Personal Woes and Advice 5

[Recherché]

That reminds me of my own situation. I'm supposed to be moving to Toronto for grad school in the beginning of September and I'm having a hell of a time finding housing. I got waitlisted for student housing and its extremely unlikely I'll get in, the university won't offer personalized assistance unless I go to one of their housing seminars but those are all booked up and I can't get in. And I can't even do any viewings or the like anyways because I'm currently on the West coast and I can't exactly pop over to view anything in person. I've been trying to message many many places but mostly I'm getting no reply or a flat no because I can't be there in person soon enough. The situation is playing havoc on my mental health and I've been having multiple panic attacks over it.

/rant

[WarKitty]

This is not always the case, at least where I am from. When big law firms recruit from the top college graduates, they ask for your high school transcript, a high school testimonial, and at least one reference from a high school teacher (in addition to materials related to your college studies and work history).

This is probably not the norm though. I just don't want people to think that their high school results are meaningless.

What I want to say is that, while it's probably easier if you have good high school records, it's quite possible to make a good life for yourself even if you completely screwed up high school. And there are things to do with your life that don't require a lot of academic skills, or a lot of skills in areas you struggle with.

It's not like if you messed up in high school you'll never get a job better than asking people if they want fries with that. There may be some areas it's harder to get into.

[ve4grm]

That reminds me of my own situation. I'm supposed to be moving to Toronto for grad school in the beginning of September and I'm having a hell of a time finding housing. I got waitlisted for student housing and its extremely unlikely I'll get in, the university won't offer personalized assistance unless I go to one of their housing seminars but those are all booked up and I can't get in. And I can't even do any viewings or the like anyways because I'm currently on the West coast and I can't exactly pop over to view anything in person. I've been trying to message many many places but mostly I'm getting no reply or a flat no because I can't be there in person soon enough. The situation is playing havoc on my mental health and I've been having multiple panic attacks over it.

/rant

Ugh, housing in TO is a pain, especially downtown. High demand, low availability, high costs.

If you're going to UofT, it's right on the subway line. You might want to look further afield if you can stand commuting via subway every day?

[Recherché]

Oh I'm already looking at places that are 45 minutes away by public transit. I've pretty much given up on the idea of actually living downtown

[Luz]

Hi guys it's me again, I have been lurking but decided to log in since Thor said a cleric of Loki killed Minrah and I was about to comment "Wasn't it a cleric of Hel?" but in meantime I realized it was Hilgya who did it.

Anyway, hi, I'm still depressed.

Stil stuck in a dumb job.

Still taking care of my mom.

Still gay and hating it.

I'm not going bald anymore os that's a plus.

Still considering suicide.

Still sad that no one would cry or care if I did.

How are you all folk? Doing good?

[The Fury]

Hi guys it's me again, I have been lurking but decided to log in since Thor said a cleric of Loki killed Minrah and I was about to comment "Wasn't it a cleric of Hel?" but in meantime I realized it was Hilgya who did it.

Anyway, hi, I'm still depressed.

Stil stuck in a dumb job.

Still taking care of my mom.

Still gay and hating it.

I'm not going bald anymore os that's a plus.

Still considering suicide.

Still sad that no one would cry or care if I did.

How are you all folk? Doing good?

How am I? ...Let's forget about that for a moment, I'd like to ask a couple things if you don't mind.

So you're gay... is that really such a terrible thing?

As for suicide... I don't feel like I'm the sort of person to help you through those feelings but you have the number for the crisis hotline, right? Here's the U.S. National Suicide Prevention Hotline in case you don't: 1 (800) 273-8255

As for other things that might help you with what you're going through... I don't know you well enough to offer suggestions. Though constructive activities usually help me. (I had a baking phase for a long time.)

[Thrawn4]

As for other things that might help you with what you're going through... I don't know you well enough to offer suggestions. Though constructive activities usually help me. (I had a baking phase for a long time.)

This so much!
I also recommend exercising, does wonders for me.

But as The Fury said... what is your issue with being gay? Maybe we can provide a different perspective.

[Luz]

So you're gay... is that really such a terrible thing?

Yes, I hate it.
People hate it.
My parents hate it.
My faith hate it.
My co-workers hate it.
My God hate it.
Other people I don't even know hate me for being something I can't help being.

I long for a relashionship with someone but gays are just... They are kind of huge jerks most of the time.

They are vain and superficial, guys in general are jerks gays are no exception.

I'm forced to stay with my family becuase my mother is in need of medical care and I'm forced to stay in Narnia becuase of it.

I'm tired and I hate it it's a game I can't win.

If I'm in the closet I'm sad ebcuase I can't be who I'm.

If I'm out I have to deal with a toxic culture full of terrible people with unhealthy beauty standards and sexual expectations.

The last few days I haven't even got out of bed because life is just such a joyless chore I'm forced to do.

