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2024-02-18, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
My apologies, I was not trying to 'get you.' I was trying for a chuckle. Let me fix that.
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2024-02-18, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
It's too late now...
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2024-02-18, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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2024-02-18, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2024-02-18, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
As somebody who explicitly commented on 1295 how appropriate it was that the Final Dungeon would have a fight with the first really badass dragon to appear in a couple of books, I still very much doubt that's all of it, just because it's rarely the Giant's style to do just one thing at once. I fully expect the commentary for this scene to have a "besides, dragons are just cool" bit in it, but I do think there'll be a 'besides'.
Last edited by ti'esar; 2024-02-18 at 03:52 PM.
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2024-02-19, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Your premise is that Calder and the invaders are both threats to the dungeon now, so whichever wins, the other is eliminated. But Calder is only a threat because Serini placed him there - if she hadn't he most likely wouldn't be a threat to the gates at all. Now he is a potential threat if his stasis gets taken away.
You mention that that the winning party might lose resources in the fight - which is possible. But more likely they would gain resources. It's been suggested in this very thread that the Order might be fighting Calder to gain a level or two, and the victor (out of Calder and the invader) may gain magic items. Or indeed, as you say, the worst case scenario could happen with one of the two groups enslaving the other (either through Calder's mindbending, or Xykon's zombiefication).
Indeed, in one of the other threads someone (I can't remember if it were you or not) suggested Calder might be able to avoid a fight - he might ally with the invaders, or simply avoid them - so now there are two threats, or the two threats have combined.
If Calder wasn't in the dungeon, the worst case scenario would be that there is one threat there. With Calder in the dungeon that is the best case scenario.
Does Serini even know about the ritual? I don;t think she is trying to defend the gate from that specifically, but rather anyone at all who might be a threat to it.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2024-02-19 at 03:16 AM.
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2024-02-19, 03:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
The best case scenario is a mutual kill.
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2024-02-19, 04:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2024-02-19, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Indeed, and that is a good Get The Band Back Together argument.
You mention that that the winning party might lose resources in the fight - which is possible. But more likely they would gain resources.
It's been suggested in this very thread that the Order might be fighting Calder to gain a level or two, and the victor (out of Calder and the invader) may gain magic items.
As for gaining levels, from what we saw in the rest ogéf the comic, gaining levels in the OotS-verse doesn't heal you or give you back spent powers immediately. Maybe the survivors of the clash would be a level higher, but they'd still be hurt and out of juice.
Or indeed, as you say, the worst case scenario could happen with one of the two groups enslaving the other (either through Calder's mindbending, or Xykon's zombiefication).
If potential intruders enslave Calder but have burned through all their 9th level spells and lost 1/4th of their total HPs, that's still a net benefit.
Indeed, in one of the other threads someone (I can't remember if it were you or not) suggested Calder might be able to avoid a fight - he might ally with the invaders, or simply avoid them - so now there are two threats, or the two threats have combined.
Calder joining forces with the intruders without a fight has no chance to happen, based on what we know of his personality.
If Calder wasn't in the dungeon, the worst case scenario would be that there is one threat there. With Calder in the dungeon that is the best case scenario.
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2024-02-19, 06:24 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
I think Serini's plan was to watch any invaders, and judge whether they were a 'serious threat' while they attacked the first 100 dungeons. If they were she would call in her friends (if still alive). But she would do that long before the final dungeon. Who knows how fast or slow an invader might do the final dungeon - letting them begin that dungeon before summoning her reinforcments would be a huge risk. She kind of says that as well, but saying the gauntlet gives her time to summon her companions, which suggests she would summon them while still in the gauntlet.
So I think by the time the invaders reached Calder they will have already got past Serini's companions, one way or another.
Simply put, not, it is not likely at all. The nature of D&D combat is that you're going to lose ressources unless you can trivialize the encounter with your at-will capacities only without taking any damage.
Calder doesn't seem to have any magic items, so at worst he could gain the items of the intruders. In any case, removing the intruders who wield them is still a net benefit.
As for gaining levels, from what we saw in the rest ogéf the comic, gaining levels in the OotS-verse doesn't heal you or give you back spent powers immediately. Maybe the survivors of the clash would be a level higher, but they'd still be hurt and out of juice.
Note that the worst case scenario is "one side enslaves the other after trivializing the encounter".
If potential intruders enslave Calder but have burned through all their 9th level spells and lost 1/4th of their total HPs, that's still a net benefit.
Personally, I suspect that Xykon and party could beat Calder pretty easily.
Calder escaping without slowing down tge intruders is a "problem for later". Serini probably thought he could be tracked down and killed this time if he was up to his old tricks, and it'd be a greap trip down nostalgia lane for her team. Maybe she even thought that if they had to work together long enough, they'll remember they were friends once.
