What if... Miko never killed Shojo?

[Fyraltari]

Here's a speculative explanation:

Elan is a bard. He's got illusion spells. He used one to make the ninjas think he ran the other way, and took advantage of their distraction to make a getaway.

Bam, no mercy required, Elan just managed, for once in his life, to be halfway competent.

Works too.

What would've happened if Xykon was destroyed in the throne room before Redcloak arrived but the hobgoblin army still won?

Redcloak has a breakdown over

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

killing his baby brother for nothing

and madly searches for a way to bring Xykon back telling himself the Plan cannot be completed without the lich. And he possibly kills Tsukiko too.

[woweedd]

I'd like to point out: The question isn't if killing the goblins was justified: The question is, if killing the goblins in their sleep is justified, why would doing the same to Belkar be unsavory? It's a Catch-22: If killing Belakr in his sleep is unacceptable, so is doing it to the goblins, and vice-versa.

[Fyraltari]

I'd like to point out: The question isn't if killing the goblins was justified: The question is, if killing the goblins in their sleep is justified, why would doing the same to Belkar be unsavory? It's a Catch-22: If killing Belakr in his sleep is unacceptable, so is doing it to the goblins, and vice-versa.

Well, at the very least the goblins are ennemy combatants while Belkar is a teammate.

[woweedd]

Well, at the very least the goblins are ennemy combatants while Belkar is a teammate.

True enough, but, as the Deva argued, that makes Roy MORE responsible to stop him from murdering people, not less. And Roy wasn't exactly doing great work, as Solt Lokyroung, the three barbarians, various fleeing goblins, ETC could tell you.

[Fyraltari]

True enough, but, as the Deva argued, that makes Roy MORE responsible to stop him from murdering people, not less. And Roy wasn't exactly doing great work, as Solt Lokyroung, the three barbarians, various fleeing goblins, ETC could tell you.

Oh yeah, I agree with that.

[Kish]

Well, at the very least the goblins are ennemy combatants while Belkar is a teammate.

Belkar asked the Oracle if he would ever get to kill any of a list of people that included Roy. With teammates like that...you don't need enemies.

[woweedd]

I mean, I personally agree that killing Belkar in his sleep would be, if not wrong, not what I would do, but the same applies to the goblins.

[CriticalFailure]

Works too.

Redcloak has a breakdown over

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

killing his baby brother for nothing

and madly searches for a way to bring Xykon back telling himself the Plan cannot be completed without the lich. And he possibly kills Tsukiko too.

That would make sense except I don't see how at that point Xykon could be permanently destroyed without Redcloak also being killed, given that Redcloak had his phylactery around his neck. Thus the curiosity about the rules for ghost martyrs and whether X and RC can sit around and plot how to deal with them while X regenerates if they take the city.

[Jasdoif]

That would make sense except I don't see how at that point Xykon could be permanently destroyed without Redcloak also being killed, given that Redcloak had his phylactery around his neck.

Off the top of my head, word of recall has no range limit and doesn't require a divine focus.

[CriticalFailure]

Off the top of my head, word of recall has no range limit and doesn't require a divine focus.

I guess but I would think that the Ghost Martyrs would finish them both off before going for th phylactery.

[factotum]

Off the top of my head, word of recall has no range limit and doesn't require a divine focus.

Maybe the entire reason Redcloak had a word of recall set up later (when DarthV attacked) was because he realised how foolish it was not to have one there? Although, having said that, it's unclear where he would have set the word of recall in that case--a battlefield is hardly a safe place to do so, and putting it all the way back in Hobgoblin Town would have required near-paranoid levels of fear of defeat.

[RatElemental]

Maybe the entire reason Redcloak had a word of recall set up later (when DarthV attacked) was because he realised how foolish it was not to have one there? Although, having said that, it's unclear where he would have set the word of recall in that case--a battlefield is hardly a safe place to do so, and putting it all the way back in Hobgoblin Town would have required near-paranoid levels of fear of defeat.