Everything seems pointless and tasteless.

I hate it all!

[Thrawn4]

Yes, I hate it.
People hate it.
[...]
I long for a relashionship with someone but gays are just... They are kind of huge jerks most of the time.

They are vain and superficial, guys in general are jerks gays are no exception.

I could be completely wrong, but it sounds to me like you hate it because of your expectations how other people behave or react...

People hate a lot of stuff. Vegans, meat eaters, communists, capitalists, religious zealots, atheists, or even children... but that does not mean they have good reasons to do so. You can either acknowledge that their reasons are not very cohesive and they have to learn, or you acknowledge that they are dumb as **** and you are better off without them. That's easier said than done, of course, but this does not mean that the premise is not sound.

I would also like to add that gay people are not by definition vain or anything like that. I mean, it IS a stereotype, but in my experience, one be vain or not, independent of their sexual orientation, in the same way that people can be jerks or not, independent of their other traits.

[The Fury]

Yes, I hate it.
People hate it.
My parents hate it.
My faith hate it.
My co-workers hate it.
My God hate it.
Other people I don't even know hate me for being something I can't help being.

I long for a relashionship with someone but gays are just... They are kind of huge jerks most of the time.

They are vain and superficial, guys in general are jerks gays are no exception.

I'm forced to stay with my family becuase my mother is in need of medical care and I'm forced to stay in Narnia becuase of it.

I'm tired and I hate it it's a game I can't win.

If I'm in the closet I'm sad ebcuase I can't be who I'm.

If I'm out I have to deal with a toxic culture full of terrible people with unhealthy beauty standards and sexual expectations.

The last few days I haven't even got out of bed because life is just such a joyless chore I'm forced to do.

Everything seems pointless and tasteless.

I hate it all!

While I'm not going to try to downplay what you're feeling, I feel like you're only half right. Some people might hate you for reasons that you can't help, (though as Thrawn pointed out, their reasons for it probably aren't good reasons,) there's other people out there that might actually like you.

Granted, if it's causing issues with your religion and close family... that's tough. I'm not going to lie, that is tough. I don't think that's something I can comment on in any sort of substantive way.

As for unrealistic beauty standards that out gay men deal with... I'm not sure what you mean by that. Most gay men I've met seem to run a pretty wide gamut of what they're attracted to. Maybe a certain type of personality holds themselves to an unrealistic standard, maybe your own experience isn't the same as mine.

[ArlEammon]

Yes, I hate it.
People hate it.
My parents hate it.
My faith hate it.
My co-workers hate it.
My God hate it.
Other people I don't even know hate me for being something I can't help being.

I long for a relashionship with someone but gays are just... They are kind of huge jerks most of the time.

They are vain and superficial, guys in general are jerks gays are no exception.

I'm forced to stay with my family becuase my mother is in need of medical care and I'm forced to stay in Narnia becuase of it.

I'm tired and I hate it it's a game I can't win.

If I'm in the closet I'm sad ebcuase I can't be who I'm.

If I'm out I have to deal with a toxic culture full of terrible people with unhealthy beauty standards and sexual expectations.

The last few days I haven't even got out of bed because life is just such a joyless chore I'm forced to do.

Everything seems pointless and tasteless.

I hate it all!

I feel the same way about my sexuality, I'm bi. I'm sorry you don't feel good about this.

[Mith]

Yes, I hate it.
People hate it.
My parents hate it.
My faith hate it.
My co-workers hate it.
My God hate it.
Other people I don't even know hate me for being something I can't help being.

I long for a relashionship with someone but gays are just... They are kind of huge jerks most of the time.

They are vain and superficial, guys in general are jerks gays are no exception.

I'm forced to stay with my family becuase my mother is in need of medical care and I'm forced to stay in Narnia becuase of it.

I'm tired and I hate it it's a game I can't win.

If I'm in the closet I'm sad ebcuase I can't be who I'm.

If I'm out I have to deal with a toxic culture full of terrible people with unhealthy beauty standards and sexual expectations.

The last few days I haven't even got out of bed because life is just such a joyless chore I'm forced to do.

Everything seems pointless and tasteless.

I hate it all!

While I am not a part of the LGBT2S community, I can at least try and give you my perspective. Your specific thoughts can all be categorised as "People suck, but in different ways."

While you cannot help with some cases, such as co workers and family relationships, you can choose try and build a road out. If anyone cannot see your value because you are homosexual, then they are not worth your time. You are not suppose to tourture yourself just to fit a mould that other people place on you.

If people are failing you, and are not looking at changing to help you, then you need new people. And the world does have people that exceed the expectations you hold of them. I would think this thread is proof of that.

I do not know your situation for how you could go about changing this, but I can tell you that the change is possible.

As far as your personsl faith goes, due to forum rules, and my personal lack of actual theological training, I cannot help you there.

