Talk to Ashiel About Anything Mark II

[137beth]

They also announced a paid alpha for the Pathfinder 2 Beginner Box. Oh, uh, I mean they're calling it the Starfinder Beginner Box.

[TheGrimPeddler]

Wouldn't it be funny if a 3rd party takes Pathfinder, applies common sense tweaks and house rules we all use anyways, and releases it in protest to PF2E?

I want that... Not only because I hate what I read of 2E so far (doesn't even FEEL like Pathfinder anymore), but because I just wanna see it come full circle.

If not.. Well, I better hurry on my game then so I can capture the people jumping ship

[Lemmy]

Wouldn't it be funny if a 3rd party takes Pathfinder, applies common sense tweaks and house rules we all use anyways, and releases it in protest to PF2E?

I want that... Not only because I hate what I read of 2E so far (doesn't even FEEL like Pathfinder anymore), but because I just wanna see it come full circle.

If not.. Well, I better hurry on my game then so I can capture the people jumping ship

I'm divided on PF2e so far... There are some really cool ideas and some terribles ones... Which would be perfectly ok for a playtest... If Paizo playtests were actual playtests, rather than the cheap publicity stunts they became in the last 3 years or so, where barely any feedback is taken into account.

Personally, I'd prefer they had been way more conservative with the changes... In many aspects, it feels like they are reinventing the wheel without necessity just for the sake of being different... It's like they're throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks.

[Zilrax]

I'm with Lemmy on this. I haven't hated it so far per say. Course I'm gming. That said, I HATE the layout of this book. Finding anything is an enormous pain in the ass. Why is alchemy under treasure and not gear? Why is item quality explained in weapons for weapons but not in armor and made me go find the quality section. It is a HUGE pain.

I did make the pathfinder 3rd party joke though. I'd hope it was DSP. But in any case.

3 attacks on everyone is pretty deadly for minions. level0 goblins are surprisingly damaging even with 0 str bonus.

[137beth]

Ashiel has returned to the forums and is apparently posting again!

[Zilrax]

Yay!

Glad to hear it.

[TheGrimPeddler]

Awesome. I was actually kinda worried about Ash.

[Lemmy]

You know... The more I learn about PF 2.0, the more I realize Paizo is actually pretty bad at game design when they can't just coast on the work of others.

Seriously, for every good idea in PF 2.0, there are at least half a dozen that suck donkey balls. It feels like a mix of the worst parts of PF1 and D&D 5e, with a few good touches here and there to disguise the overall suckiness.

And the game is obviously made with greater emphasis on being easy to design than on being fun to play.

I can't help but predict PF 2.0 being about as critically acclaimed as D&D 4.0 (but without even half as much financial success).

[Zilrax]

That's kind of my feeling too. Though I think the good ideas might be divorced enough from it that they can still be used by others. Hm.

[TheGrimPeddler]

I haven't paid much attention to PF2.0. I had a feeling it was going to be bad from the previews so I washed my hands of it. Sounds like it's actually worse than I thought it'd be.

[Rynjin]

That's kind of my feeling too. Though I think the good ideas might be divorced enough from it that they can still be used by others. Hm.

Thing is, the good ideas HAVE already been divorced from it and used by others. Their action system is not significantly different from a Savage Worlds or Mutants and Masterminds 3e style system (which have the same EFFECT of allowing mobile combat and etc. even if achieved somewhat differently), and the Proficiency system is much cleaner and simpler in 5e than their take on skills. "Everything is a Feat" is basically how PF 1 works anyway. And those are really the only salvageable ideas the game has.

[TheGrimPeddler]

So I was looking a bit more into it... Seems that they continued their design trend. Over-engineering a brand new subsystem to deal with a one-off problem. Let's face it, Resonance is nothing more than an attempt to fix the "problem" of the CLW Wand. People can claim it's to deal with the "big six" issue, but it's not. The way to fix the big 6 is to fix the rocket tag game math, or give them as inherent bonuses (should still fix the math). Making ALL consumables cost resonance is just plain ****ing stupid no matter how you look at it. Oh, what's that? You've blown through your meager resonance on some much required scrolls? You went down and the fighter's pouring a pot down your throat? TOO DAMN BAD!.

