Most Over/Underrated Class?

[MaxWilson]

I would put Misty Step as my first level 2+ non-abj/evo spell. Particularly once you might end up getting stuck in a Force Cage or the like.

You're hypothetically a 20th level Eldritch Knight at this point--you've got teleportation built in to your Action Surge, twice per short rest. If someone puts you in a Force Cage, you can Teleport outside and then hit them with 8 attacks. Misty Step is redundant and not a good investment of free picks.

the ability to throw down the occasional blast spell that might occasionally be useful (8 kobolds are still 4 separate attacks for a level 7 fighter, but potentially a single shatter).

BTW, I wouldn't Shatter those kobolds but I would willingly Thunderclap or Sword Burst the biggest concentration of them, and then War Magic one of the survivors. Cantrip AoEs are cheap and reasonably effective.

(The bigger problem is what to do if the kobolds are dispersed and using their slings instead of meleeing in Fireball Formation.)

[airless_wing]

Irrational Love: Barbarians. Why do I, someone who always used to play "skill monkeys" in most RPGs, keep making and playing new Barbarians? A class that usually dumps the stats I like the most? I think it's because, without being able to magic or expertise your way through everything, you are forced to be clever in your roleplay. I like upending other players expectations for the class.

As someone who loves Druids and Bards, I relate to this IMMENSELY. All the Barbarians I've played with have ended up being the most creative problem solvers, figuring out solutions that most others never would have considered, all because they are playing 'dumb' characters. I love it.
Barbarians are great, both from mechanical and roleplaying perspectives. Look beyond them as a "pool of HP" and you'll find a world of fun with them.

[Willie the Duck]

You're hypothetically a 20th level Eldritch Knight at this point--you've got teleportation built in to your Action Surge, twice per short rest. If someone puts you in a Force Cage, you can Teleport outside and then hit them with 8 attacks. Misty Step is redundant and not a good investment of free picks.

Ah, yes. I suspect that was what I was thinking of, and conflated the two. Regardless, Eldritch Knights get to teleport out of Force Cages, up to unreachable ledges, etc., and that's definitely a trick in their favor, in comparison to other fighter archetypes. Can you tell it has been a while since I played an EK?

BTW, I wouldn't Shatter those kobolds but I would willingly Thunderclap or Sword Burst the biggest concentration of them, and then War Magic one of the survivors. Cantrip AoEs are cheap and reasonably effective.

(The bigger problem is what to do if the kobolds are dispersed and using their slings instead of meleeing in Fireball Formation.)

Sure. I'd also consider Thunderwave (added bonus of potentially pushing away anyone left alive).

[Pufferwockey]

Irrational hate: Paladin's. Don't have a reason, they just bug me

[Amechra]

Overrated: Warlocks. And by this I mean single class Warlocks. Don't get me wrong, the Invocations are a lot of fun, and Eldritch Blast is a fantastic cantrip, but too much of your capability depends on how each individual DM incorporates short rests into the play sessions. Then there's the "feast and famine" aspect of the class. The first two levels of Warlock are responsible for 90% of the popularity of this class. After that though, you are in for a long, painful ride.

Irrational Hatred: Hexblade Dips. I was once in a high level [16-20] game at a convention where there were four "Warlocks" out of six characters in the party. Not one of them had more than three levels in Warlock. They were just "dipping" to boost the power of their Sorlocks and Hexadins. When I asked if any of them had considered going single-class Warlock all the way to 20, they just laughed.

I agree. Which is disappointing, because I love the flavor behind Hexblade (you're Elric of Melnibone! - I wish they had gone heavier on the whole black blade thing.) But nope! It was the Designated Fix Subclass for bladelocks, and so I can't play one without getting a taste in my mouth.

As for single-class Warlocks, it does depend on your Patron - I find Celestial Warlocks to be good single-class fun (I can be a Paladin without having to be a Paladin? Yay!)... but yeah, the class chassis itself isn't all that great. Celestial Warlocks feel better, in my mind, because their Healing Light feature scales with their Warlock level, so you're always getting an extra die of healing when you get a Warlock level.