[Spore]

As much as I hate to interrupt your advice session, I sorely need advise myself. Recently - 18 days ago precisely - my mother called me during late shift. We are not allowed phones during work hours. Mine were from 5.20 pm to 11.50 pm. My mom called about 9pm. As it was a slow day and I was bored at work, I decided to check my phone regardless. (If you have ever not done ANYTHING besides waiting for customers for 3 hours straight you know the feel). I got the following:

Spoiler

Show

7.57: Meme Image with the words: "That is it, I've had enough." probably regarding her current work situation
8.27pm: Hey you :)
8.48pm: Can I speak my son or is your mother annoying you?
I responded
8.58 I am at work until 11pm.
8.58 Normally I would not even be able to reply but currently no one is here

Her response:
9.04pm Sorry that I am alive. I will never contact you again. You are right, I am grown up myself and am able to manage it [sic: her situation at work] myself but it is easier to vent to someone.

I responded after work:
10.19pm (actually 40 minutes before my official shift has ended but I was done exceptionally early)
You showed me that during working hours you should not call your family because you should work during working hours. And now you are blaming me for not being available during work? I don't understand that. You know you can call me at work if there are emergencies. But I dont have the ability to phone your for a longer period of time at work [sic: referring to our usual hour long calls where she vents and I vent]. If you want to call me, I am finished in 10 minutes. You can also call me tomorrow until 3pm. If you have lost the number of my work place , it was [redacted]. Love you [Sporeegg]

Then at home I wrote the following (which now that I check it apparently never got to her as she blocked my contact):

10.47pm If you want to call me, I have time now. It is important to me that you are well off and I am doing everything I can that it stays this way. If you have seen me online yesterday, that was because I had a break from work [and was allowed on my phone]. I officially work until 10.50pm this week. The break is around 5.30 til 6pm.

She responded:
next day, 7.38pm (during my work hours again)
Yes [referring to my response on 10.19 apparently] when I am at work this takes precedence but I have also taught you social responsibility for parents, kids and life partners but you can also deal with that alone
I have dealt with much and what lies in front of me I can deal with alone.

My response (after calling her in the middle of the night):
11.05 You're asleep arent you?

7 days later she congratulates me to my birthday at 19.46 but refuses to answer my call. I have tried to call her three times (once on the 17th of August, once on the 18th, once on my bday on 25th of August). The call ended after a few rings at the mailbox.

I am devastated, I don't know what to do. Simultaneously I am pissed off enough to not apologize for a mistake I have not made. Because that is my mom's way of manipulating people. She guilt-trips people. She also has a knack for manipulating the opinions of others. Gladly she also worked her butt off to provide me with enough education to see through her manipulation, leaving me most often to not tell her my opinion on a topic because she will then simply refuse to accept any opinion opposing hers and shut down every canal of communication.

Yes my mother is a somewhat toxic person but she is also my mom and the only thing remaining what I could call a family since she has beef with my uncle and aunt (regarding the caretaking of my deceased grandfather). And my father and his family are completely out of the picture. How I see it it is a deeply broken personality that wants to pull others down to her level so she doesn't feel as miserable and I have had enough even though I deeply hate that feeling as well. She thinks more highly about psychology after her deceased boyfriend's son showed her his doctoral thesis but she is someone who takes pride in being able to truck on regardless of her own situation. I admire her for that but I don't want to excuse myself for something I did not do wrong.

[dehro]

I'm not sure what the advice is you're looking for or if you're just venting. It seems to me you've got her pretty much figured out and have done nothing wrong. I'm a bit confused by the level of formality of your interactions or how you relate them here, or maybe that's a matter of language usage that is not part of how I relate to people in general, family in particular..
It seems to me her reactions were super drammatic and quite likely there was no reason for that to be the case (my own mother is also something of a drama queen, though she's gotten much better lately, so I'm familiar with the scenario and it's controlling nature)...

It was probably a case of her being very stressed at that particular time, something you could have identified and managed better, but then, it's really not your task or duty to manage your mother's stress or accomodate every interaction accordingly, because that way you'd just be indulging and enabling the drama and the taking of control of the conversation on her part. Her blocking you is nonsensical and childish, but either you call her out on it or you let it go until she's unblocked you...
Not sure if any of the above helped or if I'm just missing the mark on what you're looking for.
Personally, I'd write her a letter or email to clarify how her behaviour makes you feel and that you're not going to indulge her attempts at manipulation, that you've done nothing wrong and that you're willing to let it go regardless, if she stops being a moron about it (wrap it up in an acceptable manner, of course).. and would further wait for her to make the next move..however much it may take. You don't need that kind of drama in your life, nobody does.. and if she doesn't take the next step you can be sure that drama is going to continue or possibly increase.
When my mother took a few actions on my behalf that were done with good intentions but mainly in a manner that put her at the center of the action (both because that's her natural inclination and because she wanted to feel helpful) and put me in a very unconfortable position work-wise, I wrote to her to explain why I was mad at her for having done so and what the consequences would be (incidentally, we're also talking about a scenario involving my job at the time, so it's fairly similar)...
I was fully prepared for her to reply with a poison laden answer, going on the offense to "put me in my place" because she was being a good mother and I should be grateful and "I'm sorry if my existence is a bother to you, I'll try never to help you again" sort of thing... instead she understood my issues with her actions at the time and actually apologised.
Just be clear, respectful and offer a full explanation of your motives for writing and the reasons why you felt put on the spot by her behaviour...and she might just surprise you by reacting positively and see things your way.