Honestly the resonance system is intriguing to me. There are good design possibilities there, if you play around with it. Tacking it on to consumable items, however, is a shade too far.

[Lemmy]

It's pretty telling that nearly all good points of PF 2.0 are better done by different systems (lower power level, proficiencies, 3 action system, spell scaling, etc) while the more original ones range from mediocre to complete garbage (resonance, exploration mode, the d2 treadmill, EVERYTHING costs an action, etc) and the returning mechanics are basically just existing problems made worse, sometimes MUCH worse (feats suck, too many things are class-specific, healers are all but obligatory, skill suck unless you hyper-specialize, etc).

And that's before we mention how neutered every character and game mechanic is. They basically Crane Winged the whole system!

[Zilrax]

They've overhauled several things so we'll see where this lands in the end, though history says not very far from where it is now.

In fact now they've fired off a new version. Still feels kind of... Unnecessary but eh. Still liking Starfinder more than pathfinder 2.0. Though starfinder suffers a bit from boring low levels, but DSP is spending time and money on making a Psionics book for Starfinder so that's promising.

[Ashiel]

Ashiel has returned to the forums and is apparently posting again!

Rumors of my demise have been exaggerated.

It's good to see everyone has amused themselves by talking about how bad PF2E is. You shall be receiving your allotment of divine spells shortly.

Awesome. I was actually kinda worried about Ash.

There were a few days I was worried too. Things are getting better though, and I'm slowly getting back into gaming things.

[Lemmy]

Hey, Ash! Glad to see you're back! I hope everything is okay with you and that you'll post more often from now on!

Cheers!

[Zilrax]

Yeah I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I've been playing some Starfinder as of yet. Haven't had any chance to give your fighter thing a proper test yet sadly. Busy running things most the time.

[Ashiel]

Hey, Ash! Glad to see you're back! I hope everything is okay with you and that you'll post more often from now on!

Cheers!

Yeah, me too. I'm going to try to be more active for sure. Went through kind of an emotional roller coaster for a while, and I didn't really play D&D/Pathfinder very much (and the political nonsense seeping into both of those things only salted some wounds), so I sort of lost interest for a while (I never thought I could lose interest in D&D, as it was a big part of who I was for 18 years). Fortunately, wounds heal and we get back up, gather our party, and venture forth once more.

Yeah I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

I've been playing some Starfinder as of yet.

I think PF2E is a load of hot garbage, personally. Nothing I've seen from it interests me in the slightest (having much the opposite effect truth be told). It's basically been the poster child of "bad" memes I've seen for RPG related stuff. Some of my friends who still hang out on the Paizo forums have sent me things like this thread by Collete Brunel which is painful to read at times, but not because of the poster (the OP is very well spoken IMHO).

Haven't had any chance to give your fighter thing a proper test yet sadly. Busy running things most the time.

A fair warning is that it's ultimately still a fighter. You'll still have to rely on things like potions of protection from evil to not worry about becoming a succubus' minion, they don't fly or teleport, create extra-dimensional spaces, or anything like that. Yet if it's a fighter you want to play, it will be the fighter you always wanted.

Their saves are "good". Not the best (Paladins have better saves and immunities, Rangers have slightly worse saves but inhouse access to things like freedom of movement, delay poison, and resist energy, Barbarians have Superstition) but it's just generally good numbers.

They have a decent number of skill points so you're more or less assured at least 4 skill points per level (assuming a 7 Int), which seems reasonable for the Mr. Mundane guy, so you can have some things to play with both inside and out of combat. They're no bard but they aren't the "twiddle your fingers when not making attack rolls" class anymore.

Finally, it's a quadratic fighter. A fighter that actually becomes more fighter as you gain levels. At levels 1-3, it's very similar in terms of what you get from the vanilla Fighter (a couple bonus feats). But every 4 levels, you just start getting expanding piles of feats, from lots of different places. At 4th level, you'll feel a bit like Magikarp just evolved, and that feeling will keep springing up every four levels or so. There's a rather large assortment of neat feats found on the ranger combat styles list that are very nice (a few favorites of mine include the Menacing, Underhanded, and Weapon and Shield).

This is doubly true if you're also using the Elephant in the Room feat revisions pdf.