You suggest she's counting on her friends, but by the time Calder escapes she would have already called them and they either wouldn't have come, or would have come and been defeated, or been bypassed in some way. If they hadn't, she would be cutting it fine to deal with either the invaders or Calder. Calling her firends was a decent enough plan (had they still been alive) while invaders were attacking the gauntlet, but not when they are on the cusp of the gate.
Calder joining forces with the intruders without a fight has no chance to happen, based on what we know of his personality.
As said above, best case scenario is they take each other out.
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2024-02-19, 08:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
For what it’s worth, “did not think this through” is basically Serini’s character theme in a nutshell, especially back when she was making the dungeon.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2024-02-19, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2024
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
The point of the Calder fight, from my perspective, appears to be offering Bloodfeast the opportunity to show he's the Order's heaviest hitter once again. :D
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2024-02-19, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Not going to work.
First, the "shell game" is meaningless. Serini said that Redcloak's speedrun is going to bypass things and the Quint essentially makes her defenses a non issue.
Second, the issue is the actual Final Dungeon. The defenses there are much harder - for start the first encounter destroys all your magic items.
Calder has no idea how to bypass these issues and I don't see the Quint managing to restrain all the monsters here with such ease either.
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2024-02-19, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Not gonna disagree with that.
I am pretty sure that the Red Cloak won't be de magicked, since IIRC it is an Artifact....and I don't see the Quint managing to restrain all the monsters here with such ease either.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-02-19, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2024
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
I wonder, though: how will the Quinton react when confronted with the fact that it's been contracted to do enable the release of a force of ultimate chaos and destruction onto the Outer Planes? It 'lives' there itself, and it is all about restraining and binding chaos.
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2024-02-19, 11:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-02-19, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2024-02-19, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-02-19, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
The Crimson Mantle is likely to survive sure, otherwise that would have been the solution to the story in the first place.
But evil party still requires the rest of their magic items.
That alone is already too much of a threat that it's impossible for team evil to just randomly face.
Heck, their magic items are destroyed - that includes the magical darkness umbrella the Monster in the Dark is carrying. There's no way this is how the author will expose what it is.
As for the Quint, Redcloak's request was that they'll search all the doors until they find what they are looking for or search through all of them. Since the portal would open on the last room in the last door, then technically the Quint hasn't finished his task cause searching through the portal that is behind the door is part of the request.
On the other hand, if Redcloak sees Serini's floating head message and say something like "this is it" then the Quint might consider it under the clause of "find what you are looking for" since Redcloak never actually said it's the gate specifically and then leave.
I could rule lawyer it either way.
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2024-02-19, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-02-19, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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2024-02-19, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-02-19, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Dorukan's gate was pretty wel thought through. Even after its primary defence (Dorukan himself) went down, the secondary defences held Xykon off for months. He even thought to put a self destruct button in it.
Also, for Girard, I don't think what occurred was that foreseeable.
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2024-02-19, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2024
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Considering what Girard convinced his family to do to keep up its numbers, I think there was a race on between him dying of old age ... or discovering that the world's mechanics had designated him the end boss / cult leader of a pyramid-shaped dungeon.
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2024-02-19, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2010
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- California
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Maybe, in small part, to hammer home how much more effective the Order is when they work together.
V, by themself, got curb-stomped by a dragon, because once the anti-magic comes out "you cease to be a mighty wizard ... while I am still a dragon".
But put the Order together, pull out the anti-magic, and that becomes "you cease to be a mighty wizard while I am GLRKT!"
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2024-02-20, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2010
Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
I'll give you Girard and Lirian defenses since they seem a bit off considering both of them were based on stuff that undead are immune - disease and illusions. It does seem a bit weird since you'd expect undead big bads as one of the most common evil tropes.
Howver -
Soon was about to do the one thing nobody has managed - killing Xykon and Redcloak for good (pun intended). Remember that this is the only time in the strip that we've seen Xykon actually scared from an opponent and wanting to run away.
So yeah, that was a pretty good defense until Myko messed things up. That was not a reasonably expected issue.
Dorkun's defense stomped Xykon entirely. Preventing anyone evil from reaching the gate was spot on.
The only reason it went down was because Elan was too stupid to think it would be cool to press the self destruct button. And before anyone asks - the trial had V exactly asking what the point of a self destruction button was in the first place and they got a decent explanation.
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2024-02-20, 03:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- Germany
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
*sigh* Undead are not immune to illusions. Undead are immune to Mind-affecting abilities, which includes some illusions, but they don't have a categorical immunity to illusion.
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2024-02-20, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-02-20, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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2024-02-20, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: So, what is the pont of the battle with Calder?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1