Would You Be My New Best Friends? (Doctor Who redux)

[Devonix]

My fears for the episode were definitely unfounded, I thought they did a great job on it.

I only have two complaints:

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1)I don't think the "small changes" would have worked to prevent the Civil Rights movement. Several other women had been arrested for refusing to move previously and several were arrested after. The boycott was organized around her because she was a prominent, well-respected figure. Stopping her on that day may have just pushed back the date when she actually did it. It may have made the NAACP pick a different person for the focus of the boycott. But it would not, ultimately, have stopped the boycott from happening.

In terms of historical accuracy though, this episode was FAR closer to the actual events than pretty much any Doctor Who episode I've seen previously.

2) What, exactly, was the time gun for? He isn't allowed to use it on anyone, because brain inhibitor. So what precisely was his plan here? The only use it got in the episode was for him to get shot with it, so bringing it is a clear mistake. What was his plan for it?

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He could use the time gun because it doesn't harm you. It just moves you from point A to point B in the timestream. That said they didn't explain why he didn't use it on her. He did try and hit the Doctor with it, he just missed

[Anymage]

My major beefs are minor enough to not need spoilers. Specifically, that the cast is still a little new in their roles so they were still feeling themselves out with such a meaty plot, and that the "how racism still affects modern people" bits still felt a little too afterschool special. The actual handling of the plot was as good as could be expected, though.

My fears for the episode were definitely unfounded, I thought they did a great job on it.

I only have two complaints:

Spoiler

Show

1)I don't think the "small changes" would have worked to prevent the Civil Rights movement. Several other women had been arrested for refusing to move previously and several were arrested after. The boycott was organized around her because she was a prominent, well-respected figure. Stopping her on that day may have just pushed back the date when she actually did it. It may have made the NAACP pick a different person for the focus of the boycott. But it would not, ultimately, have stopped the boycott from happening.

In terms of historical accuracy though, this episode was FAR closer to the actual events than pretty much any Doctor Who episode I've seen previously.

2) What, exactly, was the time gun for? He isn't allowed to use it on anyone, because brain inhibitor. So what precisely was his plan here? The only use it got in the episode was for him to get shot with it, so bringing it is a clear mistake. What was his plan for it?

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#1: In the real world, this was very much planned. Carefully thought out plans would leave a lot less room for our protagonists to intervene, so a little fudging allowed them to work behind the scenes while still leaving the heavy lifting in Rosa's hands. They could have made a bad guy who just wanted to kill her, but that would have gotten uncomfortably close, conceptually, to asking if there was extraterrestrial involvement in the Martin Luther King Jr. assassination, and if plucky time travelers could have intervened there too.

#2: Presumably, sending someone to another time is not the same as killing them.

As for why he didn't just drop Rosa at some other point in time, my honest guess is that they didn't think it wholly through. If I had to justify it in universe, time cops are already an established fact of the setting. Someone laying low and using minimal future tech would have an easy time flying below the radar, while a famous historical event not happening because a major participant happened to be at another point in time would be quickly noticed. This requires either that The Doctor's gear be way better at detecting anomalies than the time agents or the time agents to be not so bright, but those are minor sins given how the series works.

[LeSwordfish]

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Perhaps Time Criminal was a bit thick. It does correlate fairly strongly with being very racist, after all.

[Telonius]

Spoiler: Rosa

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The whole thing about sending the backup driver to Vegas was silly, but hey. And... well, was Sinatra actually in Vegas in 1955-56?

Apparently, yes.

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In financial difficulty following his divorce and career decline, Sinatra was forced to borrow $200,000 from Columbia to pay his back taxes after MCA refused to front the money.[138] Rejected by Hollywood, he turned to Las Vegas and made his debut at the Desert Inn in September 1951,[139] and also began singing at the Riverside Hotel in Reno, Nevada. Sinatra became one of Las Vegas's pioneer residency entertainers,[140] and a prominent figure on the Vegas scene throughout the 1950s and 1960s onwards, a period described by Rojek as the "high-water mark" of Sinatra's "hedonism and self absorption". Rojek notes that the Rat Pack "provided an outlet for gregarious banter and wisecracks", but argues that it was Sinatra's vehicle, possessing an "unassailable command over the other performers".[141] Sinatra would fly to Las Vegas from Los Angeles in Van Heusen's single-engine plane.[142] On October 4, 1953, Sinatra made his first performance at the Sands Hotel and Casino, after an invitation by the manager Jack Entratter,[143] who had previously worked at the Copa in New York.[144] Sinatra typically performed there three times a year, and later acquired a share in the hotel.[145][r]

No idea about his actual whereabouts on that weekend, though I'm sure somebody on the internet has a record of it.

