A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

[Whiskeyjack8044]

First what we would Change*:

At level 1: Constitution is your spell casting ability for your sorcerer spells, since the power of your magic is inherent to you.

At level 2: Font of Magic. You gain a number of sorcery points equal to your Sorcerer level + half your charisma modifier rounded up.

At level 3: Meta Magic. You can select a number of Meta magic options equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

At 10th level: Your Sorcery Points Equal your level + your Charisma modifier.

At 17th level: It now costs 1 Sorcery Point to create a 1st level spell slot.

Multi-Classing: You must have atleast a 13 in both Charisma and Constitution.

*Further changes were made from the orginal post bases on feedback.
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The Mechanical Argument:

The Sorcerer is functionally a less complicated Wizard. I believe it is intended to be the easiest spell caster and inviting to new players. The above alterations do not change that. In WotC efforts to make Sorcerers more accessible, they have given the Sorcerer less options. This is ok, but I'd we are going to give a class less options we should allow them to do more with those options.

WHY CAST WITH CONSTITUTION?
Firstly, to make the class distinctive from other casters. Sorcerers should be THE concentration spell caster, they are the best as maintaining their spells in the heat of battle. Unlike Wizards, Sorcerers and their Hitpoint bonus from Con, can be front and center in combat casting close range AOEs. This would be the arcane answer to the Cleric. The trade off is that without a proficiency in armor, most Sorcerers are going to be hit more often. They would play very differently than other casters, and those extra hitpoints will be more forgiving to a new player, who are the target demographic for this class.

WHY THE EXTRA SORCERY POINTS AND WHY TIE IT TO CHARISMA?
Mostly to insensitiveize players to not just put everything into Constitution. The added benefit is that low level Sorcerers get to interact with what makes their class special more often. The highest a Sorcerer's Charisma modifier can be at level two, is 4. This would give them a total of 6 Sorcery Points, or 3 extra 1st level spell slots. This seems like alot, but next level they will be spending SP on meta magic and an equilibrium will be reached. Since alot of Sorcerer spells are concentration (and I believe more concentration spells should be added to their spell list), these extra spell slots can incentivize a Sorcerer to drop one concentration spell for another.

WHY THE CHANGE TO META MAGIC OPTIONS?
Again, to incentivize players to put points in something other than Constitution. This also gives a player more opportunities to experiment with different meta magic and reduces the chance that they regret their choices.

WHY THE MULTI-CLASS RESTRICTIONS?
Requiring both Constitution and Charisma prevents everyone from being able to dip into Sorcerer with out making sacrifices.
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The Thematic Argument:

I understand that Charisma is also the "Willpower" stat, but I disagree that a Sorcerer's power comes from their will. Magic is like an organ to the Sorcerer, it is part of them. They are their own battery. A Sorcerer's will can be used to shape and modify their magic, that is why Charisma is tied to SP and MM. The reason Constitution is their spell casting ability is because it reflects their ability to contain and control their magic. A creature with low Constitution would be consumed by the raw magical power infused within them.

NOW THE MOST THEMATIC RACES NO LONGER SYNERGIZE WITH THE CLASS!

The nature of Sorcery, as opposed to Wizardry, is that it is random. Why are Halflings, Half-Elves, and Dragonborn more likely to be Sorcerers? There is no reason they should be, and Stout Halflings and Half-Elves still are even if there was. An argument could be made for Tiefling and Aasimar, but they still benefit from better than average MM and SP.

AND NOW LESS THEMATIC RACES SYNERGIZE BETTER WITH THE CLASS!!

This makes perfect sense. A race that does not have many magic users would quickly be outpaced by those who do. While Orcs may not have the capacity to train wizards, they can rely on their Sorcerers to fill that niche. The study of magic would take time away form the study of more practical arts in the eyes of Dwarves, but those with innate magic would still be valued by the Dwarven community. It would make since that these races would have more Sorcerers than other types of magic users. Dragonborn and Genasi already cast innate magic using Constitution, so this isn't a revolutionary idea.
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The Sorcerer as written is a fine class with great flavor, but other spell casting classes out pace in almost every way. It also doesn't play much differently than a Wizard. In the end its just a mechanically worse version of the Wizard. These subtle changes make the Sorcerer a very different experience and enable unique character builds and playstyles.

So what do you think? Is this good, is this terrible? I've had this debate many times, and I think I've refined it and balanced it so that most should find it acceptable.

[Kane0]

I think this seems reasonable and is worth playtesting

[JellyPooga]

The sole reason I would tend to disagree with it is that I don't like the idea of Mountain Dwarf being the optimal race for Sorcerer.

Weak argument? Absolutely. Am I sticking by it? Yes

[sophontteks]

This isn't entirely relevent to the proposition. But sorcerers are not the easiest casters. They are the most difficult and punishing class in the game. When I DM with new players I ban the class outright making exceptions only if that player is willing to put in all the research nessesary to make good spell and metamagic choices. Its far too easy to make a useless sorcerer.