The place they camped the night before or the place he was commanding the battle from would have worked.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar asked the Oracle if he would ever get to kill any of a list of people that included Roy. With teammates like that...you don't need enemies.

Fair point.

That would make sense except I don't see how at that point Xykon could be permanently destroyed without Redcloak also being killed, given that Redcloak had his phylactery around his neck.

Well in that case it wouldn't have changed a thing, would it?

[Worldsong]

I suggest an alternate narrative on the sleeping goblins thing.

The goblns were combatants until they were put to sleep, at which point they're helpless and harmless.

However once the goblins woke up they'd once again be a potential danger, if not to the Order of the Stick then to others (weren't these goblins supposed to be raiding the countryside for supplies?)

Rather than 'killing' them, Roy took an action to assist Vaarsuvius in extending the duration of the sleep effect to indefinite duration, thus making them indefinitely harmless.

[woweedd]

I suggest an alternate narrative on the sleeping goblins thing.

The goblns were combatants until they were put to sleep, at which point they're helpless and harmless.

However once the goblins woke up they'd once again be a potential danger, if not to the Order of the Stick then to others (weren't these goblins supposed to be raiding the countryside for supplies?)

Rather than 'killing' them, Roy took an action to assist Vaarsuvius in extending the duration of the sleep effect to indefinite duration, thus making them indefinitely harmless.

Well, that's the question: If killing those goblins in their sleep is OK, why is doing the same to the considerably-more-dangerous Belkar not so? Personally, i'm of the opinion that they're both Chaotic, though not Evil, which precludes Roy from taking them, in theory. In practice, of course, no one is perfectly Lawful, and, though Roy is Good, and of decent Wisdom, he does have his biases, and one of them is in valuing loyalty, being a good leader to his team, one worthy of their loyalty in turn, above actually confronting Evil within their ranks. A Lawful philosophy, but not a very Good one.

[Worldsong]

Well, that's the question: If killing those goblins in their sleep is OK, why is doing the same to the considerably-more-dangerous Belkar not so? Personally, i'm of the opinion that they're both, if not morally wrong, at the very least against my personal code of ethics, and that there are better ways to deal with both, but it's a double standard.

While my emotional side doesn't like the idea of killing off Belkar my logical side points out that killing Belkar would in fact be fair game considering his largely negative influence upon his surroundings.

Of course given recent developments killing Belkar early on might have ended up being a regrettable mistake but you don't make decisions based on future information, you make decisions based on what you know right now including what you can realistically deduce from current information.

Although I must say that since I feel more aligned with Chaotic Good I might not be the best judge for what would be fair game for a Lawful Good character.

[factotum]

The place they camped the night before or the place he was commanding the battle from would have worked.

The place he was commanding the battle from clearly wasn't safe, as we saw in #451 where it was only the actions of a quick-thinking hobgoblin that saved Redcloak from being crushed by a catapaulted rock. The place they camped the night before, maybe, although it would still be inside enemy territory and thus some level of risk would be associated with recalling there.

[woweedd]

While my emotional side doesn't like the idea of killing off Belkar my logical side points out that killing Belkar would in fact be fair game considering his largely negative influence upon his surroundings.

Of course given recent developments killing Belkar early on might have ended up being a regrettable mistake but you don't make decisions based on future information, you make decisions based on what you know right now including what you can realistically deduce from current information.

Although I must say that since I feel more aligned with Chaotic Good I might not be the best judge for what would be fair game for a Lawful Good character.

I"m pretty sure Roy has wanted Belkar dead for a while: He hasn't done it because A. Murdering a subordinate, even a disloyal one, in cold blood, goes against his personal understanding of Lawful Good and B. He's kinda on a quest where he needs every bit of help he can get. If he could afford to get rid of party members, he'd have ditched all of them except Durkon back in Book 1. It's not so much that he doesn't want Belkar dead, it's that personally killing him feels wrong to him, in a way that killing Goblin Warrior #3 doesn't, mainly because, though Roy's a good guy, he's not the most empathic, even towards his own party: Not listening to people is his main character flaw: somewhat understandable, given that Eugene was clearly not the most responsible, and the order are...themselves, both of which would foster a sense that you're the only responsible person.