[Glass Mouse]

Oh geez. This is like a textbook example of why the silent treatment is so effective and abusive. I’m sorry your mom is being a toxic jerk right now.

It sounds like this is a recurring pattern? As in: she blows up unexpectedly, you try frantically to fix things, she withdraws and makes it near-impossible to fix things, and you keep trying until she eventually warms up, gracefully forgiving you until the next blow-up.

It is definitely toxic, and a way to make sure your entire attention is focused on her while keeping the resolution firmly out of your grasp. It’s a game you can’t win. It’s a power play, plain and simple.

What would happen if you short-circuited that process? Right now, she is deliberately making it impossible to actually talk it out in a reasonable fashion. She is setting you up to fail. So what happens if you stop playing the game on her premises?

Namely, what would happen if you stop engaging with her, at all, during work hours? You know this thing isn’t an actual emergency, otherwise she would have taken your offer of actually talking at some point. What would happen if you stop trying to reach her beyond the initial telling her “I am free at X time, feel free to call me then”. No calling her at night, no follow-up text messages to soothe things over, just waiting for her to make the next move.

What would happen if you forever and always ignore her during work hours unless the word “emergency” is present in her text?

What would happen if you completely ignore the guilt trip parts of her communication? If you wait until you are off work and then cheerfully answer “Hi mom, I’m free to talk now, what did you need?” while not engaging with the reasons you couldn’t talk, while not defending yourself at all. What would happen if you keep repeating it?
You: Hi mom, I’m free to talk now, what did you need?
Mom: Why couldn’t you talk to your own mom? Am I really such a burden?
You: I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m free now, though. What did you want to talk about?
Mom: I can’t believe you’d ignore me. I raised you to take social responsibility.
You: That’s true, and I’m free now. So what did you want to talk about?
Mom: You don’t love me. I’m sorry I exist.
You: That’s not true. What was the thing you actually called to talk to me about? I’m free now, so let’s talk about that.

Repeat ad nauseum. Hang up if necessary. Your new best friends are: “I’m sorry you feel that way”, “That’s not true”, “That’s true”, “That sounds tough”, etc. immediately followed by a topic change. Those are non-apologies and generally reviled for a reason, but they are perfect for a situation like this where you have not actually done anything wrong.

You cannot win this by engaging. Your mom is not reasonable around this. Your mom wants you to fail, to get you drawn into the spiral of guilt and self-hate and drama. You cannot fix the spiral on its own premises. Your only bet is to refuse to engage.

Obligatory link to Captain Awkward who is really good at advising around boundary trampling manipulation like this.

[Cozzer]

Yeah, when somebody makes you jump through their hoops to avoid their anger, if you do jump through the hoops your only reward will be more hoops (and also anger, because did you really believe it would work). Her goal is not for you to do what she wants, is for her to have something to berate you for. If she asks for N and you do N, suddenly she will have always needed N+1.

Decide what the rules are for somebody to interact with you (hopefully, one of these rules will be "not making you feel like crap through passive-aggressive emotional manipulations and threats"), state them and enforce them. After all, this comic teaches us that sometimes, you have to look into your parent's eyes while they're dangling from an airship and asking you to compromise your whole life to save them, and tell them "you'll live".

[halfeye]

What would happen if you forever and always ignore her during work hours unless the word “emergency” is present in her text?

That question has a simple answer, every text from then on would contain the word "emergency". Lying is so simple, and they're always "white lies" (no, all lies are black, some are smaller than others, but they're all black).

Yeah, when somebody makes you jump through their hoops to avoid their anger, if you do jump through the hoops your only reward will be more hoops (and also anger, because did you really believe it would work). Her goal is not for you to do what she says she wants, is for her to have something to berate you for. If she asks for N and you do N, suddenly she will have always needed N+1.

Fixed that for you.

</rant>

[Spore]

I'm not sure what the advice is you're looking for or if you're just venting. It seems to me you've got her pretty much figured out and have done nothing wrong. I'm a bit confused by the level of formality of your interactions or how you relate them here, or maybe that's a matter of language usage that is not part of how I relate to people in general, family in particular..

