OOTS #1164 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was taking "use clerics to proselytize" as "shoving people," actually. Would have been better if I'd added "you get the money in their pockets when you push them/they fall in the grass," but I thought of that too late and when I went to edit you'd already posted.

Again, I'm a bit confused as to how you are reading the bet. The bet concerns what Hel is and is not allowed to do. It never placed any restrictions on what Thor was allowed to do.

By that above, Thor gets to do all the pushing, in the middle of a massive field with a tiny bit of cement in a corner. And anyone that falls in the grass, he gets to hand over the money in their pockets to Hel. And the bet explicitly says that anyone he shoves in the cement he gets to keep the money off.

So he gets to do both his and Hel's job, and Hel is now complaining he aims for the cement? All agency was given to Thor. Nothing in the bet limits Thor's actions, agency, intentions or anything else. Of course he would aim people towards the cement. This is not thumbing the plate, this is the reality of what such a bet would cause.

ETA: Such a bet might make sense if you think that shoving is overrated and that most people fall in the grass regardless of the shoving. In RL scenarios, that is usually caused by a misunderstanding on how forces cancel each other out, causing you to misread how useful an effort is, precisely because it is constantly countered by others.

For example, advertising tends to have pretty much 0 effect as long as all competitors in a market spend roughly the same amount. Coke and Pepsi's efforts seem to change the needle very little. But that doesn't mean Pepsi can unilaterally conclude that advertising is usless and stop spending money on it. This is, after all, as far as I can tell, the lesson Loki wanted to teach Hel: that priests are a cost, and their effects seem minimal in a crowded field, but they ultimately have a ROI that more than covers the expense.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Again, I'm a bit confused as to how you are reading the bet. The bet concerns what Hel is and is not allowed to do. It never placed any restrictions on what Thor was allowed to do.

By that above, Thor gets to do all the pushing

No, all the gods get to do pushing except Hel. Thor just put up the "stay off the grass" sign. Oh, and the people getting pushed don't get to go to a different park where they can still walk on the grass, as part of the deal as well. But that's just the bet stinking in general, not any commentary on Thor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, all the gods get to do pushing except Hel. Thor just put up the "stay off the grass" sign.

No he didn't. He just started pushing people off the grass instead of every which way as he used to. Unless we are changing metaphors again and now they are in the sign-making business.

Again, nothing in this bet stops Thor from doing his job, which is to tell anyone that will listen that Thor's heaven is better than Hel's, and that to get to Thor's heaven, they need to perform actions x, y, and z. The bet changed the actions from (e.g.) 'be chaotic good and praise me' to 'die honorably', but Thor still gets to be a god, which means he still gets to shove people in the direction he feels like it will be to his advantage.

So if you claim he put up a sign, then the metaphor implies that putting up signs is something gods routinely do. Hel, per the bet, no longer gets to put up signs, but Thor can still do. And Hel now complains that Thor's signs don't look like the ones in the old world, which told people to (e.g.) not spit on the grass, and now instead simply tell them to stay off the grass entirely.

Again, the bet didn't restrict Thor's actions. The bet only restricted Hel's. Thor going on with business as usual of telling followers how to get to his realm is not thumbing the scales. The bet was essentially "would you want to bet that if you take the day off, and your competition has to hand over their income if they don't collect it in a specific way", and you take the bet because you think the competition won't be able to re-arrange their business to exploit the specific way.

But then they do, because you aren't there to stop them.

Grey Wolf

[Rogar Demonblud]

I completely agree. She is a good planner. She’s just not been characterized as a great long-term planner.

She’s had years and years to come up with this plan, but if Durkon didn’t Just So Happen to get vampirized right before the Godsmoot, she wouldn’t have been able to put it into action. She had no grand, long term plan to get a high priest. She hadn't done a single thing to make this opportunity happen.
The opportunity of Durkon’s vampirization dropped in her lap, and she used it to her fullest potential.

Yes, it’s a great plan. But, again, this has all happened, max, within 2 weeks. Great improvisation. Terrible long-term planning.

She did indeed have a long-term plan to get a high priest. The other gods sent cleric-led prophecy-driven kill teams (aka adventurers) to gank them while they were still low-level. Basically what probably would've happened to Redcloak if he wasn't hanging with a sub-epic sorcerer/epic lich during his power up phase.