[Zilrax]

I've never heard of this elephant in the room thing.

Yeah a lot of the mistakes Starfinder made seem to have carried over into pf2e, mostly the way overtuned monsters/npcs. Though the crit rules aren't the same so that bullet was dodged. And the ability to play a hydra person mollifies me greatly. Sooo happppy.

Just wish shotguns weren't 95% one attack per turn weapons with lower damage per shot than a single target multi attack weapon. Upside, great for clearing lots of weak enemies, kinda bad vs bosses. the debuffs are nicebut only apply vs single targets most the time. And even the damage boosts only apply within 10feet of you and cones usually go out 30 so bleeeh.

There's a good idea buried under a lot of lame and I look forward to seeing if DSP can salvage it when their psionic starfinder book drops.

So how goes the project work?

[Ashiel]

I've never heard of this elephant in the room thing.

Yeah a lot of the mistakes Starfinder made seem to have carried over into pf2e, mostly the way overtuned monsters/npcs. Though the crit rules aren't the same so that bullet was dodged. And the ability to play a hydra person mollifies me greatly. Sooo happppy.

Just wish shotguns weren't 95% one attack per turn weapons with lower damage per shot than a single target multi attack weapon. Upside, great for clearing lots of weak enemies, kinda bad vs bosses. the debuffs are nicebut only apply vs single targets most the time. And even the damage boosts only apply within 10feet of you and cones usually go out 30 so bleeeh.

There's a good idea buried under a lot of lame and I look forward to seeing if DSP can salvage it when their psionic starfinder book drops.

So how goes the project work?

Honestly I put all of my d20 legends project on hold, 'cause I didn't have the right mind and will to work on it. It was always a labor of love, to be the RPG system to run my games with. I lost some of my closest friends. Some I regularly played with for over a decade. I didn't really have the will to go find a new group for a while, so I lost my interest in working on it. I'm standing back up now though, so I intend to return to building it.

[Zilrax]

That sucks. Sorry to hear that, but I get it. I know how that can be.

Well if it helps, I still get some people asking me who I told about it how it's going, so there's certainly an interest still for it for sure. I certainly am still in any case, so it's good to hear you've not given up on it. Been using your vampire template fair bit of late too.

[Ashiel]

That sucks. Sorry to hear that, but I get it. I know how that can be.

Well if it helps, I still get some people asking me who I told about it how it's going, so there's certainly an interest still for it for sure. I certainly am still in any case, so it's good to hear you've not given up on it. Been using your vampire template fair bit of late too.

I hope you've been enjoying it. Not long ago I started throwing together an Ustalav based campaign that provided a new set of campaign specific options for vampires, dhampir, werewolves, mutants, and succubi. The players kept requesting a lot of things, and they didn't want to take level adjustments and such, so I wrote some racial progression feats for the campaign.

The campaign document was never properly fininished 'cause the campaign was short lived (too much drama w/ the group I'm sad to say). Pitched the campaign, everyone said they were down to play, promptly made characters that were antithetical to the theme of the campaign, and sort of pissed and moaned a lot. Eventually just scrapped the campaign and started running them a sandbox instead.

Ashiel's Dusk Crusade

EDIT: While I posted this so you could see the monster feats, I figured I might as well explain some of the history of the campaign. The gist of it is that the campaign centers around returning Ustalav to its former glory. The campaign is based on my personal interpretation of Golarion lore surrounding Ustalav, Tar Baphon/The Whispering Tyrant, the Shining Crusade, Taldor, the Dwarfs and Orcs of Belkzen, the Runelord of Gluttony, Pharasma, Groetus, Urgathoa, and some other stuff. It's a bit complex but the long and short of it is that the campaign was lined up for the following goals.

1. Stage a coup to place a new king on the throne of Ustalav.
2. Reclaim the lands of Ustalav from Lastwall, and reveal a conspiracy within the church that they were willing to kill to hide.
3. Rescue Tar Baphon from Gallowspire and the Whispering Tyrant (I said that correctly).
4. Aid a "heretical" priestess of Pharasma in bonding with some old gods (in the Lovecraftian sense).
5. Proceed to aid Pharasma and Urgathoa in their co-conspiracy to defeat Groetus.