Stuff is translated from German but I tend to become very formal when doing delicate "hostage negotiations" like these. I have learnt that one misplaced word means an utter meltdown.

It seems to me her reactions were super drammatic and quite likely there was no reason for that to be the case (my own mother is also something of a drama queen, though she's gotten much better lately, so I'm familiar with the scenario and it's controlling nature)...

Correct but there's one thing with my mom. I can usually tell these meltdowns happen when she is tired, drunk AND depressed. I don't want to analyze her psychological profile via arm-chair science but I assume so.

It was probably a case of her being very stressed at that particular time, something you could have identified and managed better, but then, it's really not your task or duty to manage your mother's stress or accomodate every interaction accordingly, because that way you'd just be indulging and enabling the drama and the taking of control of the conversation on her part.

Usually I can help her with advice though. I have grown up with her as a single mother and she allowed me to even - unsuccessfully due to my own problems - study chemistry and later on education. That does mean I see life from a vastly different perspective. But her situation currently does not allow for "tactics". Basically they both share the manager position in a small discount supermarket. Both want to become manager (she needs it for her retirement plan, he needs it to provide for his family) and she is the vastly superior candidate but she is "old" (55 is not what I would call old, esp. when it is a 55 year old that goes to work with a pneumonia) and thus her bosses want the younger candidate (even though he is mordibly obese and could honestly die earlier than my mom despite being 30).

Advising her on applying elsewhere are struck down as she believes she cannot apply successfully elswhere. For the average 55 y/o I would agree but not for her. She has excellent credentials but her CV also shows she likes to pick fights with bosses when she feels they're wrong, making her an effective but extremely unpleasant person to work with.

Her blocking you is nonsensical and childish, but either you call her out on it or you let it go until she's unblocked you...

She already did. I assume she is waiting for my apology. A thing which - as peace-loving as I am - I will not provide THIS time. I have had enough.

Not sure if any of the above helped or if I'm just missing the mark on what you're looking for.
Personally, I'd write her a letter or email to clarify how her behaviour makes you feel and that you're not going to indulge her attempts at manipulation, that you've done nothing wrong and that you're willing to let it go regardless, if she stops being a moron about it (wrap it up in an acceptable manner, of course).. and would further wait for her to make the next move..however much it may take. You don't need that kind of drama in your life, nobody does.. and if she doesn't take the next step you can be sure that drama is going to continue or possibly increase.

I have thought about that. I have even thought about telling my side of the story, offering forgetting anything happened but she could as well shut down completely, excluding me from her life; a life in which only two cats remain because she pushes away friends, partners and even neighbors. It deeply saddens me to the point where I have to actively try not to cry as I am typing this.

When my mother took a few actions on my behalf that were done with good intentions but mainly in a manner that put her at the center of the action (both because that's her natural inclination and because she wanted to feel helpful) and put me in a very unconfortable position work-wise, I wrote to her to explain why I was mad at her for having done so and what the consequences would be (incidentally, we're also talking about a scenario involving my job at the time, so it's fairly similar)...

My job is fairly laid-back (because they struggle to find replacement for the bad pay they offer) regarding this and I am not even mad she tried to contact me during work hours. It is just the hypocrisy of "being taught x" and not doing x herself. As usually she is quite a role model in the things she taught me.

I was fully prepared for her to reply with a poison laden answer, going on the offense to "put me in my place" because she was being a good mother and I should be grateful and "I'm sorry if my existence is a bother to you, I'll try never to help you again" sort of thing... instead she understood my issues with her actions at the time and actually apologised.
Just be clear, respectful and offer a full explanation of your motives for writing and the reasons why you felt put on the spot by her behaviour...and she might just surprise you by reacting positively and see things your way.

Let me just hope you are right. But I am not content with making amends with her. I realize I cannot undo decades of psychological damage with her but I don't want her to suffer that much. She is depressed, and with our universal health care we can afford to get psychological help. But I don't know if she will react positively to me suggesting psychological help (the second thing is: I might need it myself too, making me a hypocrite for not working on myself in the same time).

Oh geez. This is like a textbook example of why the silent treatment is so effective and abusive. I’m sorry your mom is being a toxic jerk right now.

It sounds like this is a recurring pattern? As in: she blows up unexpectedly, you try frantically to fix things, she withdraws and makes it near-impossible to fix things, and you keep trying until she eventually warms up, gracefully forgiving you until the next blow-up.

Usually not recurring. She had those episodes during my late teenage years (to be fair I was a **** kid at the time) but I have methods to drown out the guilt with meaningless busy-work (playing games, connecting with friends etc).

It is definitely toxic, and a way to make sure your entire attention is focused on her while keeping the resolution firmly out of your grasp. It’s a game you can’t win. It’s a power play, plain and simple.