[Jasdoif]

The bet essentially means Hel gets a day world off her job, and now she complains that the guy who is still doing his job is not doing it to her advantage. That's not thumbing the scales, that is literally Thor doing his job to the best of his ability.

Or to put it another way..."thumbing the scale" doesn't apply: that calls for manipulating the reading of a supposedly impartial standard (like using a thumb to manipulate a scale), and to my knowledge Hel is in fact getting the souls of dwarves who didn't die with honor. (Unless we want to start arguing about the edge cases instead of the bet in general.)

Thor guiding the dwarves away from Hel's afterlife isn't "cheating", any more than practicing for an upcoming tournament would be "cheating" that tournament.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Relevant... Community?

Show

That doesn't show on my computer.
It does now. What the hell?

Let's say you and I make a bet that Fyraltari will skin his knee. I then run over and push him down, causing a skinned knee.

you would have done nothing wrong

... I thought we were friends.

[Peelee]

No he didn't. He just started pushing people off the grass instead of every which way as he used to. Unless we are changing metaphors again and now they are in the sign-making business.

Again, nothing in this bet stops Thor from doing his job, which is to tell anyone that will listen that Thor's heaven is better than Hel's, and that to get to Thor's heaven, they need to perform actions x, y, and z. The bet changed the actions from (e.g.) 'be chaotic good and praise me' to 'die honorably', but Thor still gets to be a god, which means he still gets to shove people in the direction he feels like it will be to his advantage.

So if you claim he put up a sign, then the metaphor implies that putting up signs is something gods routinely do. Hel, per the bet, no longer gets to put up signs, but Thor can still do. And Hel now complains that Thor's signs don't look like the ones in the old world, which told people to (e.g.) not spit on the grass, and now instead simply tell them to stay off the grass entirely.

Again, the bet didn't restrict Thor's actions. The bet only restricted Hel's. Thor going on with business as usual of telling followers how to get to his realm is not thumbing the scales. The bet was essentially "would you want to bet that if you take the day off, and your competition has to hand over their income if they don't collect it in a specific way", and you take the bet because you think the competition won't be able to re-arrange their business to exploit the specific way.

But then they do, because you aren't there to stop them.

Grey Wolf

When push comes to shove, the analogy isn't perfect, I'll grant you that. But Thor putting up a sign doesn't imply putting up signs is something gods routinely do. "Putting up signs" in this metaphor is a god telling the mortals stuff that was decided between gods, which we clearly know is something that is not routinely done.

[MartianInvader]

The bet changed the actions from (e.g.) 'be chaotic good and praise me' to 'die honorably'...

I'm not particularly invested in this discussion, but I think this is the key point Peelee is interested in. Usually what all Gods do is say 'be this alignment and praise me', but Thor started giving a different, very specific message, because of the bet. This change of behavior isn't really captured by the grass/shoving metaphor.

I think that change of behavior is what Peelee is alluding to when he says Thor put up a "Stay off the Grass" sign. It's always something that Gods were capable of doing, but had no reason to do before, and so Hel got caught off-guard when Thor did it in response to the bet. There are equivalent ways you could work it into the metaphor I guess, but the key thing is that Thor communicated some specific information about the grass which made mortals *want* to get shoved off it, instead of just shoving them around like before.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When push comes to shove, the analogy isn't perfect, I'll grant you that. But Thor putting up a sign doesn't imply putting up signs is something gods routinely do. "Putting up signs" in this metaphor is a god telling the mortals stuff that was decided between gods, which we clearly know is something that is not routinely done.

No, we do not clearly know this. Gods telling people how to get to their heavens is what gods routinely do do. It might be as simple as "praise me" and as complex as "get involved in a neverending internecine war for supremacy for control of a single drow town". This idea that the bet required Thor to not do his job makes no sense to me.

Anoia, the Discworld goddess of Things that Stick in Drawers, is very specific:

“Often, but not uniquely, a ladle, but sometimes a metal spatula or, rarely, a mechanical egg-whisk that nobody in the house admits to ever buying. The desperate, mad rattling and cries of ‘How can it close on the damn thing but not open with it? Who bought this? Do we ever use it?’ is as praise unto Anoia. She also eats corkscrews.”

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

No, we do not clearly know this. Gods telling people how to get to their heavens is what gods routinely do do.

Grey Wolf

Given the intense secrecy of the Godsmoots, I would say we do know this, but your second statement is much more on-point, so I'll cop to that.

Also, you said doo-doo. That joke works better audibly, it would seem, but I'm not letting it pass me by!

