Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Lacuna Caster]

Which one would expect to take longer than even the maximum regeneration time.

Why would you expect that? With teleport and wind-walk, you can cover vast distances in very little time. Sure, there are risks involved, but there are also immense risks involved in having no idea what your enemy is doing.

That's because, from her perspective, their guilt has already been proven by diviners, the punishment is mandatory, and so, the trial is an unnecessary formality (but, since Shojo has insisted, she will make an effort to ensure they actually get to Azure City for it).

Hence she says "Their execution has been ordered" when she means "Their trial followed by execution has been ordered".

Right, right. And I'm the one accused of performing mental contortions.

[hamishspence]

are you saying that Miko's comments here are reliable or not?

Mostly reliable. After all, as a paladin, she's forbidden from actually lying, even if she might distort narratives a little to suit her own desires.

From the context of the strip itself, it is pretty blatant that "endangering the fabric of existence" is a death penalty crime in its own right, to the Sapphire Guard.



Indeed, that is what they would have been going after the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle for - seeking to "endanger the fabric of existence" by seizing control of a gate.

[Keltest]

All of this logic applied to liberating Belkar and imprisoning the Linear Guild, Keltest, but Shojo somehow nonetheless finds a way to brush aside all these perfectly reasonable questions whenever it suits the story

So youre suggesting that Shojo should create more work for himself and undertake more risk to get the same results?

What part of this alternative is supposed to be an improvement, again?

[Lacuna Caster]

It means that simply knowing you need a good plan doesn't mean you make a good plan. People can be fallible. Shojo can believe his paranoia that saved him in Azure City will also save him from Xykon...

Shojo is not being paranoid here. He is being enormously trusting when it comes to the reliability of the Order, and enormously confident in Miko's ability to retrieve the Order without serious loss of life, yet intensely suspicious when it comes to sharing information he has no reason to conceal, and bafflingly indifferent to the huge waste of time incurred by not using teleport or sending spells. There's no consistent line of thought here whatsoever.

He cant send the Guard because that would be interference in the defenses of another gate...

For the umpteenth time, Keltest, this is a thing that is not true. The defences of Dorukan's Gate were already knocked down flat, why do you keep ignoring this?

Please tell me where Shojo tries to convince Roy and the Order to go after Xykon by themselves with no backup from the Guard....

Again, if the purpose of their mission was strictly to gather intelligence, Shojo had a way to either furnish or fake that intelligence in the form of either Eugene or the Oracle. (Shojo also, by the way, has no way to share any intelligence that Roy might gather without incriminating himself, unless the Guard believe that Roy coincidentally happened to bump into Xykon by accident outside some nifty pyramid in the desert.)

[hamishspence]

Again, if the purpose of their mission was strictly to gather intelligence, Shojo had a way to either furnish or fake that intelligence in the form of either Eugene or the Oracle.

Eugene can't leave the circle until given a task. And once the "summoning" is ended, the Upper Planes are going to ban Eugene from responding to any summonses for a while.

Shojo made use of Eugene's presence in the circle. Then got rid of him because his presence was making the Oathspirits uncomfortable. By giving him a quick and useless task - repeat a statement he'd just made.

For the umpteenth time, Keltest, this is a thing that is not true. The defences of Dorukan's Gate were already knocked down flat

The last line of defence had still managed to keep Xykon from taking control of it. Once the gate was destroyed, then Shojo scryed.

[Keltest]

For the umpteenth time, Keltest, this is a thing that is not true. The defences of Dorukan's Gate were already knocked down flat, why do you keep ignoring this?

Because you've imagined it. If Xykon is no longer a threat to the other gates, then they have no jurisdiction to go after him. He's on another continent and isn't related to the Guard at all. If he is, then Shojo needs a strong enough argument that he is a menace to convince the paladins to go after him.

[Lacuna Caster]

From the context of the strip itself, it is pretty blatant that "endangering the fabric of existence" is a death penalty crime in its own right, to the Sapphire Guard.