[JellyPooga]

Its far too easy to make a useless sorcerer.

I dispute this. It's no easier to make a "useless" Sorcerer than it is to make a "useless" Fighter or any other Class, for that matter. Perhaps the ceiling of optimisation for Sorcerers is not quite as high as, for instance, a Wizard, but that does not make the floor of their respective power-levels significantly different. Yes, Sorcerers (as with any Class) might have some "trap" options and being as limited in options as Sorcerer is, a new player could stumble into some of them, but to make a truly useless character would still take a lot of doing and I doubt anyone could do it accidentally. Heck, doing it intentionally is hard enough. The simple advice "take Firebolt" for a 1st level Sorcerer stops them from being entirely useless in low-tier play; the rest is developmental and down to preference and a large helping of opinion (your "useless" might be my "awesome", for all you know).

[stoutstien]

I dispute this. It's no easier to make a "useless" Sorcerer than it is to make a "useless" Fighter or any other Class, for that matter. Perhaps the ceiling of optimisation for Sorcerers is not quite as high as, for instance, a Wizard, but that does not make the floor of their respective power-levels significantly different. Yes, Sorcerers (as with any Class) might have some "trap" options and being as limited in options as Sorcerer is, a new player could stumble into some of them, but to make a truly useless character would still take a lot of doing and I doubt anyone could do it accidentally. Heck, doing it intentionally is hard enough. The simple advice "take Firebolt" for a 1st level Sorcerer stops them from being entirely useless in low-tier play; the rest is developmental and down to preference and a large helping of opinion (your "useless" might be my "awesome", for all you know).

Agreed. I think online the need for perfect spell and ability choices are greatly exaggerated.
I made a wild magic sorcerer who picked spells by rolling for them randomly and the party had 2 optimized players in it. I never felt useless or hopeless.

[Lupine]

I find the idea of having constitution based Sorcerer to be a great idea. Logically, charisma doesn't make a lot of sense for the sorcerer. He's not convincing something for power (that's a warlock) He is literally drawing from his own body for his magic.
If the question was running extra hard for a long time, the matter at hand would be whether or not he can draw enough endurance to run that hard. For sorcerers, they have a pair of legs in magic, and so they likewise are drawing from themselves to call their magic.

In addition, its just a cool idea: a spellcaster pulling from his own body.

Spoiler: Possible implications of this change

Show

Sorcerers would be able to gain an extra spell slot, on a constitution check, gaining a level of exhaustion, regardless if you succeed or fail.

Another interesting idea would be for the sorcerer's body to be the sorcerer spell-casting focus.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

The sole reason I would tend to disagree with it is that I don't like the idea of Mountain Dwarf being the optimal race for Sorcerer.:

"They ran for as long as they could, but the time had come to make a stand. As the goblin horde closed Soggi Singed-beard stepped before his shield brothers. With a mad laugh a gout of flame leap from his hands and enveloped the goblins, slowing their charge. Then it came to the rise and fall of hammer an axe, Soggi's flames illuminating the battlefield. While Dwarves distrust magic, his shield brothers said a prayer of thanks to Moradin for Soggi's gifts."

I would argue that Genasi would become the most optimal Sorcerer since they get extra spells, and that is very on brand lol


In regards to Sorcerers not being class friendly, I don't want to dismiss your experience, but I believe they are the simplest caster. Since the Sorcerer spell list is smaller, and they have less spells known, new players are less likely to be paralyzed by options or be overwhelmed by alot of spell reading. I think the current UA is gonna make spell selection more forgiving if it becomes official, but if you just make suggestions to your new player you shouldn't have to worry.

[J-H]

I like this.

[Misterwhisper]

I would be completely behind this as just a straight switch from charisma to constitution.

Anything to stop the constant warlock dip.

[Aimeryan]

I dispute this. It's no easier to make a "useless" Sorcerer than it is to make a "useless" Fighter or any other Class, for that matter. Perhaps the ceiling of optimisation for Sorcerers is not quite as high as, for instance, a Wizard, but that does not make the floor of their respective power-levels significantly different. Yes, Sorcerers (as with any Class) might have some "trap" options and being as limited in options as Sorcerer is, a new player could stumble into some of them, but to make a truly useless character would still take a lot of doing and I doubt anyone could do it accidentally. Heck, doing it intentionally is hard enough. The simple advice "take Firebolt" for a 1st level Sorcerer stops them from being entirely useless in low-tier play; the rest is developmental and down to preference and a large helping of opinion (your "useless" might be my "awesome", for all you know).