[Resileaf]

Given the intense secrecy of the Godsmoots, I would say we do know this, but your second statement is much more on-point, so I'll cop to that.

Also, you said doo-doo. That joke works better audibly, it would seem, but I'm not letting it pass me by!

I mean, the Godsmoots are presumably for Very Important Things that mortals shouldn't necessarily be privy to, but not everything is Godsmoot worthy.

And in truth, Thor never told the dwarves that there was a bet. He just said "If you don't die honorably, you'll go to Hel." They have no idea what the inter-god arrangment is.

[Dion]

Sports leagues and casinos are in the business of providing entertainment (including betting entertainment) by maintaining the illusion that everyone is playing by some set of pre-agreed rules.

But it’s always the gamblers responsibility to know and understand the rules of the bet.

This is especially true once you start betting on things other than entertainment that is designed to be attractive to gamblers.

If there’s no rule against me shoving people, no rule is magically created by anyone placing bets that people will or will not be shoved.

[Peelee]

I mean, the Godsmoots are presumably for Very Important Things that mortals shouldn't necessarily be privy to, but not everything is Godsmoot worthy.

Not according to at least one Elder.

[Resileaf]

Not according to at least one Elder.

Godsmoot is not the same thing as Council of Clan Elders.

[Fyraltari]

Not according to at least one Elder.

That's council of Elder worthy, not godsmoot-worthy. Then again Godsmoot do happen frequently enough for several priests to be used to Dvalin's peculiarities which requires both his showing up (though he may show up every time he can given how rule-bound he acts) and a tie. A tie between a prime number of voters.

[MartianInvader]

Okay, changed my mind, I want to weigh in here.

Hel was clearly tricked into this bet. She thought it meant one thing, but actually it meant another (she assumed no one would explicitly tell the mortals about the new rules). But, she did have the information available to figure out what it really meant, if she had thought it through more carefully.

Is it morally wrong to trick someone into doing something bad for themselves, if they have the information necessary to figure out that it's bad? I would say it's just as bad to trick a dumb person into doing something obviously dumb as it is to trick a smart person into doing something not obviously dumb. So I think intentionally tricking Hel into taking this bet is morally wrong. Of course, tricking people into doing stuff in morally wrong ways is kind of Loki's whole thing, so that's not surprising.

To me, then, the crux of the issue comes down to: Did Thor also intentionally trick Hel into taking the bet? Or was it pretty much all Loki's scheming, and the bet just kind of fell into Thor's lap without him understanding what built up to it? If it was intentional, then I think he did something morally wrong. If not, then Thor was just acting in good faith, accepting what he thought was a good bet for him, and no evil acts were involved (other than Loki's).

I think the recollection we've seen so far leans towards "Thor didn't intentionally trick Hel", though the evidence isn't 100% definitive.

[Resileaf]

That's council of Elder worthy, not godsmoot-worthy. Then again Godsmoot do happen frequently enough for several priests to be used to Dvalin's peculiarities which requires both his showing up (though he may show up every time he can given how rule-bound he acts) and a tie. A tie between a prime number of voters.

What this means to me is that not every god participates to the Godsmoot every time (or their representatives don't get to the meeting in time). Presumably they get inane meetings too.

To me, then, the crux of the issue comes down to: Did Thor also intentionally trick Hel into taking the bet? Or was it pretty much all Loki's scheming, and the bet just kind of fell into Thor's lap without him understanding what built up to it? If it was intentional, then I think he did something morally wrong. If not, then Thor was just acting in good faith, accepting what he thought was a good bet for him, and no evil acts were involved.

I think the recollection we've seen so far leans towards "Thor didn't intentionally trick Hel", though the evidence isn't 100% definitive.

Thor was drunk when Loki made the bet for him. He wasn't even tricked, he was just forced into something he was not aware was happening.

[WolvesbaneIII]

It was toteach his daughtera valuable lesson; that long term planning os useful!

This could be the case.

She did indeed have a long-term plan to get a high priest. The other gods sent cleric-led prophecy-driven kill teams (aka adventurers) to gank them while they were still low-level. Basically what probably would've happened to Redcloak if he wasn't hanging with a sub-epic sorcerer/epic lich during his power up phase.

I was under the impression that durkon getting vamped was a stroke of luck, and had nothing to do with any plannning on her part.