Then Miko should have executed Belkar before he arrived in Azure City. She knows he's evil, and she states that she has discretion to execute evil-aligned suspects in the field, and she knows he's an accomplice to whoever blew up the Gate.

So youre suggesting that Shojo should create more work for himself and undertake more risk to get the same results...

Compared to what, Keltest? Alienating the Order with a violent arrest and dragging them over hundreds of kilometers so you can ply them with state secrets, because that's a super-reliable way to get people under your thumb?

[Peelee]

Shojo is not being paranoid here. He is being enormously trusting when it comes to the reliability of the Order, and enormously confident in Miko's ability to retrieve the Order without serious loss of life, yet intensely suspicious when it comes to sharing information he has no reason to conceal, and bafflingly indifferent to the huge waste of time incurred by not using teleport or sending spells. There's no consistent line of thought here whatsoever.

He doesn't see a time crunch, and sending Miko ensures that they either won't be able to talk, or she will refuse to listen. That's kind of her thing once she becomes a paladin. He gets unrelated patsys who would be inherently unreliable if they tried to cross him, and whose loss if they failed would not cause him any loss of resources.

You say potato, I say paranoid schemer who thinks he's more clever than he really is, but definitely not potato.

[Keltest]

Compared to what, Keltest? Alienating the Order with a violent arrest and dragging them over hundreds of kilometers so you can ply them with state secrets, because that's a super-reliable way to get people under your thumb?

Yes, Blackmail has historically been an exceptionally strong motivator. Shojo is not looking for a working relationship based on friendship and shared alignment.

More to the point, your proposed alternative is relying on the exact same things as what Shojo actually did, only you create more work and have more potential points of failure. That is, by definition, not an improvement.

[hamishspence]

Then Miko should have executed Belkar before he arrived in Azure City. She knows he's evil, and she states that she has discretion to execute evil-aligned suspects in the field, and she knows he's an accomplice to whoever blew up the Gate.

She'd scanned Roy, he pinged as evil - she still gave him a chance to surrender.

I think you're reading a bit too much into: "Your guilt or innocence, in the absence of an Evil alignment, is not for me to determine"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

The orders were to try to bring the Order of the Stick in, regardless of their alignment.

[Lacuna Caster]

Eugene can't leave the circle until given a task. And once the "summoning" is ended, the Upper Planes are going to ban Eugene from responding to any summonses for a while.

Shojo made use of Eugene's presence in the circle. Then got rid of him because his presence was making the Oathspirits uncomfortable. By giving him a quick and useless task - repeat a statement he'd just made.

But by this definition, agreeing to stand in as jury for the trial would also have caused him to disappear immediately after the verdict, which didn't happen. If Shojo managed to find some weasel-wording that prevented this outcome, I imagine he could find a way to coax Eugene to give intel on Xykon/Redcloak that doesn't make him 'poof'. "I request you advise my paladins and I on how best to neutralise Xykon until he is destroyed" seems like a perfectly reasonable phrasing.

The last line of defence had still managed to keep Xykon from taking control of it. Once the gate was destroyed, then Shojo scryed.

Right. And this stops the Guard from trying to track Xykon from this point how? I already listed, like, six different ways they might have turned up leads with a decent effort.

Because you've imagined it. If Xykon is no longer a threat to the other gates, then they have no jurisdiction to go after him. He's on another continent and isn't related to the Guard at all. If he is, then Shojo needs a strong enough argument that he is a menace to convince the paladins to go after him.

It's the other way 'round, Keltest. If they don't know he's threatening another Gate, the oath doesn't stop the paladins from chasing him. If they do know he's threatening another Gate, then by definition they have sufficient evidence to waive the oath. Either way, there is nothing to stop them chasing Xykon.

[Peelee]

If they do know he's threatening another Gate, then by definition they have sufficient evidence to waive the oath.