Yes it is a power play. But I don't mind the consequences, which would be long phone calls with her, which I truly enjoy. But when she calls every other day requesting to talk about the same five questions, it becomes tiring. so I decided to put her on speaker and do things while talking to her. A move she did not like very much.

What would happen if you short-circuited that process? Right now, she is deliberately making it impossible to actually talk it out in a reasonable fashion. She is setting you up to fail. So what happens if you stop playing the game on her premises?

I assume she would stop talking to me alltogether. we had a falling out in December of 2013 when she said "I don't care if you come home for Christmas" which I took at face value. She called me in tears why I decided not to join her on Christmas (which to be fair WAS a **** move but she gave me the option didnt she?). She stopped talking to her siblings about 7 and 15 years ago, so I can assume she can be VERY adamant about that.

Namely, what would happen if you stop engaging with her, at all, during work hours? You know this thing isn’t an actual emergency, otherwise she would have taken your offer of actually talking at some point. What would happen if you stop trying to reach her beyond the initial telling her “I am free at X time, feel free to call me then”. No calling her at night, no follow-up text messages to soothe things over, just waiting for her to make the next move.

Oh, I cannot anyways. If I am not alone in the shop I can't use my phone anyhow.

What would happen if you forever and always ignore her during work hours unless the word “emergency” is present in her text?

What would happen if you completely ignore the guilt trip parts of her communication? If you wait until you are off work and then cheerfully answer “Hi mom, I’m free to talk now, what did you need?” while not engaging with the reasons you couldn’t talk, while not defending yourself at all. What would happen if you keep repeating it?
You: Hi mom, I’m free to talk now, what did you need?
Mom: Why couldn’t you talk to your own mom? Am I really such a burden?
You: I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m free now, though. What did you want to talk about?
Mom: I can’t believe you’d ignore me. I raised you to take social responsibility.
You: That’s true, and I’m free now. So what did you want to talk about?
Mom: You don’t love me. I’m sorry I exist.
You: That’s not true. What was the thing you actually called to talk to me about? I’m free now, so let’s talk about that.

Repeat ad nauseum. Hang up if necessary. Your new best friends are: “I’m sorry you feel that way”, “That’s not true”, “That’s true”, “That sounds tough”, etc. immediately followed by a topic change. Those are non-apologies and generally reviled for a reason, but they are perfect for a situation like this where you have not actually done anything wrong.

I am not the type for this. I would fold. I know myself.

You cannot win this by engaging. Your mom is not reasonable around this. Your mom wants you to fail, to get you drawn into the spiral of guilt and self-hate and drama. You cannot fix the spiral on its own premises. Your only bet is to refuse to engage.

I do not assume she wants me to fail. She just wants someone to care for her in an unreasonable manner (aka reading minds). She is usually the person to call and she told me time and time again she would like ME to call her from time to time. Yet when I call her, the call ends after 15 minutes, but when she calls me, we talk 1-3 hours.

Obligatory link to Captain Awkward who is really good at advising around boundary trampling manipulation like this.

I'll give it a read later. e: Skimmed it. Thing is, I can let it rest easily until Christmas. But when that rrolls around I will not invite myself to her place and I WILL get insulting or teary-eyed mails or calls why I didnt want to join her for christmas.

Yeah, when somebody makes you jump through their hoops to avoid their anger, if you do jump through the hoops your only reward will be more hoops (and also anger, because did you really believe it would work). Her goal is not for you to do what she wants, is for her to have something to berate you for. If she asks for N and you do N, suddenly she will have always needed N+1.

While correct no one is 100% manipulative. Her goal is not to berate me. I assume her goal is to have a 24/7 hotline to dump her emotional baggage. A thing which I am willing to provide by the way, just not 24/7. More like "extended business hours" (8am-10 pm?) excluding work hours of course.

Decide what the rules are for somebody to interact with you (hopefully, one of these rules will be "not making you feel like crap through passive-aggressive emotional manipulations and threats"), state them and enforce them. After all, this comic teaches us that sometimes, you have to look into your parent's eyes while they're dangling from an airship and asking you to compromise your whole life to save them, and tell them "you'll live".

I assume you mean something from Elan and his father but I started actively reading the comic during the whole Durkula kills the world saga, which honestly is not relevant at all.

That question has a simple answer, every text from then on would contain the word "emergency". Lying is so simple, and they're always "white lies" (no, all lies are black, some are smaller than others, but they're all black).

Again I will not believe my mom is that nuts. She might have a warped sense of what she deems "appropriate behaviour regarding family" but she is not an attention whore. Else she would not have cut off all of her contacts for slightly criticizing her way of life.

[dehro]

Advising her on applying elsewhere are struck down as she believes she cannot apply successfully elswhere.