Such as if a person who was in debt stumbling onto a winning lottery ticket. That person hadn't planned on winning the lottery at all, let alone stumbling onto the winning ticket through means outside of buying a ticket. There was no plan at all, and it was merely luck.

When push comes to shove, the analogy isn't perfect, I'll grant you that. But Thor putting up a sign doesn't imply putting up signs is something gods routinely do. "Putting up signs" in this metaphor is a god telling the mortals stuff that was decided between gods, which we clearly know is something that is not routinely done.

The issue here is that thor didn't cheat at all. In fact, hel has made it known that she can't do anything outside of the rules until thor does, so unless what thor did was explicitly outside of the rules of gods, hel should have been able to more, yet she hasn't.

In short, its not just me who is saying thor didn't cheat, but so is hel herself.

[MartianInvader]

Thor was drunk when Loki made the bet for him. He wasn't even tricked, he was just forced into something he was not aware was happening.

Pretty sure most folks agree that being drunk does not mean you're not responsible for your actions, nor does it mean you were "forced" into accepting anything.

That said, I do still think he probably wasn't actively trying to trick Hel, he just wasn't paying much attention to what was going on.

[Rogar Demonblud]

When push comes to shove, the analogy isn't perfect, I'll grant you that. But Thor putting up a sign doesn't imply putting up signs is something gods routinely do. "Putting up signs" in this metaphor is a god telling the mortals stuff that was decided between gods, which we clearly know is something that is not routinely done.

The analogy doesn't work because you've got it the wrong way around. Hel gets everyone except those who fall on the grass, and then Thor went and created Association Football, American-Rules Football, Australian-Rules Football, Baseball, Softball, Cricket, Field Hockey etc to make sure everyone falls on grass at least once. And this is intensely against his nature, which is drink beer while sitting on the couch watching TV.

But really, if we wanted people acting optimally, we wouldn't be reading this comic. Optimal Xykon would've stepped out of a secret door and meteor swarmed the Order the first room in the Dungeon.

[Resileaf]

I was under the impression that durkon getting vamped was a stroke of luck, and had nothing to do with any plannning on her part.

Such as if a person who was in debt stumbling onto a winning lottery ticket. That person hadn't planned on winning the lottery at all, let alone stumbling onto the winning ticket through means outside of buying a ticket. There was no plan at all, and it was merely luck.

Greg explicitely explains that Durkon dying was a stroke of luck that arrived at just the right moment for Hel to put a plan into motion. She thought up her plan for the Godsmoot only days before the Godsmoot happened.

Pretty sure most folks agree that being drunk does not mean you're not responsible for your actions, nor does it mean you were "forced" into accepting anything.

That said, I do still think he probably wasn't actively trying to trick Hel, he just wasn't paying much attention to what was going on.

If we're at a party, that you're getting drunk somewhere, and that you hear me mention your name, and you drunkenly look in my direction asking what's going on, and I don't say anything, and the next day I tell you that I bet your car, knowing full well that you weren't paying attention to my conversation, whose fault is it that your car is now being bet?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not according to at least one Elder.

"Not being told in advance" is not the same as "not being told the results". In fact, I'd imagine that the elders would have got a full description of the issue. It's not just Dvalin's second-high priest going "Hey, Dvalin wants an opinion on a topic he can't discuss. You guys vote "yes" or "no"?"

Grey Wolf

[MartianInvader]

If we're at a party, that you're getting drunk somewhere, and that you hear me mention your name, and you drunkenly look in my direction asking what's going on, and I don't say anything, and the next day I tell you that I bet your car, knowing full well that you weren't paying attention to my conversation, whose fault is it that your car is now being bet?

Ah, I think I see where our disagreement comes from. You seem to think that what is shown in comic #1083 is the sum total of what went into forming the bet. I believe that it's just a snippet and there was more interaction with Thor in which he explicitly agreed.

[Dion]

To me, then, the crux of the issue comes down to: Did Thor also intentionally trick Hel into taking the bet?

I don’t think it matters.

Hel and Loki agreed together to do a terrible thing. Hel thought that terrible thing would be to her advantage.

It isn’t wrong for Thor to stop terrible things from happening.

Imagine if the Acme Vampire Food company conspired to harvest the blood of every living person in the Southern Hemisphere for a vast profit.

If someone worked to help everyone in the Southern Hemisphere move north and avoid harvesting, are they wrong for ruining the profits of the Acme Vampire Food company?