Yes, an order founded on "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" seem like the exact kind of people to say, "eh, forget the oath." Totally.

[hamishspence]

But by this definition, agreeing to stand in as jury for the trial would also have caused him to disappear immediately after the verdict, which didn't happen.

Because Shojo never actually "gave him that as a task"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

Hence the bonus strip in War & XPs depicting the "giving Eugene a task".

[Lacuna Caster]

I think you're reading a bit too much into: "Your guilt or innocence, in the absence of an Evil alignment, is not for me to determine"...

Whoa whoa whoa. But it's totally legitimate for you read what you like into "you are charged with crimes for which the only possible is sentence is death?" Even when she doesn't specify what crime, and doesn't necessarily speak for the azurite legal system, or clearly implies that Shojo wanted them dead?

He doesn't see a time crunch...

Why on earth would he not see a time crunch? He explicitly says that wants Roy & Co. after Girard's Gate as soon as possible, and lends them teleport services for the precise function of not wasting time! Why does arresting them in the first place, or, you know, directly finding and maybe destroying Xykon, not get the same level of consideration?

[hamishspence]

Whoa whoa whoa. But it's totally legitimate for you read what you like into "you are charged with crimes for which the only possible is sentence is death?"

Because the strip shows that what she was talking about, was the blowing up of the gate.

Even when she doesn't specify what crime, and doesn't necessarily speak for the azurite legal system

They're not being tried on behalf of the azurite legal system, but on behalf of "the gods". As Shojo points out when Roy complains.

The Giant even mentioned this, long before the actual trial:

Interesting how you repeatedly assume that Shojo is a secular leader and that he is acting based on the legal procedures of a mortal nation. Instead of, you know, a direct servant of one or more gods granted a holy mandate that knows no borders. Generally, paladins and clerics can be following a divine law that is, in their eyes, superior to any law written by Man and still be 100% Lawful.

[Lacuna Caster]

Because the strip shows that what she was talking about, was the blowing up of the gate.

Yes, and as the author remarks, this is mostly grandstanding at a time when she believed a giant demon was responsible. It's not a comment on what the penalty for (unintentional) endangering of reality would be.

They're not being tried on behalf of the azurite legal system, but on behalf of "the gods". As Shojo puts out when Roy complains.

And Miko is an infallible guide to what the Gods want?

Yes, an order founded on "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" seem like the exact kind of people to say, "eh, forget the oath." Totally.

If nothing else, Peelee, they might remember their oath of obedience to their Lord, or their oath to defend the innocent- including every innocent alive both in their city and on the planet- or their oath to punish the wicked- such as the 'soulless nihilist who seeks to undo creation' or Dorukan's presumed murderer. So yeah, I'm willing to bank on them remembering their oaths.

Because Shojo never actually "gave him that as a task"...

Right, fine. Then Shojo can just hint and imply or use whatever weasel-word phrasing is required to coax information out of the BoPLaG without dismissing him. Or just make "stick around and help until Xykon's destroyed" his primary task. I already said this, hamish, in the same post.

[Peelee]

Why on earth would he not see a time crunch? He explicitly says that wants Roy & Co. after Girard's Gate as soon as possible, and lends them teleport services for the precise function of not wasting time! Why does arresting them in the first place, or, you know, directly finding and maybe destroying Xykon, not get the same level of consideration?

True. So let's call me wrong on that. New argument: he didn't know exactly where the Order was and needed a tracker, because teleport spells aren't quite useful when you don't know where to go. Badabing, problem solved. Oh, also, let's say the SG was pulled into a more purely defensive or reactive role after that whole unpleasantness of Start of Darkness and Scar. Sure seems like it, I've gotta say. "Arrest these guys who blew a gate" sounds more appropriate to that then "go destroy these guys threatening other gates."

If nothing else, Peelee, they might remember their oath of obedience to their Lord, or their oath to defend the innocent- including every innocent alive both in their city and on the planet- or their oath to punish the wicked- such as the 'soulless nihilist who seeks to undo creation' or Dorukan's presumed murderer. So yeah, I'm willing to bank on them remembering their oaths.