It wouldn't matter if a Fighter was easier to make useless (and I think this is actually very difficult) - it isn't a caster. All the other full casters are prepared casters, with the exception of the Bard who has more spells known and is less reliant on spells anyway. Being a prepared caster means if you make a mistake with one or more of your preparations you can fix all of them after just a long rest. Being a Sorcerer means you have to wait for the next level to fix one spell choice, and then hope your replacement is good otherwise you have possibly compounded the issue.

You are right that it would be difficult at later levels to have a useless Sorcerer (a lot easier at early levels, though). However, the statement was that Sorcerer is the easiest caster for new players, which is just so far from true.


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Whiskeyjack8044, I feel the idea of being fueled by Con for a Sorcerer. However, their casting ability should be Cha, since it is their will to manifest and manipulate. I would thus go the opposite way with most of the changes and add a few:

• Spell Points, instead of Spell Slots, based on Sorcerer Level and Con (some rebalancing of the DMG variant to suit this)
• Sorcery Points based on Sorcerer Level (on a 1:1 ratio) and Con
• Metamagic based on Cha
• Spellcasting Ability based on Proficiency and Cha
• Spells Known based on Sorcerer Level (on a 1:1 ratio) and Cha
• Cast an unknown Sorcerer Spell with your Spellcasting Ability against a DC of 15 + Spell Level. Failure results in nothing happening and Spell Points expended.

[sophontteks]

I have no idea how to make a useless fighter. Swing anything and deal amazing damage.

Sorcerer. You have 2 spells + 1 a level. If they are not amazing spells, you'll be in a very bad spot. There is a reason why many people call sorcerers bad wizards.

[BigPixie]

I would be completely behind this as just a straight switch from charisma to constitution.

Anything to stop the constant warlock dip.

Listen to this guy, sorclocks cause many headaches for DM's everywhere (myself included)

[Nidgit]

Binding Metamagic to Charisma is a pretty bad idea because it completely devalues the 10th and 17th level additions. A better plan would be to keep Metamagic the same as is but also switching of Metamagics when you level up.

[Sindal]

While I can understand and logically see the argument, I find this change a conflict of interests. Mostly because it solves nothing of what the main gripes I've had with sorcerer.

Magic is in my blood. Great. Magic blood is magic and healthy.
"But do I know how to use it?"

Your constitution, for most part, is passive. Your vitality. Your stamina. Thats just your body. It runs itself. A magic body would similarly work the same way. It runs itself it's own magical way. Even doing stamina and strenuous based tasks is considered athletics (which is strength)

You've still tied charisma to sorcery points and metamagic. This leads me to believe that to "do" sorcery, to be to bend magic to my will, I need charisma.

Metamagic, and sp by extension, are the main reasons I pick sorcerer. It is 'the one thing wizards can't do at will'. But you've made it the secondary stat. You've made less important to cast metamagic.

A secondary stat it typically something that's nice to have but inst that important to a classes make up. The half casters casting stat is a secondary and often they don't even need to use it that much because their spells are carried by their physical abilities such as hitting.

I don't pick sorceror to frontline or be anywhere near it on principle. Its certainly nice to have and we already prof in saving throws so we're half incentivized to take it but that's true for everyone. Everyone needs hp. I pick sorcerer to be a FANCY full caster.

Switching them up to be 'different' from the other casters is not a worthwhile argument to me, then you could just give them more resources tied to charisma to cast their current unique features and cement the difference in play. I don't need to have all the spells a wizard has if I can regularly change the rules of how my spells work and MAKE my spells more impactful.

So yeah. An intriguing idea and one that's probably worth testing for accurate data but based on what's suggested: a no from me.

Ps (I personally dislike multiclassing. Especially since classes get throw around becuase "oh he can't have that. What if someone else multi classes into them." Thankfully none of my players have tried)

[Aimeryan]

Binding Metamagic to Charisma is a pretty bad idea because it completely devalues the 10th and 17th level additions. A better plan would be to keep Metamagic the same as is but also switching of Metamagics when you level up.

You would replace those with some more interesting option, seems obvious to me.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Binding Metamagic to Charisma is a pretty bad idea because it completely devalues the 10th and 17th level additions. A better plan would be to keep Metamagic the same as is but also switching of Metamagics when you level up.

What we are doing is making the Sorcerer a very front heavy class, and that makes sense. This power is a part of you, either since birth or it was bestowed upon you. With the new meta magic options becoming available (hopefully) we can easily leave the 10th and 17th features as written. An optimized Sorcerer would have a total of 7 Meta Magic options. A sub optimized Sorcerer could make up for low Charisma by getting two "free" meta magic options.

[Spiritchaser]

This isn't entirely relevent to the proposition. But sorcerers are not the easiest casters. They are the most difficult and punishing class in the game. When I DM with new players I ban the class outright making exceptions only if that player is willing to put in all the research nessesary to make good spell and metamagic choices. Its far too easy to make a useless sorcerer.