[Watcher]

I’ve cracked it!!

Peelee and Grey Wolf are hanging around the intersection of Main Street and Maple Trail. Both roads lead to Taco Bell. Local taxi driver Loki rolls up and says, “Hey, I got a bet! If more people walk down Main Street than Maple Trail, then Grey Wolf has to buy Peelee a beer. Only catch is, Peelee, you can’t be standing here.”
“Okay,” says Grey Wolf.
“I’ll take that bet! Main Street is the default way to walk to get to Taco Bell. Also, I’m going to shove everyone who walks down Main Street.” says Peelee.

The bet is on!! Grey Wolf hangs around the intersection. Whenever someone walks up, he says, “Don’t go that way. There’s a crazy person who’s shoving people on Main Street. Skinning their knees. Take Maple Trail.”
Occasionally, Loki drives up at that moment and says, “Maple Trail is so long! I’ll give you a lift!” Most people just walk.

Later, Peelee owes Grey Wolf a beer. He’s outraged! “I didn’t think you would tell them how to get to Taco Bell without getting shoved!”

But... he sorta coulda figured it out for himself.

[Resileaf]

Ah, I think I see where our disagreement comes from. You seem to think that what is shown in comic #1083 is the sum total of what went into forming the bet. I believe that it's just a snippet and there was more interaction with Thor in which he explicitly agreed.

Fair enough. I would have personally just imagined that if there was anything more, Hel would have had reason to show it as well in her illusion/flashback.

[MartianInvader]

I don’t think it matters.

Hel and Loki agreed together to do a terrible thing. Hel thought that terrible thing would be to her advantage.

It isn’t wrong for Thor to stop terrible things from happening.

Imagine if the Acme Vampire Food company conspired to harvest the blood of every living person in the Southern Hemisphere for a vast profit.

If someone worked to help everyone in the Southern Hemisphere move north and avoid harvesting, are they wrong for ruining the profits of the Acme Vampire Food company?

Except that the simplest way for Thor to stop the terrible thing from happening would be to simply not agree to the bet, which doesn't require any deception at all.

If the Acme Vampire Food company needs to you to give it your super-secret harvesting technology for it to start blood harvesting, is it more ethical to tell them you'll give it to them, but actually give them sunlight-lamp technology instead, or to simply refuse to help them?

(And yes, that sunlight-lamp tech might kill a few evil vampires. But the ones left are gonna be *pissed*.)

[Dion]

Except that the simplest way for Thor to stop the terrible thing from happening would be to simply not agree to the bet, which doesn't require any deception at all.

http://wondermark.com/c1476/

Yes, assuming Thor was given the opportunity to object to the bet, then his optimal course of action would have been stopping the bet.

Regardless, he is not evil for him to prevent harm to others, even if Hel believed she was entitled to personally benefit from that harm.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Except that the simplest way for Thor to stop the terrible thing from happening would be to simply not agree to the bet, which doesn't require any deception at all.

Thor's current method also doesn't require any deception at all. If "involves no deception" is a desired characteristic, Thor is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Loki, on the other hand, is, but blaming Thor because Loki is a manipulator is, honestly, a bit strange.

No, Hel's "I didn't think Thor was competent enough at being a god for him to pull this off" isn't a deception on Thor's side. Taking a bet because you think your opponent is incompetent and then discovering they are not is self-deception. If that is indeed the case, Hel has no-one but herself to blame and, as we have seen, when that is the case, she blames everyone but herself.

Grey Wolf

[MartianInvader]

Thor's current method also doesn't require any deception at all. If "involves no deception" is a desired characteristic, Thor is doing absolutely nothing wrong. Loki, on the other hand, is, but blaming Thor because Loki is a manipulator is, honestly, a bit strange.

Sure - I agree that, assuming Thor did not intend deception, he did nothing wrong. My comment was in response to Resileaf saying "I don’t think it matters" with regards to whether or not Thor intended decpetion - so I was basically arguing that IF Thor was intending deception, THEN he did something morally wrong.

And just to reiterate, I also believe that the balance of current evidence indicates Thor probably did NOT intend deception, hence did nothing morally wrong. But I don't think that evidence is completely definitive, in the sense that it would be easy for the Giant to show more flashbacks, completely consistent with with everything we've seen so far, which indicate that Thor indeed knew exactly what he was doing, what Hel believed, and was intentionally deceiving her anyway. I don't think it's likely, but it's possible.