Which is why they totally policed Azure City, doing everything they could to make sure everyone was happy. Or, possibly, they value their big SG oath more than you think they do..

[Kish]

Yes, an order founded on "only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable" seem like the exact kind of people to say, "eh, forget the oath." Totally.

Actually...

An important note, though: While Shojo is portrayed sympathetically in the strip, his final fate is directly a result of his own schemes backfiring. No one held a wand to his head and forced him to deceive the Sapphire Guard; like Miko, he considered himself above the law. Anger on the part of the paladins was a foreseeable consequence of his actions. As Celia said back in her closing argument back at the trial, part of being Lawful Good is knowing when to change the law. Shojo could have come to the paladins when Dorukan's Gate was destroyed and asked them to terminate Soon's Oath to not interfere, but he didn't. He went behind their backs and hired the Order. And he died as a result.

As I've said before, Rich has commented in the past that every developed character who's died in his story has died as a result of their own choices and that this is Storytelling 101. Lacuna's issues with Shojo seem entirely to stem from a belief that the concept of a character, who is largely defined as on the side of the protagonists, and does not take the optimal actions to annihilate the antagonist, is by definition a plot hole, and a character who dies should be one who did everything right but collided with an overwhelming force through no fault of their own. So he points out, time and again, that Shojo is a flawed character--exactly the flawed character he was planned and written to be--and reacts with baffled outrage when no one joins him in calling for Rich Burlew to be recognized as a hack who wrote Shojo wrong.

[hamishspence]

Yes, and as the author remarks, this is mostly grandstanding at a time when she believed a giant demon was responsible.

The grandstanding was in this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html

In #120, she's under the impression that some clearly evil force like a giant demon or something is responsible, so the speech there is mostly grandstanding.

And we know that Shojo told her to bring them back alive immediately after that moment of grandstanding:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html

[Lacuna Caster]

True. So let's call me wrong on that. New argument: he didn't know exactly where the Order was and needed a tracker, because teleport spells aren't quite useful when you don't know where to go...

Tracking is much easier when the trail is fresh, and if Miko had been immediately teleported to outside the ruins of Dorukan's Keep, the trail of the Order would be a lot fresher. But there was nothing to stop Sangwaan from just scrying on the Order directly and relaying the coordinates to whoever was teleporting, so tracking them was superfluous. It was doubly superfluous if you consider that Sending to the Order might have just gotten them to rendezvous where needed.

Which is why they totally policed Azure City, doing everything they could to make sure everyone was happy...

Which will be very difficult to do if the planet containing Azure City is destroyed. I literally cannot imagine a better reason for them to reconsider the spirit of their oaths.

[hamishspence]

This was presumably with reference to the crimes committed by the Linear Guild (and Belkar. And if we're taking Miko's word as gospel, I would remind you that she repeatedly claims that Shojo ordered their execution.)

For "deeds committed against his interests"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0174.html

not "for a bunch of unrelated deeds".

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually...

The Burlew quote you pull out notably does not say that asking the Paladins to reconsider their oaths would have ended well. It merely says the obvious: that Shojo's chosen course of action ended badly.

[Lacuna Caster]

And we know that Shojo told her to bring them back alive immediately after that moment of grandstanding...

That's my point, hamish. If you're saying that Miko is distorting either the letter or the spirit of Shojo's orders, you cannot then use Miko's commentary to prove anything about secular or divine law in azure city.

As I've said before, Rich has commented in the past that every developed character who's died in his story has died as a result of their own choices and that this is Storytelling 101. Lacuna's issues with Shojo seem entirely to stem from a belief that the concept of a character, who is largely defined as on the side of the protagonists, and does not take the optimal actions...

Kish, this bears no connection with my actual arguments, though I'm glad you've at least stopped trying to gaslight me with statements about no-one ever agreeing with me.