[Worldsong]

I"m pretty sure Roy has wanted Belkar dead for a while: He hasn't done it because A. Murdering a subordinate, even a disloyal one, in cold blood, goes against his personal understanding of Lawful Good and B. He's kinda on a quest where he needs every bit of help he can get. If he could afford to get rid of party members, he'd have ditched all of them except Durkon back in Book 1. It's not so much that he doesn't want Belkar dead, it's that personally killing him feels wrong to him, in a way that killing Goblin Warrior #3 doesn't, mainly because, though Roy's a good guy, he's not the most empathic, even towards his own party: Not listening to people is his main character flaw: somewhat understandable, given that Eugene was clearly not the most responsible, and the order are...themselves, both of which would foster a sense that you're the only responsible person.

Well, yeah. I was more providing my own take than making a statement about Roy's perspective.

That said if I had voted in favour of offing Belkar it would be right after the defeat of Xykon and before the arrival of Miko. The timespan in which the Order believes they've saved the world and Belkar is no longer needed.

[woweedd]

Well, yeah. I was more providing my own take than making a statement about Roy's perspective.

That said if I had voted in favour of offing Belkar it would be right after the defeat of Xykon and before the arrival of Miko. The timespan in which the Order believes they've saved the world and Belkar is no longer needed.

True enough. I, personally be cool with doing it unilaterally, but it's certainly worth considering. Again, I think Roy does want Belkar dead: It's just that his understanding of being a leader, specifically, that it means acting in a way warranting of respect even if your subordinate do not return it, doesn't allow him to. There's a reason he's relived to find out that fate is gonna take care of it for him.

[CriticalFailure]

Fair point.

Well in that case it wouldn't have changed a thing, would it?

It depends on how the ghost martyrs work and what decisions each side makes from that point. Would they decide to destroy the gate or try to defeat Xykon and Redcloak? Would Team Evil be able to come up with a viable plan to defeat Soon? I mean he is pretty good. Though I think Xykon is supposed to be a number of levels higher than him and was initially defeated due to his poor understanding of what the ghost martyrs were.

[RatElemental]

It depends on how the ghost martyrs work and what decisions each side makes from that point. Would they decide to destroy the gate or try to defeat Xykon and Redcloak? Would Team Evil be able to come up with a viable plan to defeat Soon? I mean he is pretty good. Though I think Xykon is supposed to be a number of levels higher than him and was initially defeated due to his poor understanding of what the ghost martyrs were.

Redcloak and Xykon both still lost to Soon after Redcloak set Xykon straight and started destroying all the weaker martyrs. They only survived because Miko came in and shattered the gem.

Depends on if defeated martyrs can 'respawn' eventually, I guess, though I could buy Redcloak and Xykon sniping all the weaker ones from a distance before charging in to fight Soon 2 on 1 and still losing.

[CriticalFailure]

Redcloak came in half way when Xykon was doing pretty badly. If they had the opportunity to recuperate and plan I think they'd have a good chance against Soon.

[Squire Doodad]

Yeah, if RC and Xykon knows how to attack Soon from an elemental standpoint, then they could probably make it through 2 v 1 pretty easily. RC&Xykon vs the entire legion of doom Ghost-Martyrs? Even if they know what skills to use, the battle is still something of a coin flip. Even assuming there are only a small portion of the GMSG that are high level, there appear to be several hundred of them, meaning that you'd have 10, 20, 30 or more high level ghosts that can't be instantly wiped out without RC getting lucky. As such, the GMSG could hold off RC and Xykon for a good while without Soon but probably wouldn't kill them, but with the Epic Soon ghost then just RC and Xykon, without bringing any special items or anything, would be a very difficult battle for either side. So Xykon would be dead even if they had prepared. Well, not really dead as Xykon's not...you know, from our prescriptive...

