilohectares pasture for the whole clan, so they can sustain themselves and their half a million animals on 55 kilohectares or 550 km².

With ~452 thousand acres (1829 km²) allocated, they'd occupy a third of the space available. Note that in winter, the pasture requirement would jump to 900 ha per 500 sheep = 900,000 ha total (9,000 km²). This would require a circle of radius ~54km or 33.3 miles, making the separation ~67 miles. I'm not sure all the clans gathering very close together in a single camp for winter quarters is a viable option without some significant storage of fodder.

[Lemmy]

This reminds me... What would it take for a race/society to be able to live as nomads in a tundra or similar always-snowy region?

What if the race/society in question was incredibly resistant to cold and only needed half the amount of food humans do? What if they had permanent camps to use during the harshest days of winter?

Are there animals they could herd year-round for food in such a region?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm not sure all the clans gathering very close together in a single camp for winter quarters is a viable option without some significant storage of fodder.

I'm thinking that the stationary clan spends its time farming grain and vegetables and storing it away for the winter. It's a symbiotic relationship. I picture vast underground caverns used as storage depots, using simple magic to preserve meat, grain, hay, and other staples.

Another strange question--

how fine can you make chain armor if you don't really care about the protective qualities? I have a different culture that's highly militaristic (they've been fighting for years for their lives against frost creatures, but the threat has diminished recently) and I'm thinking that the rich people will take the armor/martial motif as their main fashion thing. The ruling culture is dragonborn (anthropomorphic scaled humanoid dragons), so scales/scale analogues/shiny bits should be a part of their fashion.

So I'm thinking at least decorative chain. Is it plausible to make very tiny links? Probably very expensive, but these are only the very upper class.

[Corneel]

Something like this?:

Spoiler: Large image

Show

https://www.modaoperandi.com/alexand...g-sleeve-dress

It's made of stainless steel and at over 8 000 USD it's certainly not cheap...

[snowblizz]

This reminds me... What would it take for a race/society to be able to live as nomads in a tundra or similar always-snowy region?

What if the race/society in question was incredibly resistant to cold and only needed half the amount of food humans do? What if they had permanent camps to use during the harshest days of winter?

Are there animals they could herd year-round for food in such a region?

Isn't that basically what inuit peoples do? Oh an derp! The Sami peoples ofc who herd reindeer.

I'm thinking that the stationary clan spends its time farming grain and vegetables and storing it away for the winter. It's a symbiotic relationship. I picture vast underground caverns used as storage depots, using simple magic to preserve meat, grain, hay, and other staples.

If you go too far north you just can't farm, period. The growth season is too short (some arctic plants eg need several seasons to "mature"). Which is why inuits fish and hunt seamammals and sami herd reindeer.

Another strange question--

how fine can you make chain armor if you don't really care about the protective qualities? I have a different culture that's highly militaristic (they've been fighting for years for their lives against frost creatures, but the threat has diminished recently) and I'm thinking that the rich people will take the armor/martial motif as their main fashion thing. The ruling culture is dragonborn (anthropomorphic scaled humanoid dragons), so scales/scale analogues/shiny bits should be a part of their fashion.

So I'm thinking at least decorative chain. Is it plausible to make very tiny links? Probably very expensive, but these are only the very upper class.

Yes. Afterall we can make very fine jewelry chain, you are ofc at some point limited by how thin the material can be due to properties of eg the metal. Like I'd imagine gold can be made into finer thread than steel. For practical armour it's really more of a limit on how small links was efficient to make, the larger links are easier to work but smaller links give better protection I'd say. But at some point you get to good enough protection where cost in making it becomes inefficient.

Which incidentally works as a handy status marker, the smaller the links and less "chainy" your material is the more impressive. Say for giggles that the royalt has chain link so fine it looks like a lace or silk fabric (maybe magically assisted workmanship) yet is made of gold or silver.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'm picturing a fine gold chain shirt deforming under its own weight.

No idea if a soft metal like gold would actually exceed its own strength in that situation.

[Brother Oni]

So I'm thinking at least decorative chain. Is it plausible to make very tiny links? Probably very expensive, but these are only the very upper class.

When making mail, there's three measurements you need to bear in mind, the gauge (thickness) of the wire, the diameter of the links and the weave (4 in 1, etc).

I believe the smallest practical gauge (thickness) wire for jewellery mail is 0.5mm.

This is what 3mm internal diameter mail links made from 0.5mm gauge wire looks like (I think it's 4 in 1):

Spoiler: Parinox mail apron

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Smaller links with thinner gauges would be possible but then you're running into issues of the tensile strength being sufficient to hold the shirt together.

Note that the links in the Parinox apron are closed by welding - in olden times, links are typically closed by rivets (the links are lapped, flattened, a hole drilled through the overlapping parts and a rivet put through) or butted (ie they're just pushed together with no additional reinforcement). Riveting mail is the standard for protective mail, but it's very time consuming and doesn't look as nice or feel as smooth; butting is much faster but is less protective and you need good closing, else the edges will catch.

Depending on the culture there are other shenanigans involved; the Romans punched whole links out of sheet metal, which cut their assembly time by half and the Japanese used slip links (like a key ring) in most of their mail along with a whole variety of weaves, including their own variant of 4 in 1.