[Chaosticket]

This is basically an argument thread about numbers as opposed to opinion.

The "overrated" selections that people are picking are mechanically effective.

"Underrated" picks are personal likes.

Okay I'll play this. Non-Magic classes are rated low because they lack Roll and/or Roleplay versatility.

I don't recommend everything make the same character, but the ideal Player Character has combat ability, skills, and spells. Giving them a distinctive personality is always beneficial, even if you make a "Only Sane Man" to contrast extreme personalities.

Don't commit the Stormwind Fallacy and think you can't game and roleplay at the same time on the same character.

[Ganryu]

Honestly, pretty impressed with how mature this thread's been. Everyone's been to the point and there's been relatively few arguments.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This is basically an argument thread about numbers as opposed to opinion.

The "overrated" selections that people are picking are mechanically effective.

"Underrated" picks are personal likes.

Way to prove your own point by saying that every class labeled as "underrated" isn't also "mechanically effective".

There's overlap, in fact I think every class has seen some amount of representation in every category. Seems like most of the discussion is very opinion based, both over and underrated being on how mechanically effective the poster believes the class is compared to how they're presented by the broader community.

I don't see very much arguing going on here, I'm seeing a lot more "oh, you also think Monk's are underappreciated and that Warlocks identity is stolen by multiclass dipping, me too!"

[Azuresun]

Overrated: Any overly optimized character (Sorcadin, Sorlock/Coffeelock, Padlock, Bear Totem Moon Druid, etc.). As much as I have many issues with 5e, this edition is so balanced, building a character like this for reasons beyond roleplaying is so dull. If you're new to 5e, give one of em a good run and get it out of your system. Beyond that, there's plenty of ability in just about any other build.

Same here, really. The thing for me is....what's your reward if you realise your build? Trivialising encounters the DM hoped would be cool? Making less optimised party members feel like anything they can do, you can do better?

[Chaosticket]

Well on that I understand. Warlock in 3.5 was just for people that didnt want to deal with Vancian magic slots, the same reasoning for the Sorcerer, Psion, and various other "spontaneous casters". That actually hurt them badly as in 3.5 the whole metagame at higher levels shifted far away from Attack and Damage, and into Status effects and out-of-the-box thinking, usually from spells. Warlocks didnt have that.

5th edition Warlock is better because it actually has decent casting. Spells overall have been weakened, so Warlock is pretty much on par. Not a great spell list, which really hurts in the long run and makes the Warlock a B-Class. More options than a Fighter but less than a Wizard..

Biggest Advantage and disadvantage to the Warlock is Pact Magic. 1-4 Slots per day is ridiculously low. You would probably use 1 spell per round on anything but Concentration spells. Thankfully you regain them on Short Rests. You just have to Short Rest 5+ times a day.

I actually like the 5e Warlock. Invocations come in a variety that are good as "combo platter powers". Eldritch Blast is an excellent Cantrip. Pact Magic requires game system exploitation to really use well. WHat really kills in the long term are the Mystic Arcanum. You only get to Know 1 spell at spell levels 6, 7, 8, and 9, and only 1 slot. This is so much worse than every other spellcaster besides the Sorcerer.

So I rate it fairly. Lots of early-medium usefulness, but not a Long-term class, because youll just be using Eldritch Blast most of the time.

===========================================
Most characters fall into that trap of being overspecialized. For 40 years multiclassing had been the answer. 1st-2nd edition had Dual/Multiclassing, 3.5 had Multiclassing and Prestige classes like Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster.

"Alloy" made by combining two or more elements, especially to give greater strength.

Multiclassing in 5th edition is underrated because its excellent mechanically and in roleplaying. Using it breaks characters out of "Class=Character Personality".

I like using a Bard/Warlock multiclassing to make a Planeswalker Bounty Hunter.

[Willie the Duck]

Way to prove your own point by saying that every class labeled as "underrated" isn't also "mechanically effective".

But didn't you hear? He declared that he follows logical reasoning rather than opinions, so he must be right.