My mother has spent years commiserating her unemployment whilst at the same time not putting her CV in any number of letterboxes...I am familiar with what you're saying. Many of your issues with her are similar, though maybe hightened issues I and my siblings have/have had with our mother. It must be something in the northern winds, as our mother is Dutch :P

Let me just hope you are right. But I am not content with making amends with her. I realize I cannot undo decades of psychological damage with her but I don't want her to suffer that much. She is depressed, and with our universal health care we can afford to get psychological help. But I don't know if she will react positively to me suggesting psychological help (the second thing is: I might need it myself too, making me a hypocrite for not working on myself in the same time).

If you suggest it in a respectful way, during a conversation where you refuse to engage or indulge in her blame game or misery complaints, then she might just listen.. mine did not when I suggested it, or rather, considered it and then decided against it for a whole bunch of reasons I won't get into (which quite possibly were invalid and mere attempts at getting out of the proposition.
I'd note that if she accepted, there's a very good chance that you would be called to assist/participate/be an active part in her therapy, so maybe it's worth suggesting you'd happily do so and maybe find someone who can help you both....but this is me talking from a standpoint of having, so far, refused to do the same myself, so hypocrisy is not such a rare phenomenon in these situations, as you can see.

she is not an attention whore. Else she would not have cut off all of her contacts for slightly criticizing her way of life.

correction.. you're still there.. she still has an audience, and one that she's fairly confident she can keep on a leash.
Sorry for being harsh, but you need to see this. Whether it's attention whore-ism or a different issue that manifests in the same way and is quite possibly also related to depression I can't know..but don't underestimate the resourcefulness of someone who is manipulative, depressed and in a position of moral and emotional authority over you. She can actively wrap you around her finger, if she really sets her mind to it. Now, it's quite possible that she doesn't mean to do this, or she doesn't know she's doing it.. but I would be cautious and I would not ignore the false notions you might have about the (partially co-dependent?) nature of your mutual relationship.

[Cozzer]

While correct no one is 100% manipulative. Her goal is not to berate me. I assume her goal is to have a 24/7 hotline to dump her emotional baggage. A thing which I am willing to provide by the way, just not 24/7. More like "extended business hours" (8am-10 pm?) excluding work hours of course.

Look, please don't take the wrong way, but... the behavior you describe is being 100% manipulative. What you propose (regularly being the recycle bin in which she can dump her emotional garbage) is already something that a self-caring person would never do on a regular basis. Not for a friend, not for a partner, and especially not for a parent. And still, even that's not enough for her!

She's not doing this 100% of the time, sure. But if she makes it clear she could do it anytime, and expects you to be there whenever she does it, then on an emotional level it's exactly like she was doing it anytime, because it will be in the back of your head 100% of the time.

(About the comic you're right, I was referring to the whole Elan & Tarquin subplot, in which Elan has to deal with a manipulative, emotionally abusing father... which is also an Evil dictator, because this it's all through an epic fantasy lens, after all)

She might have a warped sense of what she deems "appropriate behaviour regarding family" but she is not an attention whore. Else she would not have cut off all of her contacts for slightly criticizing her way of life.

Uh... again, please don't take this the wrong way buuuuut... that's exactly the kind of thing a so-called "attention whore" (I don't really like the term, tbh, but it works) does, you know?

[Florian]

@Luz:

You're living a southern red state or something?

@Sporeegg:

Don't ever mistake a parent/child relationship with friendship. It is not and gateway to something like the **** happening with homeschooling.

[The Fury]

So... I've decided that I'm going to do something that I hope will be good for me. I found out about a meet-up for comics creators of all skill levels. Since I've been having these feelings of shame about drawing comics for years, I agreed to go.

Why am I posting that information here? Mainly because announcing plans makes them feel more official. Hopefully now I won't chicken out and not go.

[dehro]

So... I've decided that I'm going to do something that I hope will be good for me. I found out about a meet-up for comics creators of all skill levels. Since I've been having these feelings of shame about drawing comics for years, I agreed to go.

Why am I posting that information here? Mainly because announcing plans makes them feel more official. Hopefully now I won't chicken out and not go.

let us know how it went

[The Fury]

let us know how it went

Sure, you bet.

Right now I'm still horribly nervous about it, and it's almost a week until it happens. I probably shouldn't be feeling this way, heck I used to really enjoy doing stuff like this. On the other hand, I feel like I'm not really the same person anymore. I guess I'm a little excited, but I'm also kind of dreading it.

[Spore]

Just a bit of feedback. I called my mother today. She picked up and we had a normal talk as if nothing had happened. Either the situation defused itself, or there is more to come. For now I am in the green. I'll call her weekly on sundays when I have the time but I didn't tell her about it.

[dehro]

She picked up and we had a normal talk as if nothing had happened. Either the situation defused itself, or there is more to come. For now I am in the green.

yeah.. no... it's just a reprieve. It's in her interest to make as if nothing happened. That way you'll be available for the next time she needs to vent or take it out on somebody.