I fully agree with the sentiment. Sorcerers are way too easy to get wrong, and take too long to adapt to a new party composition... but I don’t ban sorcerers from new players, instead I let them switch out a spell on a long rest (the new UA throws in something really similar with the stipulation that the level of the new and old spells need to match) this allows new players to evolve into a role and capability that works with the party.

I think it’s a small but important change with large QoL improvements for new players.

Of course I also let them change out metamagic on level up... but anyway...

[Trandir]

I have no idea how to make a useless fighter. Swing anything and deal amazing damage.

Sorcerer. You have 2 spells + 1 a level. If they are not amazing spells, you'll be in a very bad spot. There is a reason why many people call sorcerers bad wizards.

Pick a fighting style that you won't use and battlemaster that choses trash maneuvers and take niche or bad feats instead of your ASI and voialla you are a beatsick with nothing usefull and just lot of attacks.

Also I wouldn't call damage on pair with a warlock that just spams eldritch blast amazing damage.

[Onos]

Probably the most comprehensive line of reasoning I've seen regarding Sorcs and Con, the fluff implications in particular have really got me. Definitely making this change to my table for future games.
The real question is, should Sorcerors be able to cast from hitpoints (to any extent)? I'm toying with voluntary Con damage to generate SP, but worry that it might be a little unbalanced.

[Yunru]

Listen to this guy, sorclocks cause many headaches for DM's everywhere (myself included)

Give Agonising Blast a level 5 prerequisite, done. No need to take drastic action.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

Probably the most comprehensive line of reasoning I've seen regarding Sorcs and Con, the fluff implications in particular have really got me. Definitely making this change to my table for future games.
The real question is, should Sorcerors be able to cast from hitpoints (to any extent)? I'm toying with voluntary Con damage to generate SP, but worry that it might be a little unbalanced.

We are already giving them a maximum of 5 extra SP, anything else could be unbalanced or overly complex. I rarely Homebrew, but when I do I try to adhere to 5es design philosophy. My players are not intrested in running a Sorcerer, so this hasn't been play-tested. If you run one let me know how it goes!

[Misterwhisper]

Give Agonising Blast a level 5 prerequisite, done. No need to take drastic action.

That just makes warlock it self worse to keep people from taking it.

Just make Eldritch Blast a class ability not a can trip like it should have been.

[Dork_Forge]

Give Agonising Blast a level 5 prerequisite, done. No need to take drastic action.

I think also limiting AB to just one ray per casting would also help. Eldritch Blast is too much of a "must have" for Warlocks that basically amounts to picking up AB and that's it. There's plenty more fun controlling invocations and other cantrips in general.

[Teaguethebean]

I think also limiting AB to just one ray per casting would also help. Eldritch Blast is too much of a "must have" for Warlocks that basically amounts to picking up AB and that's it. There's plenty more fun controlling invocations and other cantrips in general.

Though then the warlock is extremely weak. With 1 spell per fight taking away there favorite toy does them no favors. And at least on my experience warlock isn't an op class.

[Dork_Forge]

Though then the warlock is extremely weak. With 1 spell per fight taking away there favorite toy does them no favors. And at least on my experience warlock isn't an op class.

Bumping it down doesn't really make them weak at all, especially since it scales with multiple beams and each one will still proc hex. It's also not all about damage, they can also make EB push, pull and slow people in addition to turning hex into an aoe. They still remain competitve in damage but have more encouragement to try new things.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

My very simple solution for multi classing shenanigans? You can't Multi-Class until level 6.

But please, let's not stray too far from the original topic :).

[Garfunion]

I don’t really have much to add to this topic except that I really like these changes.

The only thing that really concerns me are the extra sorcery points.

Some have argued that constitution isn’t a casting stat because it lacks the “will” or intelligence needed to cast spells but. One could argue that your blood is speaking to you, passing its knowledge down to you from your ancestors or wherever you were infused with this power.

Charisma being tied to meta-magic and sorcery points still reflect the sorcerer’s “will” or capability of casting spells. Just in a smaller way. This makes constitution represent the strength and power of your magic while your charisma reflects your “will” to use it.

[Whiskeyjack8044]

I too worry about a level 2 Sorcerer potentially having 3 extra spell slots, but we have to have a carrot in place so that the player wont focus on one stat.

Anyone claiming that Constitution isn't a casting ability should be reminded that Dragonborn and Genasi cast their racial magic with Constitution. Realizing that an Air Genasi was a poor pick for Storm Sorcerer when using Point-Buy is what inspired my idea.

[Yunru]

Though then the warlock is extremely weak. With 1 spell per fight taking away there favorite toy does them no favors. And at least on my experience warlock isn't an op class.

Only at levels 1-4,which happen to be where the Warlock is the strongest spellcaster in terms of spells per day (according to spell point conversion).