There's overlap, in fact I think every class has seen some amount of representation in every category. Seems like most of the discussion is very opinion based, both over and underrated being on how mechanically effective the poster believes the class is compared to how they're presented by the broader community.

I don't see very much arguing going on here, I'm seeing a lot more "oh, you also think Monk's are underappreciated and that Warlocks identity is stolen by multiclass dipping, me too!"

Well, under- and over-rated is going to be subjective, since it is based on perceptions and preferences. However overall people are doing a pretty good job of putting forth reasoning and polite arguments. Overall I'd call the thread a pretty strong win.

[MaxWilson]

Same here, really. The thing for me is....what's your reward if you realise your build? Trivialising encounters the DM hoped would be cool? Making less optimised party members feel like anything they can do, you can do better?

More autonomy? Being able to split the party without crippling fear of getting in a brawl when you're more than 30' away from the other PCs?

[TheUser]

This is basically an argument thread about numbers as opposed to opinion.

The "overrated" selections that people are picking are mechanically effective.

"Underrated" picks are personal likes.

*ahem* speak for yourself sir, my underrated pick is -extremely- mechanically effective, it's just that most of the community would rate the Necromancer Wizard at an 8 to 9 out of 10 where as I rate them at an 11 out of 10 for absolutely overpowering the mechanics of the game.

[MaxWilson]

*ahem* speak for yourself sir, my underrated pick is -extremely- mechanically effective, it's just that most of the community would rate the Necromancer Wizard at an 8 to 9 out of 10 where as I rate them at an 11 out of 10 for absolutely overpowering the mechanics of the game.

...by relying on extremely controversial interpretations of the Necromancer's 10th level ability.

[Yakmala]

Overrated: Any class that people like because its Level 20 ability is perceived to be overpowered.

How many campaigns actually get to Level 20? Not many I'd guess.

Of those campaigns that make it to Level 20, how many keep playing for months after the party has reached max level? Even less.

[TheUser]

...by relying on extremely controversial interpretations of the Necromancer's 10th level ability.

Naw, even without Inured to Undeath Necromancer's are busted.

I even point out that the generous interpretation of Inured to Undeath isn't required for them to trivialize content from tier 2 onward.

[Chaosticket]

*ahem* speak for yourself sir, my underrated pick is -extremely- mechanically effective, it's just that most of the community would rate the Necromancer Wizard at an 8 to 9 out of 10 where as I rate them at an 11 out of 10 for absolutely overpowering the mechanics of the game.

"School of Necromancy:
Grim Harvest: This isn’t giving temporary HP, it’s only healing you (which is pointless unless you are wounded). You also have to be killing creatures (preferably with your Necromancy spells.) Good luck with that. Better ability for blaster style wizards than a god wizard.
Undead Thralls: Gives you a free known spell and makes your Animate Dead a bit better. Good ability overall.
Inured to Undeath: A pretty circumstantial resistance.
Command Undead: One clear bonus to this ability I notice right away is that unlike Animate Dead, the undead you control with this ability does not need reasserted each day. You can control a maximum of one creature at a time with this, but a terrific ability nonetheless."

Pretty solid evaluation. Ill elaborate a bit.

#1 Grim Harvest doesnt work with Cantrips, which are the primary spell damage source. Even in 5th edition the worst way to use Spells of Level 1-9 are just for 1 round of damage.

I can just imagine the Necromancer trying to use Finger of Death and get wiped out by Tasha's Hideous Laughter in 1 move.

#2 Animate Dead isnt a very useful spell. It just creates a basic Zombie or Skeleton. It doesnt make higher quality undead. You want to make more more than 1 then you need to spend higher slots.
the Necromancer's Zombie/Skeleton+ get a Proficiency Bonus to Damage, but any Wizard can learn Animate Dead.

#3 Necrotic damage is pretty narrow field. Fire is more likely to occur even without magic.

Hit Point Maximum cant be reduced? So immunity to Constitution Drain.

#4 Command Undead is cool to imagine but its purposely meant to be ineffective against more than 1 target or anything smart.

In Theory you can get some high level Undead...if they werent immune, resistant, or otherwise protected against your spells.