[Zilrax]

Sounds awesome. I always enjoyed the idea of Ustalav, Carrion Crown was one of my favorite ones to run. And Strange Aeons wasn't so bad, especially after I decided to start mucking around with it. (I made a rather mean encounter in book 5 by changing the class of the sorta final boss from cleric to Zealot from path of War.) I'd say it's biggest downfall is the GOO that's supposed to be the big monster is.... Basically a beat stick and went down like a brick. I got more memorable mileage out of screwing with the pcs in other ways.

Spoiler: Strange Aeons Book 5 and 6 Spoilers, and possibly others.

Show

A running villain through out the books is Weiralei, a Denizen of Leng. Denizens cannot be killed on the material plane, they just get banished back to Leng so she can fight them over and over.

Of course I figure dying over and over is not great for anyones sanity and the book agrees, since by the time book 5 rolls around, in her desperation to win she's tied herself fully to Hastur in order to beat the pcs and taken a bunch of cleric levels. Of course she's supposed to just stalk the pcs when they go down below and attack them along with a large sized zombie and well that's just asking to be curb stomped.

So. I decided to instead have her wait outside for the pcs to come up. And for her to snag two things in the area. A pair of Juggernauts to the GOO, or for those less versed, Divine Empowered Animated Steamrollers. And then I switched her class to Zealot. And had her ride one. Zealots can give allies move actions. The Juggernauts can't use it to charge but it means on Weiralei's turn they could reposition to charge again properly. So this big battle field was jsut the animated steam rollers driving back and forth over the pcs. They won out in the end as most the party faced Weiralei and the cleric managed to Magic Jar ne of the juggernauts and started a battle of bumper cars with the other juggernaut.

Other changes I did was give Pallid Mask a few different feats for the luls and the mindfog aura one of his near identical lesser servitors has. I also played him up a lot, making the pcs attacks seeming to have no effect and him just toying with them every time, because "they are lies." He is the shadow cast by truth after all. But when they stop him from undoing the time loop thus sustaining their existence I had all the damage they did to him suddenly come back and tear him apart because now the attacks truly had happened.

Course I brought him back for the final boss fight in a wrecked state and enraged. It proved necessary because the GOO is such a scrub they had to give him a helper themselves, and even that wouldn't have lasted if I didn't include him. And these guys are far from optimal players.

I've been using a lot of Rite Publishings In the Company of series for monster chars a lot. They're hit and miss most part. I'd say the best ones are the Dragon, Abberation and Medusa ones. Vampire ones basically World of Darkness' clans which is eh whatever but the class is a bit on the weak side. The wight ones alright. Celestials messy. Fiends better. Rakshasa is eh. And I've not paid much heed to unicorn and treant.

In the current game that succubi thing mighta come in handy. Have this modified deck of many things and a pc ended up race switched into a lesser succubus sorta deal. This mighta been more elegant and less complicated in the long run. Well, have it now haha.

[Ashiel]

Sounds awesome. I always enjoyed the idea of Ustalav, Carrion Crown was one of my favorite ones to run. And Strange Aeons wasn't so bad, especially after I decided to start mucking around with it. (I made a rather mean encounter in book 5 by changing the class of the sorta final boss from cleric to Zealot from path of War.) I'd say it's biggest downfall is the GOO that's supposed to be the big monster is.... Basically a beat stick and went down like a brick. I got more memorable mileage out of screwing with the pcs in other ways.

I'm not surprised. I tend to do a lot of revisions when I'm handling an adventure path and add a lot of extra content that wasn't in the original, or modify based on my players'. Sometimes that means fixing statblocks or encounters, other times it might mean altering how an encounter might play out, sometimes it means scrapping something entirely and starting over, and sometimes it means adding new side quests and subplots.

In the current game that succubi thing mighta come in handy. Have this modified deck of many things and a pc ended up race switched into a lesser succubus sorta deal. This mighta been more elegant and less complicated in the long run. Well, have it now haha.

If those help at all, I'll be thrilled. Didn't get much mileage out of them 'cause the Ustalav campaign was short lived. All of them actively encourage those with the feats to act like monsters though. Which is intended, since instead of forcing players to play on theme it rather gently encourages players to give into their monstrous nature and be rewarded for it (admittedly, it's tempting the murderhobo since doing things like draining the life out of villagers is potentially beneficial to the character).