[The Fury]

So... I went to the comics creator meet-up. It was... really weird. I didn't chicken out and not go, so there's that. While it was really cool to see the stuff that other people were working on, it felt like it was mostly professional writers and professional artists. And me.

The overall feel of the room though? You know the Media Discussion section of this forum? It was kind of like an IRL version of that. So, mostly OK, but I accidentally activated someone's nerd rage. Classic The Fury.

I was really hoping that I wouldn't be so on the fence about showing up again. I'm not sure if the group wants me to come again, or they'd rather I go somewhere else and are too polite to tell me. If it's the latter, at least I brought them cookies so hopefully there's no hard feelings.

[WarKitty]

One more bit of rambling on therapy:

I don't think I ever brought up stuff about my mother in therapy. Because at the time I hadn't really realized that was an issue. I was still in the mindset that we had a normal relationship and if I got what was wrong with me fixed then it would be ok. I didn't bring it up because as far as I was concerned, it wasn't relevant at all. And I feel like therapy actually encouraged me not to look into that relationship. It was all very internally focused and about fixing what was wrong with me internally. I can't help but get the feeling it actually reinforced the same idea I'd been hearing from my mother - that the problem was that I wasn't seeing things right and if I'd just get my head on straight everything would be fine.

I feel like that's a common refrain with my memories of therapy. Therapy was largely relying on me to identify what was going on and bring it to therapy, at a time when a large part of my problem was that I was unable to identify what was going on. That was where I needed help. And I think 50 minutes of a high intensity session is probably not a good way to get someone like me to be able to identify that. I got told a lot that I "wasn't ready for therapy", but I feel like by the time I hit where I was the worst was over and I didn't really feel like I needed therapy anymore.

[Mith]

One more bit of rambling on therapy:

I don't think I ever brought up stuff about my mother in therapy. Because at the time I hadn't really realized that was an issue. I was still in the mindset that we had a normal relationship and if I got what was wrong with me fixed then it would be ok. I didn't bring it up because as far as I was concerned, it wasn't relevant at all. And I feel like therapy actually encouraged me not to look into that relationship. It was all very internally focused and about fixing what was wrong with me internally. I can't help but get the feeling it actually reinforced the same idea I'd been hearing from my mother - that the problem was that I wasn't seeing things right and if I'd just get my head on straight everything would be fine.

I feel like that's a common refrain with my memories of therapy. Therapy was largely relying on me to identify what was going on and bring it to therapy, at a time when a large part of my problem was that I was unable to identify what was going on. That was where I needed help. And I think 50 minutes of a high intensity session is probably not a good way to get someone like me to be able to identify that. I got told a lot that I "wasn't ready for therapy", but I feel like by the time I hit where I was the worst was over and I didn't really feel like I needed therapy anymore.

As someone who is in no way qualified to do therapy, that sounds like your therapist(s) had an idea of what the problem you had going in. While a lot of mental issues can be entirely internal, a lot of them are external factors that are internalised. I am surprised they didn't start by trying to get a picture of what your social net was like in the first few sessions.

[ve4grm]

Disclaimer - WarKitty - the below post may read as critical of you, but that is not how it is meant. In no way am I saying that the therapy not working for you is your fault. The fact it didn't help you is probably due to a number of factors, both with you and the therapist in question, plus the situation in general. I'm just trying to help break down your experience into something that may help someone else as they go through therapy. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

As someone who is in no way qualified to do therapy, that sounds like your therapist(s) had an idea of what the problem you had going in. While a lot of mental issues can be entirely internal, a lot of them are external factors that are internalised. I am surprised they didn't start by trying to get a picture of what your social net was like in the first few sessions.

Probably a bit of this, but also a therapist can only work on issues they are aware of. If WarKitty never brought it up, and (if asked about it) claimed it was a normal relationship, then the therapist may have no reason to explore it further. Yes, a very good therapist might be able to get to the bottom of it, despite denials, but someone who is just an ok therapist (not bad, but alright) might not.

This therapist and WarKitty were likely not a good match for each other. But to me the important lesson for others to take away from it is to not come into the therapy with preconceived notions of what needs (or doesn't need) to be fixed, and what is (or isn't) relevant. Bring forward all of the issues you're having, and let the therapist help you figure out what the source is. Nothing is irrelevant, especially if you're having problems with a particular relationship. Maybe those problems are your own, maybe they stem from the other person, but the therapist needs to be aware of them to help you.

For example, when I was with my psychiatrist for depression/anxiety symptoms, we eventually figured out I have OCD. But we only got there because someone else spurred the thought in me. Up until that point, I had considered my small obsessive "tics" as irrelevant and not harmful. Once I brought those things to him, we realized that my OCD was beneath a lot of my depressive symptoms.