Youre thinking "Blaster Wizard" Not "Save or Suck" which 5e still has. That Mummy Lord you mentioned would dominate you in combat with resistance your all your magic, immunity to most conditions and for spells: Command, Divination, Hold Person, Dispel Magic, Silence and so on, on top of actions like using Dreadful Glare and Blasphemous Word to shut you down.

Youre really just mentioning somebody can TRY to use loopholes and confusing wording. Hey if you want to get into a Rule Lawyer War with a DM, go ahead.

[da newt]

I have a deep seated irrational love for the rogues. Cunning action, expertise, uncanny dodge, evasion, and SA make me happy. (I also really like to MC a bit of rogue into everything melee and even casters too sometimes.)

I dislike the assumption that all barbarians are stupid meat shield's.

In my (rather limited) experience, I don't think I've ever seen a non-moon Druid or any Bard played well. I think they have great possibilities, but haven't seen it played out.

My favorite Warlock bit is pact of the chain - so many silly creative things you can do with an invisible flying friend with thumbs and a higher INT than many PCs.

I also have an irrational distaste for the Sorcadin - too optimized for my taste.

Another pet peeve is the selfish PC - I appreciate a team player.

[TheUser]

Aww man, here we were doing so well not letting the thread derail into bickering....

#1 Grim Harvest doesnt work with Cantrips, which are the primary spell damage source. Even in 5th edition the worst way to use Spells of Level 1-9 are just for 1 round of damage.

You're absolutely right, thank heavens there are spells that deal damage every round, better yet, most of them deal the damage during the enemy's turn. So now spells like Dragon Breath, Cloud of Daggers, Wall of Fire, Evard's Black Tentacles, Sickening Radiance, and Dawn all heal the Necromancer repeatedly.

#2 Animate Dead isnt a very useful spell. It just creates a basic Zombie or Skeleton. It doesnt make higher quality undead. the Necromancer's Zombie/Skeleton+ get a Proficiency Bonus to Damage, but any Wizard can learn Animate Dead.

Animate Dead isn't very useful when you're not a necromancer what with skeletons having only 13 hp and dealing only 1d6 +2 damage. A sixth level necromancer gets an extra skeleton animated per cast, +6 maximum hp for each (~46% more) and +3 damage (55% more). By level 9 they have 22 HP and deal 1d6 + 6 damage (~70% more hp and damage). If animate dead were expressed as a function of hp times damage then the necromancer gets 9x the effective value out of animate dead at level 6 or more specifically, ~3x the hp and damage of the normal spell.

So yes, it's a bad spell.... for everybody else.

It's a level 3 spell slot that gets stronger and stronger the higher level you are when you use it, even when it's still a level 3 spell slot. It's so incredibly useful it hurts. They can even be used for non-damage for combat; barring doors, digging trenches, the help action, grappling other weakling wizards.

It also makes keeping them alive easier, so re-asserting control becomes much more of a possibility (they can spend healing dice remember). So now you're spending 1 cast of animate dead to keep around 4 skeleton archers that deal in upwards of 4d6+24 damage per round...for an entire day....

#3 Necrotic damage is pretty narrow field. Fire is more likely to occur even without magic.

Hit Point Maximum cant be reduced? So immunity to Constitution Drain.

...

but basing a subclass's value based on broken interpretation of words, and high level abilities isnt underrating them. You dont start at level 15.

Inured to Undeath says your hit point maximum can't be reduced. That does, indeed, mean your hit point maximum can't be reduced.

This sounds like an interpretation from the Game's lead designer that declares, as an absolute -in the complete absence of any necrotic damage OR constitution drain- that your maximum hit points cannot be reduced.

It's not a "broken interpretation of words" it's a regular interpretation of words on an absurdly broken rule. If you have something that can never be reduced, it literally cannot ever be brought lower.
If it's 100 now and I cast the Aid spell for +20 maximum hitpoints, even after the spell has expired, you can't reduce that number. It's 120 while Inured to Undead remains a feature the necromancer has access to (you can't stack the aid spell because the spell's "effect" is still in play and thus can only be overwritten by a stronger effect).