Most of the time I don't really even bother with APs and just build my own APs around my players. I give them a general premise and try to gather information about things like their characters' friends, family, motivations, etc. I build NPCs around that, as well as plot arcs and the like, with a mix of extra stuff I sprinkle in for funsies (like the pharasmin heretic). That's how the Ustalav campaign was unfolding (but sadly, several members of the group either kept in-fighting between themselves over stupid things or spent all their time bitching and moaning about anything they could think of , so the game was cancelled).

I'm a bit disappointed that I didn't get to carry on with that game, since I was having a lot of fun patching holes in the lore. Pharasma was one of my favorite deities in that campaign, which is the polar opposite of my views on Pharasma in regular Golarion material (she's my least favorite deity without the patchwork).

[Zilrax]

Hah I'd play it.

I've one built one though it's more free form in design which has it's own issues. I'm pretty sure I can't go into the full details here due to the uh... Mature nature of it, but the basic principal is the party can't actually die. So I can use those random encounter tables that might dump something ridiculous on them without worry and stick super monsters in various spots for them to fight and figure out how to beat.

Course despite going into this knowing that there is a good chance they may get in over their heads at times I hear complaints like... All the time. Even when the party wins like most the fights they face. Drives me up the wall a bit. Doesn't help that they look up the stat blocks a lot and work themselves into a panic half the time.

My other issue though is one still figuring out is one of the principles is there's a super monster they need to face. they can face it anytime, but they'd be screwed right now. So the idea is they need to head out scavenge materials and gear and such to get stronger buuut I get the sense they're not the proactive types most part so this may require me to do something. I just am not certain what. My current patchwork solution was to point them to a hidden tomb by the local church since they're feuding with the undead there. Course the pcs ended up making friends with them and the undead leader set up an arena to test her minions against the pcs if they want to, winner take all.

Also attempting to involve them in world make most part was... Not the most fruitful but ehhh, see where it goes later.

[Ashiel]

Hah I'd play it.

I've one built one though it's more free form in design which has it's own issues. I'm pretty sure I can't go into the full details here due to the uh... Mature nature of it, but the basic principal is the party can't actually die. So I can use those random encounter tables that might dump something ridiculous on them without worry and stick super monsters in various spots for them to fight and figure out how to beat.

Thats pretty amusing. I've had parties or at least PCs that wouldn't be killable in many normal encounters, particularly when dealing with undead (things like vampires or lichlings that have to be killed in a certain way or else they come back). I recently was running a thing where a 1st level vampire broke open an old iron door and found an ochre jelly behind it, and rather than retreating they fought with it directly, split it once with their axe, and was promptly grappled and devoured by the jelly.

She reformed nearby later groaning about it definitely being a Monday.

Course despite going into this knowing that there is a good chance they may get in over their heads at times I hear complaints like... All the time. Even when the party wins like most the fights they face. Drives me up the wall a bit. Doesn't help that they look up the stat blocks a lot and work themselves into a panic half the time.

I can relate. Last major game I ran, I had a tabletop buddy playing alongside an online group. Now my tabletop buddy is a veteran of my games. He's seen some ****. He was playing the least optimized character in the party (he actually kept forgetting to spend his gold even because he mostly updated his sheet when he was around) and was so disappointed in the other players. Half of them were playing overtuned 3P stuff (giving everyone +3 to hit and damage, healing people from nothing to full HP, all sorts of things), and yet he was the only one not bitching and moaning every encounter.

They were going through a kobold tunnel, then a kobold temple, and a hive of ankhegs. They constantly complained that the traps were too dangerous because if the party member with the lowest HP was walking in front they could be 1-shot by some of the traps, and that they didn't spread out when they got into big fights because they were afraid there might be traps nearby and step on them, which allowed the kobolds to pepper them with AoEs and splash damage.

And I'm sitting here like, "...Yeah?" , and so's my tabletop buddy (again, least mechanically powerful, has most testicular fortitude ).