[hamishspence]

If you're saying that Miko is distorting either the letter or the spirit of Shojo's orders, you cannot then use Miko's commentary to prove anything about secular or divine law in azure city.

The point I'm trying to make is, the narrative makes it clear that "endangering the fabric of existence" is a capital crime "in the eyes of the gods" and it's what The Order are being put on trial for.

It isn't just "Miko's opinion". It isn't just Eugene's behaviour. Or V's complaint about "standing trial for a capital crime". It's the combination of everything.

[Kish]

The Burlew quote you pull out notably does not say that asking the Paladins to reconsider their oaths would have ended well. It merely says the obvious: that Shojo's chosen course of action ended badly.

Sure, if you want to be entirely deaf to nuance and play literal meanings of words.

[Lacuna Caster]

The point I'm trying to make is, the narrative makes it clear that "endangering the fabric of existence" is a capital crime "in the eyes of the gods" and it's what The Order are being put on trial for.

It isn't just "Miko's opinion". It isn't just Eugene's behaviour. It's the combination of everything.

Right. And it's the same combination of everything that leaps out to as me as radically inconsistent with Shojo's ostensible goals, personality, and available resources.

To reiterate, my preferred headcanon is that Shojo and Eugene don't meet until much later, and Shojo is simply dispatching Miko after 6 probably-evil nobodies he knows nothing about, and 'mr scruffy says' is just a lie. You'd still have to explain the lack of teleport or backup on the mission, but the rest becomes much more comprehensible.

And in that scenario, sure, endangering the fabric of reality can be a death sentence. But you're the one usually insisting that 'mr scruffy says' is a total reliable indicator that Miko has a deranged bloodlust that distorts her mandate, and, well... I'm sorry, but you cannot eat your cake and have it too.

[hamishspence]

Telling Miko she was "special" and "Chosen" is portrayed as the most important factor in Shojo's death:

Shojo dies because of a lifetime of lies and deceptions, the most important of which was telling a random orphan girl that she was Special and Chosen.

To reiterate, my preferred headcanon is that Shojo and Eugene don't meet until much later, and Shojo is simply dispatching Miko after 6 probably-evil nobodies he knows nothing about, and 'mr scruffy says' is just a lie.

IMO that contradicts what we actually see too much.

[Keltest]

Right. And it's the same combination of everything that leaps out to as me as radically inconsistent with Shojo's ostensible goals, personality, and available resources.

To reiterate, my preferred headcanon is that Shojo and Eugene don't meet until much later, and Shojo is simply dispatching Miko after 6 probably-evil nobodies he knows nothing about, and 'mr scruffy says' is just a lie. You'd still have to explain the lack of teleport or backup on the mission, but the rest becomes much more comprehensible.

And in that scenario, sure, endangering the fabric of reality can be a death sentence. But you're the one usually insisting that 'mr scruffy says' is a total reliable indicator that Miko has a deranged bloodlust that distorts her mandate, and, well... I'm sorry, but you cannot eat your cake and have it too.

Its not headcanon if it directly contradicts established events. Likewise, what you believe his goals and personality to be are explicitly against what is stated in the strip. And I am going to keep coming back to this point until that changes. Shojo does not want what you think he wants, and there is no supporting evidence that he actually wants what you claim.

[Ruck]

Yes. We don't know what the procedure for AC is. So why keep people saying that Shojo could not have sent to Roy?

You quoted me and agreed but then drew the opposite conclusion. What I implied from "We don't know what the procedures are" is "We don't know how Shojo might be restricted in what he can do." You seem to have inferred "We should assume Shojo can do whatever he wants."

[Kish]

IMO that contradicts what we actually see too much.

Indeed. Writing fanfic is one thing, but for discussing the actual comic, it's not valid to "headcanon" away what's explicitly shown--particularly when there's no need, no plot hole to patch, outside of "this character didn't act optimally=plot hole"-land.