This also includes taking a higher number and replacing it with a lower number. There's no "broken interpretation" it's what the words mean....

The game's designers wrote a broken rule.

#4 Command Undead is cool to imagine but its purposely meant to be ineffective against more than 1 target or anything smart.

In Theory you can get some high level Undead...if they werent immune, resistant, or otherwise protected against your spells.

Youre thinking "Blaster Wizard" Not "Save or Suck" which 5e still has. That Mummy Lord you mentioned would dominate you in combat with resistance your all your magic, immunity to most conditions and for spells: Command, Divination, Hold Person, Dispel Magic, Silence and so on, on top of actions like using Dreadful Glare and Blasphemous Word to shut you down.

1. As outlined you have your own skelly squad to help you; they don't use spells at all.
2. You have a -team- of players helping you. (are you playing Dungeons and Dragons solo?)
3. You can kill the Mummy Lord entirely and so long as you find its phylactery you can just wait for it to respawn while your group is at max power and take as many attempts as you need to dominate it. If you're really desperate burn through the legendary saves and then feeblemind it before dominating it and get an ally to greater restoration it after.

[MaxWilson]

#1 Grim Harvest doesnt work with Cantrips, which are the primary spell damage source. Even in 5th edition the worst way to use Spells of Level 1-9 are just for 1 round of damage.

Unlike Fiendlock, they don't have to be *hostile* creatures, so you can buy a bunch of 2cp chickens during downtime, and when you get injured kill ten chickens with Vampiric Touch for 90 HP.

Undead Thrall is great in Tier 2 but later on as minionmancy really takes off, it becomes redundant. Diviners are actually better at highest-level minionmancy because of the ability to guarantee failed saves e.g. vs. Wish (Planar Binding), but really all high-level wizards are so good at minionmancy that they stop doing it after a while--it's game breaking.

[Chaosticket]

"Bag of chickens" is the strategy now? Chickens arent even in every setting, and if you go around killing them all to Heal Up there wont be any more. You know you totally Heal on Long Rests anyway? You would be murdering chickens using Level 1-9 spells and gaining 1 HP per chicken(nobody should allow Healing for more HP than the "donor" has). Short Rests would heal more.
Let me guess, you want to make Humanoid Skeletons out of the chickens too?

Yeah I can see this talk about the Necromancer is just about you going for exploits in the rules. What Dungeon Master would allow any of this?

Its just so easy to counter this even without outright denying the exploits as a Dungeon Master. Hordes of Zombies/Skeletons? AOE attacks and/or nuke the Necromancer.

{Scrubbed}

[ProsecutorGodot]

"Bag of chickens" is the strategy now? Chickens arent even in every setting, and if you go around killing them all to Heal Up there wont be any more. You know you totally Heal on Long Rests anyway? You would be murdering chickens using Level 1-9 spells and gaining 1 HP per chicken(nobody should allow Healing for more HP than the "donor" has). Short Rests would heal more.
Let me guess, you want to make Humanoid Skeletons out of the chickens too?

Yeah I can see this talk about the Necromancer is just about you going for exploits in the rules. What Dungeon Master would allow any of this?

Its just so easy to counter this even without outright denying the exploits as a Dungeon Master. Hordes of Zombies/Skeletons? AOE attacks and/or nuke the Necromancer.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

That's a very strong opinion you've got there about things, can't say I agree with it entirely, specifically on the bolded line. There's no reason you shouldn't gain the full amount of healing. The feature heals you this much when you kill a creature, you heal that much.

The argument should go both ways if you're going to make it, if your necromancy spell steals the life energy of a Tarrasque I expect you to heal for at least 363 hit points.

DND doesn't have to be combative, people can play "munchkins" in a healthy environment where you're not competing with other people at the table for dominance.

[Willie the Duck]

, but really all high-level wizards are so good at minionmancy that they stop doing it after a while--it's game breaking.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

[JumboWheat01]

I feel like we're getting a little too combative here. Best tune it down lest mods come with enchanted hammers.

[Ravinsild]

I don't recommend everything make the same character, but the ideal Player Character has combat ability, skills, and spells. Giving them a distinctive personality is always beneficial, even if you make a "Only Sane Man" to contrast extreme personalities.