[Jeivar]

Oof. I'm 1/3 through "Rosa", and I don't know if I'll finish. Not because it's bad, I just get so incensed. I'm autistic and my mind operates on logic, and so the utterly pointless, sneering cruelty of real-life racist hillbillies... ugh.

How did this EVER make sense to anyone??

[Devonix]

Oof. I'm 1/3 through "Rosa", and I don't know if I'll finish. Not because it's bad, I just get so incensed. I'm autistic and my mind operates on logic, and so the utterly pointless, sneering cruelty of real-life racist hillbillies... ugh.

How did this EVER make sense to anyone??

It's Bigotry, it's not supposed to make sense.

[Jeivar]

It's Bigotry, it's not supposed to make sense.

I know. But my brain always seeks out logic. And finding none, it goes nuts with rage. Which it then directs at these kinds of cretins.

[Devonix]

I know. But my brain always seeks out logic. And finding none, it goes nuts with rage. Which it then directs at these kinds of cretins.

I do wonder about something. If they're going to be treating things more seriously how this will affect the audience. Yes these are things that people need to know and learn. But it's not always... fun. And NuWho has always tried to be more fun with history than delving into the darker side.

Even an episode with Hitler in it was mostly one full of laughs.

[Jeivar]

I do wonder about something. If they're going to be treating things more seriously how this will affect the audience. Yes these are things that people need to know and learn. But it's not always... fun. And NuWho has always tried to be more fun with history than delving into the darker side.

Yeah. Cartoonish space supervillains is one thing. An honest look at the Spanish Inquisition is another.

I don't watch DW to grind my teeth at human idiocy.

[Devonix]

Yeah. Cartoonish space supervillains is one thing. An honest look at the Spanish Inquisition is another.

I don't watch DW to grind my teeth at human idiocy.

I mean I enjoyed the episode. It was good. Good writing, good acting, higher than usual production values. Just. It wasn't fun. I do want Doctor Who to tackle these things, why have a Time travel show and not. But I hope that every episode isn't like this, and of course I'm not expecting them all to be. I am glad that for their first time travel episode they did let us know hat this stuff will be possible in the series.

[factotum]

I dunno, I thought it had a couple of fun moments to leaven the serious nature of the story. Overall, I liked it. Still don't like the new TARDIS design, though, but I guess that ain't changing anytime soon so I have to lump it.

[Psyren]

Even an episode with Hitler in it was mostly one full of laughs.

Hitler being farcical is nothing new. "Hitler was bad" is an unnecessary message most of the time - either you leave it high-level, in which case the audience goes "duh", or you actually provide some of the nastier details that aren't ingrained in popular culture and your entire work becomes a drag. Hence the tendency of writers to turn to comedy or science-fiction when talking about him.

Less extreme forms of racism, by comparison, can go a bit wider.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Rosa

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They took a critical event and treated it decently. They portrayed the racism in what I understand to be a brutally accurate manner (actually, possibly a bit more reasonable than reality in some cases), and took it seriously. Having Yaz mistaken was an interesting choice that I think worked. Making Graham the reason the middle seats were claimed for the front was kinda hard to watch, given what we know about the guy.

Didn't like that Rosa's defiance was portrayed as organic when it was planned and political, but the reality of it does complicate the Doctor's involvement and I'm sure they wanted this to be as pure as it could be. "Planned and political" could certainly taint a moment even if it was important. That said, they did show that Rosa was an activist before the bus incident, so it could be read either way without having to make a fuss over it.

Oh, and yes. I definitely think Grace would be pleased to hear that Martin Luther King Junior himself had a kind word to say about her passing. Not worth dying for it, perhaps, but still a nice thing to know.

At first I was getting a tiny bit annoyed at how sacredly they were taking it, little too much worship, but then I remembered Vincent Van Gogh and this is actually a little tamed down from that. Had the Doctor pulled Rosa out of time to take her to Obama's first inauguration celebration, it might have been too much.

Spoiler: One thing I would have changed

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The one thing about this I rather didn't like was Greaser, or whatever the villain was called. Were it me, I would have made him a Time Cop. Possibly a disreputed one, like Captain Jack, fresh out of Stormcage and looking to do one thing to make amends. Turns out he's here running security for this event, looking to make sure it all runs according to History, and Doc and Crew are the ones who make a mess in their blundering attempts to stop him.