My other issue though is one still figuring out is one of the principles is there's a super monster they need to face. they can face it anytime, but they'd be screwed right now. So the idea is they need to head out scavenge materials and gear and such to get stronger buuut I get the sense they're not the proactive types most part so this may require me to do something. I just am not certain what. My current patchwork solution was to point them to a hidden tomb by the local church since they're feuding with the undead there. Course the pcs ended up making friends with them and the undead leader set up an arena to test her minions against the pcs if they want to, winner take all.

Also attempting to involve them in world make most part was... Not the most fruitful but ehhh, see where it goes later.

Maybe introduce a few NPCs who talk about their histories (and ad lib some stuff occasionally, like "Remember when we met in the academy? I looked up to you, so..." since that's ephemeral enough that it could be remembered, forgotten, a mistake, or a lie), since that often seems to get players a bit more invested.

[Zilrax]

Yeah I'm just waiting for them to locate the Slime Empress superboss for my amusement. Much squish.

Why would you put the lowest hp person in the front though? Unless it was a paladin I guess. Eesh. Seems like a weird complaint to me.

I'll see what I can do, the only pc who actually helped with this stuff is also the only one sorta tied to this spot in particular. I'll probably need to draw others in somehow. Hm. Just need to figure out how to hook it as of yet. Though yeah it's more they've a big place but just being strong enough to face the big curse source isn't enough reason to go explore it I guess.

Hmm. Maybe see if they invade the old wizard tower the harpies and kobolds have holed up in or not. They sent the familiars to scout it cus the party has three of em.

[Ashiel]

Why would you put the lowest hp person in the front though? Unless it was a paladin I guess. Eesh. Seems like a weird complaint to me.

Exactly! And it was like that, constantly. Over everything. And anything. They were literally steam rolling through lots of stuff while simultaneously complaining about how overly difficult and unfair it was. They complained about plot. They complained about encounters. They complained about how much treasure they got. There was literally nothing that they didn't complain about.

[Lemmy]

Players can be get whiny (I gotta admit I do it on occasion. Sorry, Rynjin)... It becomes a real problem when they start doing so constantly.

It's sad to see a good group go down the drain like that, but don't let it put you down, Ash. You're always welcome to get on Roll20 and Discord to play with us... In fact, I'm pretty sure you owe me a campaign since 2 or 3 years ago!

And sometimes, just taking a breather is a good idea... I know I was completely burned out on RPGs in general until I finally, FINALLY, had a chance to actually play in a game instead of GMing... And it was a 5e game. I lost contact with most of that group, but I'm still very grateful to the GM and his friends for completely reinvigorating my enthusiasm for tabletop RPGs.

---

On an unrelated note, how is your non-RPG life going, Ash? You gotta become easier to contact, man... When you disappear after going surgical procedures, we get worried! Create a Discord account or something!

[Zilrax]

Yeah sounds lame to me. But it happens sometimes. I mean I'm more used to player's complaining behind the dm's back and you never finding out about it til it boils over so I guess it's a good change? Eh.

So party has gone in the tower. After the familiars were scouting all over they spotted a few of the ambushers and trouble coming they'd face. A wizard on the lab floor, a fancy harpy on the bedroom with a soldier kobold who was using a telescope to study the party in turn. And a kobold quartet setting up some barrels by the stair well. They then had a pc break the window on the barrel floor and the wizard tossed sleep up there. Good idea in theory but only one failed so they jsut woke him back up and got back up from a harpy. Then the pcs made the two classic mistakes.

The first was they never checked if the door was locked before trying to kick the door in then using a scroll of knock on it. The second was not checking for traps. So the door opens and that opens the cage carrying the cockatrice. they get some good rolls and smack it down though. Next room they trigger another trap and get smacked with a swinging heavy flour bag trap.

Next they went up the stairs in a hurry after the kobolds, hoping to CDG them before they woke up, turn the corner and come against the kobolds and harpies. Fortunatly they all rolled initiatives really well and stopped the kobolds from sending the lamp oil barrels down at them. though they accidentally ignited them in the process. which kinda turned out good cus most the pcs failed the save vs Captivating song and the fire, even if it was a little fire that they had to cross to reach the harpy gave another save.

Next floor, the wizard. He's sitting at the desk, not noticing so they gang up and ambush him. Of course, it's a minor image, so the melee guys get in line of sight of the wizard who's hiding out of sight of the stairs and dumps web on them, and that's where we left it.