Well maybe for you. Aside from Ranger I typically do not play spell casters.

[Chaosticket]

That's a very strong opinion you've got there about things, can't say I agree with it entirely, specifically on the bolded line. There's no reason you shouldn't gain the full amount of healing. The feature heals you this much when you kill a creature, you heal that much.

The argument should go both ways if you're going to make it, if your necromancy spell steals the life energy of a Tarrasque I expect you to heal for at least 363 hit points.

DND doesn't have to be combative, people can play "munchkins" in a healthy environment where you're not competing with other people at the table for dominance.

{Scrubbed} Is 3.5 more Balanced than 5th edition?

Vampiric Touch in 3.5 has logical limits. "#1 You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal. #2 However, you can’t gain more than the subject’s current hit points +10, which is enough to kill the subject. #3 The temporary hit points disappear 1 hour later. "

Draining more Life then there to drain is a violation of the Conservation of Mass and Energy.
That chicken aint a Blood Fountain. Youve violated reality! Just thinking about that makes me laugh some more.

{Scrubbed}

[Fable Wright]

This sounds like an interpretation from the Game's lead designer that declares, as an absolute -in the complete absence of any necrotic damage OR constitution drain- that your maximum hit points cannot be reduced.

It can, however, stop being increased, which is indeed a difference. If a credit card that you've been borrowing has to be returned, your funds are not reduced.

Gut check: Trying to use it this way feels broken and unintended. At my table, I'd probably rule against it.

If I rule alternatively, and I allow it, though, does the game break? An Illusionist will usually be able to negate three hits of, say, 15 damage apiece, with their level 10 feature. An Abjurer is going to go into most fights with 25 floating HP, and if we say it only recovers on a short rest, it's worth 75 extra HP. With the non-stacking (and PROBABLY unintentional) permanent HP buff, the Necromancer could have a permanent 20 HP from Heroes' Feast and 20 HP from Aid, for a total of 40 extra HP. They probably take Necrotic damage maybe one day in 5, at the cost of no longer being able to benefit from a buff that the other party members will be allowed to use, ever again.

Meanwhile the Enchanter is laughing at a free Twin Spell on all their favorites, and Evoker has unlocked the ultimate Magic Missile damage.

Cheesy interpretation? Yes.
Would I allow it? Eh. Maybe. Feature's pretty weak without it, this brings it more in line with everything else.

Okay laughing out loud. Is 3.5 more Balanced than 5th edition?

Vampiric Touch in 3.5 has logical limits. "#1 You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage you deal. #2 However, you can’t gain more than the subject’s current hit points +10, which is enough to kill the subject. #3 The temporary hit points disappear 1 hour later. "

We're talking about the edition where DMM:Persist Greater Consumptive Field lets you walk into a chicken coop, instantly kill (say) all 20 chickens in the coop, get +20d8 temporary hit points, +40 strength, and a +50% increase to your caster level, right?

Much more balanced.

[TheUser]

It can, however, stop being increased, which is indeed a difference. If a credit card that you've been borrowing has to be returned, your funds are not reduced.

I can't say I am a fan of this analogy.
Maybe let me try one you'll appreciate.
Max HP = X
New condition makes max HP = X+20
If condition goes away and max HP goes from X+20 back to X have you reduced max HP value?

Gut check: Trying to use it this way feels broken and unintended. At my table, I'd probably rule against it.

If I rule alternatively, and I allow it, though, does the game break? An Illusionist will usually be able to negate three hits of, say, 15 damage apiece, with their level 10 feature. An Abjurer is going to go into most fights with 25 floating HP, and if we say it only recovers on a short rest, it's worth 75 extra HP. With the non-stacking (and PROBABLY unintentional) permanent HP buff, the Necromancer could have a permanent 20 HP from Heroes' Feast and 20 HP from Aid, for a total of 40 extra HP. They probably take Necrotic damage maybe one day in 5, at the cost of no longer being able to benefit from a buff that the other party members will be allowed to use, ever again.