Also, while it is in no way the story Rich wanted to tell, Miko could have possibly become the "hero" of the arc had she gone ahead and taken O-Chul's blade to vanquish Xykon and Redcloak, instead of smashing the gate. Like, they were on their last legs, if she took like 3 rounds to get over there then she would be able to go and Smite Evil their faces off. She might not become a Paladin again, but would then be "redeemed" to some extent, and so on and so forth. The point is, she probably could have landed the final blow in the fight instead of abruptly ending it.

[woweedd]

Yeah, if RC and Xykon knows how to attack Soon from an elemental standpoint, then they could probably make it through 2 v 1 pretty easily. RC&Xykon vs the entire legion of doom Ghost-Martyrs? Even if they know what skills to use, the battle is still something of a coin flip. Even assuming there are only a small portion of the GMSG that are high level, there appear to be several hundred of them, meaning that you'd have 10, 20, 30 or more high level ghosts that can't be instantly wiped out without RC getting lucky. As such, the GMSG could hold off RC and Xykon for a good while without Soon but probably wouldn't kill them, but with the Epic Soon ghost then just RC and Xykon, without bringing any special items or anything, would be a very difficult battle for either side. So Xykon would be dead even if they had prepared. Well, not really dead as Xykon's not...you know, from our prescriptive...

Also, while it is in no way the story Rich wanted to tell, Miko could have possibly become the "hero" of the arc had she gone ahead and taken O-Chul's blade to vanquish Xykon and Redcloak, instead of smashing the gate. Like, they were on their last legs, if she took like 3 rounds to get over there then she would be able to go and Smite Evil their faces off. She might not become a Paladin again, but would then be "redeemed" to some extent, and so on and so forth. The point is, she probably could have landed the final blow in the fight instead of abruptly ending it.

Hero of the arc? Hero of the comic, more like: With Xykon dead, the story is effectively over. I do find something funny in imaging Roy getting raised from the dead, only to find that MIKO, of all people, killed Xykon in his absence. Also, that kinda makes you think: she thought the gods were trying to signal her by cracking the jail cell doors: what if she was right? Soon was going on about how the next human to enter the room could destroy Xykon for good: She was that human. Maybe THAT was the Gods' plan for her, and they, sadly, underestimated her level of denial. Adds a delicious new layer of tragedy to her story: She could have fulfilled the sort of grand destiny she thought the gods had for her, but she couldn't see past her own preconceptions. Very Shakespearean.

[RatElemental]

Well I mean, at that point she couldn't smite evil anymore, and that would have basically been kill stealing. She totally could smash the phylactery though, but I've never been clear on why Soon couldn't do that if he was just fine smashing Xykon to begin with.

[factotum]

Hero of the arc? Hero of the comic, more like: With Xykon dead, the story is effectively over.

I strongly disagree. The Snarl is still going to break out of its prison and destroy the world even if Xykon were destroyed right now--we know that's just what it does. The story arc involving TDO and that purple quiddity needs resolving before the story is close to being over.

[hroþila]

I strongly disagree. The Snarl is still going to break out of its prison and destroy the world even if Xykon were destroyed right now--we know that's just what it does. The story arc involving TDO and that purple quiddity needs resolving before the story is close to being over.

Without Xykon, they repair the rifts and work on getting TDO on board at their leisure. The big obstacle is Xykon - if he's taken out, Redcloak is in a much weaker position and much more likely to negotiate. In this scenario, Miko would have already done the heavy lifting, really.

Worse comes to worst, it'd be a different story, in that it'd end on a note like "That's a problem for future generations, the fight never ends, we can only do our best during our time here and teach our heirs, etc etc". But Miko would still be the hero of this story.

[Kelenius]

In that situation, Soon would totally kill Redcloak.

[hroþila]

In that situation, Soon would totally kill Redcloak.

Even better, TDO's new high priest would be in an even weaker position then.