I mean, I think I get the point of Greaser: The Racist Prick is Eternal and all that, but it goes just a hair too far and loses some power. If there were ever a "The Doctor Sees Evil Where There is None" plot would have worked, this would have been the spot. "This is a moment that means something to more than you lot" would have done the job so much better.

Did Chibnall acquit himself? I guess so. I have a few quibbles, but I do think it shows a little bit of discipline and tact when it needs to and hits like a brick when it should. A little too worshipful at points and a little self indulgent. But if they were going to tackle this, they did it pretty well.

[Telonius]

Spoiler: Rosa

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There's one thing I was extremely happy that the episode didn't do: how it handled Graham. As soon as he mentioned that his wife had said, "I hope you're not like that James Blake," I was inwardly groaning, and bracing myself for Blake being made unavailable and Graham having to take his place (being the "good guy" who's available and capable of driving a bus). I think that's exactly what would have happened if Gatiss and Moffat were still calling the shots. It would have been lazy, easy, and horrible. This was a big, fat landmine that they avoided stepping on.

Anyway, I'm a bit curious now to see if this series is going to be more along the lines of "setting history right when idiots try to alter it." If it is, it's going to make watching Legends of Tomorrow a bit more surreal.

[Darth Ultron]

NuWho has always tried to be more fun with history than delving into the darker side.

It might be a welcome change.

NewWho has been a bit too Red Dwarf/Hitchhicker's Guide/For Kidz. It might be nice to get back to the Old Who roots.

I would not mind other 'dark side' historical episodes...even more if they tell the other side of history.

I don't watch DW to grind my teeth at human idiocy.

Well, human idiocy has been a huge plot point for DW always. Right at the top of most DW plots are:

1.Humans are too violent and try to shoot anything they don't understand
2.Humans experiment and use science in the ''wrong way"
3.Humans are greedy, and greed and money are bad
4.Humans are power hungry, and power is bad
5.Humans don't care about themselves, each other or the environment.

[jwhouk]

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2) What, exactly, was the time gun for? He isn't allowed to use it on anyone, because brain inhibitor. So what precisely was his plan here? The only use it got in the episode was for him to get shot with it, so bringing it is a clear mistake. What was his plan for it?

Well...

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I think it was to send anyone who might be chasing him back to their own time. It technically could be a backup in case the "quick and nasty" time travel band didn't work.

[jwhouk]

I"m not a mod, by the way, but considering the rules of this forum, please watch your replies over this. I have corresponded with a mod about the subject matter of this episode.

[Fyraltari]

I loved the episode.

Thirteen is in dire needs of a good villain, though.

[thorgrim29]

Decent episode. They either hired american actors or found actors who could do a halfway decent southern accent for the episode, which is a first for this show I think. The actual plot of it was kind of nonsense but that wasn't the point, the point was for Ryan and Yaz to interact with that kind of brutal racism and to show it. And it did as fine a job with that as could be expected for the 20 minutes or so actually dedicated to it. Biggest quibble is that Ryan acted kind of like an idiot. I get that he's 19 and that he spent the whole episode alternating between appalled and furious but after 2 episodes where he was shown as smart and quick-thinking the way he acted with Rosa Parks and MLK was odd. Oh and the whole to-do about stopping her stopping the civil rights movement is bull**** as was noted above. IRL she'd have just done it a few days later but eh, needs must when the time limit drives and all that. I'm not in love with the season so far but it's kept my interest, something Capaldi's run failed to do a few times even though he was a pretty perfect fit for the role.

As an aside the ignorance about Rosa Park's sit-in being planned in advanced is something that I find kind of confusing about the public perception of that event. Isn't it more impressive that she did it because she was a leader of a movement and was willing to put herself on the line for it after having fully considered the possible consequences than if she did it spur of the moment?

[factotum]

They either hired american actors or found actors who could do a halfway decent southern accent for the episode, which is a first for this show I think.

Hardly a first. Right back in Chris Ecclestone's series we had "Dalek", where the main American character was portrayed by an American actor--Corey Johnson. We've also had Ryan Carnes, Eric Loren and Andrew Garfield in "Daleks in Manhattan", just off the top of my head--I'm pretty sure most episodes set primarily in America had at least some Americans in the cast.

[Darth Ultron]

Oh and the whole to-do about stopping her stopping the civil rights movement is bull**** as was noted above. IRL she'd have just done it a few days later but eh, needs must when the time limit drives and all that.

Well, the point of the Episode was to have a Rosa Parks Episode, so the Doctor and a time traveling villain are just sort of tagged on...in the background.

And even if the villains plot did work, nothing much would have changed. Someone somewhere would just be the person that said ''no''.