Meanwhile the Enchanter is laughing at a free Twin Spell on all their favorites, and Evoker has unlocked the ultimate Magic Missile damage.

Cheesy interpretation? Yes.
Would I allow it? Eh. Maybe. Feature's pretty weak without it, this brings it more in line with everything else.

Bring it line with the illusionist? The illusionist can use the creation spell to create a piece of vegetable matter that lasts 24 hours.
Let's say a banana peel.

If the Illusionist spends their free item interaction dropping the banana peel on an incapacitated creature they can now spend their action using malleable illusions turning the creation into a 5x5x5ft cube of Granite.

That's 21000lbs of crushing force....that you can also drop on anything..

Break through a wooden floor?
A rope bridge?
Drop it on a sleeping or restrained foe?

Buddy up with a friend and have them pitch the creation as a tomato in a nice big arc while the illusionist readies their action and blamo it's a 5ft Granite cube mid flight.

We can turn it into any object that's 5x5x5 or smaller btw. This is just the simplest abuse (smash with heavy rock). Need a key? A royal seal? A 5ft stone slab for full cover?

This feature combo happens at level 9.
The difference? Nobody underrates the illusionist and this combo happens before inured comes online.

Evocation Wizards trivialize entire encounters too with Sickening Radiance or Dawn....if enemies fail 1 sickening radiance save all those allies you protect with sculpt spells can just trot right in there and grapple them and thanks to exhaustion the enemies contest at disadvantage until the spell ends. (It's radius is also masssssssive so getting out is tough).


Wizards are designed to break aspects of the game. Is it really so much of a stretch that the masters of life and death magic aka necromaners take more punishment than the other wizards?

[Fable Wright]

I can't say I am a fan of this analogy.

Of course you don't; it's one that disagrees with your assertion.

Maybe let me try one you'll appreciate.
Max HP = X
New condition makes max HP = X+20
If condition goes away and max HP goes from X+20 back to X have you reduced max HP value?

Nope! X has remained constant, it's just that the divine credit card floating some extra HP has gone away.

Bring it line with the illusionist? The illusionist can use the creation spell to create a piece of vegetable matter that lasts 24 hours.
Let's say a banana peel.

Yes, as its 6th level feature. You've espoused the Necromancer 6th level feature benefits, each have their uses and DM-imposed limitations, like the fact that weight does not do damage by RAW. I'm comparing 10th level features only in whether or not Inured to Undeath reaches par.

Wizards are designed to break aspects of the game. Is it really so much of a stretch that the masters of life and death magic aka necromaners take more punishment than the other wizards?

Nope! It's sitting at about a 7/10, while an Illusionist is at about a 10/10, so it does feel behind par. Which is why, despite the interpretation you're espousing being clearly against designer intent and common sense (see further: no posters chiming in with assenting opinions to yours), I might allow it anyways. It's a unique take on it, and brings it in line with other Wizard variants. If it's not intended and against the spirit of the rules, but does make the game more fun for everyone, why not try it out?

[Chaosticket]

Cheesy interpretation? Yes.
Would I allow it? Eh. Maybe. Feature's pretty weak without it, this brings it more in line with everything else.



We're talking about the edition where DMM:Persist Greater Consumptive Field lets you walk into a chicken coop, instantly kill (say) all 20 chickens in the coop, get +20d8 temporary hit points, +40 strength, and a +50% increase to your caster level, right?

Much more balanced.

You mean the Useless High Tier spell thats duration is a measured in seconds because nobody lets you use Divine Metamagic? Its a perfectly themed Evil Spell. One Vampire uses it to drain a large number of low level NPCs and then trash the party.
=======================================
Sigh, remember when this was talking about classes instead of spells.

The Fighter is surprisingly good as a class. Of course its overshadowed in Skills and Magic, but its actually good at combat because 5e is so radically different.

The Samurai is quite good. Fighting Spirit is just great for single or Multiclassing. Bonus Wisdom Saving Throw is great.

Totem Barbarian is great as a tank because its resistant against almost everything.
=========================
Single class characters are overrated. You unlock basically everything by level 5.