Have the Confederacy win the Civil War is a bad plan, but it's still a hundred times better then ''oh, I'll give that special bus a flat tire!"

As an aside the ignorance

Most people don't know history. Just look at Ryan's answer when he was asked who Rosa Parks was.

Thirteen is in dire needs of a good villain, though.

Perfect time to bring back the Rani

Or...for some real fun, The Valyard....the Evil Doctor from ''somewhere beyond his 13th regeneration"....humm, so like, now...

[jwhouk]

As an aside the ignorance about Rosa Park's sit-in being planned in advanced is something that I find kind of confusing about the public perception of that event. Isn't it more impressive that she did it because she was a leader of a movement and was willing to put herself on the line for it after having fully considered the possible consequences than if she did it spur of the moment?

I think one side* would like to think that the former is true, as it fuels "conspiracy theories" about the event itself. The other side would like to believe the latter, as it makes the event even more impressive.


* - Trying not to be political here, but I think this side would be the one that Krasko (or whatever the racist villain's name was) is on.

[LeSwordfish]

The narrative of Rosa Parks as a little old lady sitting down because she was tired, and not an experienced campaigner organising a civil disobedience protest, was used to diminish the role of women in the civil rights campaign. (I grew up in the UK, and only recently heard the latter narrative rather than the former, though I knew of Rosa Parks from quite a young age. She'd definitely come up as an "inspirational person" in primary school.) It's a shame the episode didn't show the full aspect of this as a planned protest, but it definitely went further in that direction than any other depiction I've seen did.

[Rodin]

The narrative of Rosa Parks as a little old lady sitting down because she was tired, and not an experienced campaigner organising a civil disobedience protest, was used to diminish the role of women in the civil rights campaign. (I grew up in the UK, and only recently heard the latter narrative rather than the former, though I knew of Rosa Parks from quite a young age. She'd definitely come up as an "inspirational person" in primary school.) It's a shame the episode didn't show the full aspect of this as a planned protest, but it definitely went further in that direction than any other depiction I've seen did.

It's rather interesting because having grown up with the "little old lady has finally had enough and takes a stand" narrative the idea that it was an organized protest is the more diminishing one. It's truly inspiring to think of the ordinary person standing up and suddenly making a difference - someone who is already an experienced political activist is much further removed from that ideal. That's likely why the Doctor Who episode went in that direction as well - not only does it make the episode easier to write, it's more broadly inspirational to a modern audience.

[SuperPanda]

I feel like the latest episode of Doctor Who managed to have it both ways in this episode.

Spoiler: Rosa Plot stuff

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We see Rosa meeting with other Civil Rights leaders making it clear that shes part of an organized movement. We See Rosa standing up to the racist guy at the open showing that she has some degree of respect even from the racists around her (because she was able to diffuse the situation instead of the racist guy getting even more angry). And they have Gahram (sp?) specifically tell the jerk driver that there was going to be an organized sit-in.

On the other hand, they go through all the elements of the old lady who'd had enough narrative. I liked that they walked the line between the two.

This did feel like one of the better episodes of Quantum Leap to me, but that is a great thing. It feels like they might be trying to lean back a little bit to the original pitch of the show - using future episodes to frame scientific ideas and using historical episodes to frame important events both in an entertaining and educational way. The new show-runner has taken a very different approach than Moffat's and so far I'm finding it refreshing. I loved alot of the camp in the RTDavies era - likely because that was my entry into the franchise. I liked much of what Moffat did but his run rarely had the same magic for me that the older one did.

I think what it was for me was that the RTD era was so unabashedly childish (in a good way) that it was fun. The "serious" bits rarely felt more serious than your average comic book story. The Doctor was really just a superhero who got by on being plucky.

So far the Chinball era seems to be aimed at a more grown-up story telling. There are still quirky elements to the stories but the plots themselves have so far tended to be weightier and more nuanced. Yes the flying bandage monsters were downright silly but the race plot was dark and grounded. Most of the silly or out-there elements of the story have been sci-fi seasoning sprinkled on top.

The moffat era struck an odd balance between these two which never really sat comfortably within my suspension of disbelief. I liked a lot of it but it just felt really uneven. The general tone of RTD's run was pretty consistent with some episodes being heavier and some being lighter, but all more or less feeling cohesive. Moffat's run didn't have that as much.

It is too early to tell with Chinball but so far all three episodes have felt very much cohesive with one another. I really like the new "tradition" of opening on the non-doctor characters and then bringing the doctor in after we've established the mood for the episode.

I agree that the Doctor needs better villians though.

Spoiler: My prediciton from Rosa that was not accurate - but I kinda wished that it was.

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So with time-baddie Crisco (or whatever) I had a prediction the first time I saw him which I'd sort of hoped was going to play out. I thought He was going to be another rogue time agent, like Jack, but this time was kidnapping historical figures to "sell" to museum collectors. As such, the reason he hasn't done anything to Rosa Parks yet was because she wouldn't be valuable until she sat in protest - and then he could sell her.

I was disappointed by the villain after I realized they weren't going that route. The limiter on him, preventing him from just outright killing her, made an interesting dynamic and I liked that. I do want to see some consequences from Ryan blasting him into the past though - because that was either straight up murder since Crisco can't hurt other living things, or he just put Crisco in a position to do even more damage because "small things can change history."

[The New Bruceski]

What gets taught about Rosa Parks in school is one of those cases where trying to whittle a person and movement down to a single event loses a lot in the process. The part at the start of the episode with the dropped purse and "accidental" protest of sitting on a whites-only seat to pick it up actually happened, and Parks was a solid supporter and worker in the civil rights movement, but she wasn't a spotlight personality. Whether she got on that bus on purpose or accidentally (the driver was one of the most notorious racists in town) depends who's telling the story, her actions in the moment were deliberate, but it took thought on her part after the fact before agreeing to let King and others make it the big publicity case to get a force behind. It was neither a random woman taking a stand (figuratively speaking) nor some big orchestrated confrontation.

[Darth Ultron]

It was neither a random woman taking a stand (figuratively speaking) nor some big orchestrated confrontation.

History is always somewhere in the middle.

Spoiler: Episode Things

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It does seem like Ryan did murder the bad guy. Guess it was all ok as he was a ''really'' bad guy right? So the Doctor says don't use guns and don't kill....well, except when she says it's ok? But it might be fun twist for him to do something more back in time.

I agree that the Doctor needs better villians though.

How about The Rani? The Valyard? Oh...maybe the Timeless Child!

[Androgeus]

History is always somewhere in the middle.

Spoiler: Episode Things

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It does seem like Ryan did murder the bad guy. Guess it was all ok as he was a ''really'' bad guy right? So the Doctor says don't use guns and don't kill....well, except when she says it's ok? But it might be fun twist for him to do something more back in time.

There’s nothing stopping the Doctor going back and picking him up.

How about The Rani? The Valyard? Oh...maybe the Timeless Child!

Female Master and mystery background discount Master? I’m fine thanks.

[Darth Ultron]

There’s nothing stopping the Doctor going back and picking him up.

Guess it could still happen...

Female Master and mystery background discount Master? I’m fine thanks.

Well, they did Female Master (so maybe make Rani a guy...nahhh)

The Background Discount Master that IS the Doctor turned Evil, AHEM, somewhere after the Doctor's 13th time regenerating!

And just in case your not keeping count...that is ''now'' more or less in Who time.

[SuperPanda]

I'm not up on my classic who - but I thought the Valeyard was suppose to be the result of the Doctor's 12th regeneration going wrong and spitting off a half-formed dark clone of the Doctor who named themselves the Valeyard. We were all expecting it to happen durring 12, or maybe 13 but then the timeline got all mixed up and Matt Smith got reconnected into actually being 13 so that they could have drama over his being the "final" incarnation which was saved by the timelords through a crack in the wall.

after 8 it goes War (9), Eccleston (actually 10), Tennant (actually 11), Tennant again (The half clone and Donna counted apparently so 12), Smith (13) then Capaldi (new set 1), and now the current doctor is actually the second of a new set of regeneration.

If I'm right - that means that the "human" close of Tennant is suppose to be the Valeyard (or part of the Valeyard) which means that they could theoretically bring Tennat back in that role. I wouldn't mind that. If I'm wrong then the Dreamlord from Smith's run was an incarnation of the Doctor and I'm fine with that being the end of it.

Ultimately though I feel like the 3 episodes so far have treated the doctor more as an incidental part of the events everyone is caught up in - and that sort of works for me after all of the episodes we've had with the Doctor being the center of the universe. I'd like to see a solid antaognist akin to the first nuWho appearance of the Daleks or weeping Angels, or the creature from Midnight. If they keep going for more atmospheric episodes though I think I'd be happy with a season of that.


As for the Rani - that seemed to work better with Rani and the Doctor being frenemies - so Missy and Capaldi's dynamic. I want some time before we see the Master again, and I was a proper behind the curtain manipulator type for him when he comes back (male or female).

I don't yet know this new incarnation of the doctor well enough to know what sort of antagonist I want her to face off against. I'd want them to be a proper foil for her and to have that I need to know her more.