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Thread: Stacking extra attack
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2024-04-06, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
And not some kind of consolation prize like brutal critial.
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2024-04-06, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Subsequent times you get EA you get a feat?
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2024-04-06, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
I cant tell if youre bluetexting but thats exactly what i said on page 2. Apparently thats too strong.
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2024-04-06, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Wanna try the homebrew system me and my friends play? It was developed by a friend of mine and all you need to play is found here
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2024-04-06, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
The feat suggestion comes up a lot. It's probably a bit much, but certainly is simple and probably good enough. I still like the idea of something works with attacks, and misses in the ideal case. Whether it's turn a miss in to a hit X/short, or re-roll 1 miss per attack action X/Short (or unlimited, but 1/Action), or do X damage on a miss X/Short. There are lots of options, heck you could try and make a list of relatively balanced options and let a player pick 1.
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2024-04-06, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
A fighting style is too weak for a full feat on its own most of the time too.
Reliable talent, but for weapon attacks.
The first time you would otherwise double-up on EA, you cant roll below 8 on a weapon attack that you're proficient with. The second time, increase to 10.Last edited by Kane0; 2024-04-06 at 05:32 PM.
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2024-04-06, 05:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
That's another idea, though I would be against it as it takes a lot of the variance out of the game (which is the exact opposite from the principle of bounded accuracy). The thing that I think appeals to me most is a turning a miss in to a hit X/Short. I also think that should probably just be a general Fighter ability along with Indomitable becoming Legendary Resistance.
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2024-04-06, 08:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
I'll state the implicit caveat that we are of course entitled to our own opinions and to play the game how we want to play it, etc etc., but -
This is not nearly aggressive enough of change IMO. The classes as listed are not that close in power, at least once they reach ~level 7. They can be more even if the DM rains items on the weaker classes, but far from this being said in the core books, they don't even offer real support for rewarding and using magic items.
While I wasn't actually expecting it, I was really hoping OneDND would take more seriously the shortcomings of barbarian, ranger, fighter, monk, rogue, and warlock and actually change things (especially barb, fighter, rogue, and monk, who share many problems).
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2024-04-07, 05:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
(note: I'll bracket Hero System equivalent terms in <>)
I meant to say, that I treat the ideal class and level based system balance as: assuming two characters of different classes/archetypes are of the same level, each character's bread and butter abilities' theoretical peak performance<Active Points> and the sum of all abilities each character has (assuming practical performance)<(sum of) Real Cost> must be roughly equal.
That's why I also dislike the "limited must be stronger" mentality of current D&D, as it is anathema to my line of thoughts...Below are the things I personally care when rating whether I consider a RPG rule as a favorite or not, in order;
- Legally guraranteed for free commercial redistribution (ORC, CC-BY-SA, etc.)
- All game entities (PC, NPC, monsters, etc.) generally follow the same creation structure and gameplay rules (with some obvious exceptions)
- Martial and Magical character archetypes do not completely overshadow each other in common situations (combat, exploration, socialization, etc.)
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2024-04-07, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
I could get behind a curated list of feats in exchange for redundant instances of Extra Attack, ideally level 1 feats. Fighting Styles, Tough, Skilled, Savage Attacker, Tavern Brawler, or the new Alert/Lucky for example. But simply being an extra ASI would definitely be a bridge too far.
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2024-04-07, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Wanna try the homebrew system me and my friends play? It was developed by a friend of mine and all you need to play is found here
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2024-04-07, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2024-04-07, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
I don't think it's unreasonable to restrict some feats at level one. Tier One has some big differences between Tier Two and beyond, especially in survivability of you and your enemies.
Polearm Master, for instance, is ridiculously good at level one, since even a 1d4+Mod attack can kill a weaker foe. At level four, it's not nearly so big a deal-even if there are foes weak enough to die to the butt hit, there's either a LOT of them, or the fight wasn't that big a deal to start with.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2024-04-07, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Err... yes it is, and that's exactly what they're doing?
Making a feat require 4th level and/or have additional prerequisites on top of that, is a direct admission by the devs that they see it as more powerful than one that has none, that's why I only listed ones they've concluded are good for 1st level.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-04-07, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Yes the bonus action attacks are the posterchild for string feats, doubly so prior to Extra Attack
So why at level 10+ are you applying that level 1 restriction? Extra attack is worth double your damage output when you get it at level 5, and the earliest you can get it again is another 5 levels in a different class where it would be worth +50% output this time around if you go with straight stacking. An ASI should be worth about that much, right at the tier breakpoint even.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2024-04-07, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
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2024-04-07, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2024-04-07, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Oh, no. It's more like 3 abilities at 10 peak performance unhindered practically too, versus 6 abilities of peak performance 10 which are actually hindered practically via limitations (such as a looong casting time) unto 5 practical performance.
----
AFAIK, other than HERO which has this mantra baked in as a default guideline sentence in the rulebooks, Pathfinder 2E roughly manifested this which can be roughly described as "ceiling based balance" quite successfully.Below are the things I personally care when rating whether I consider a RPG rule as a favorite or not, in order;
- Legally guraranteed for free commercial redistribution (ORC, CC-BY-SA, etc.)
- All game entities (PC, NPC, monsters, etc.) generally follow the same creation structure and gameplay rules (with some obvious exceptions)
- Martial and Magical character archetypes do not completely overshadow each other in common situations (combat, exploration, socialization, etc.)
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2024-04-07, 09:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Heard
Hmmm
See I really don't think it is, and martials not really getting anything is exactly the problem. At level 5, a barb getting extra attack and wizard getting fireball, that's pretty well balanced. But at level 10 when a barb gets jack diddly and a wizard is casting 8 spells of 3rd level or higher per long rest, that's not balanced. Giving martials something really strong for stacking extra attack *is exactly the point.*Last edited by Skrum; 2024-04-07 at 09:45 PM.
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2024-04-07, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
A caster who goes 5 levels in one class and 5 levels in another is giving up just as much if not more. They'll get more slots, but sacrifice all their 4th and 5th level spells, not to mention higher class and subclass features.
I agree that Barbarian getting weak features at 9+ is an issue, but I don't see what that has to do with stacking Extra Attack, that's a completely separate problem (and one which they're actively getting ready to address.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-04-07, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Extra attack stacking only makes sense if any class that gets extra attack (at 5th) also gets additional attacks at 10, 15, whatever. I didn't really make that clear - but it's all part of the same overall problem. Barb stops getting meaningful features at level 8. They're the worst in that regard, granted, but the thread is similar for fighter, rogue, and monk.
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2024-04-07, 10:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
As stated though, I'd rather fix/improve Barbarian's higher-level features than turn every martial into a Fighter. Getting multiple instances of Extra Attack is the Fighter's thing; if every other martial can do that too, then Fighter becomes a lot worse, because it can't smite or rage or reckless attack or flurry/MA or.... okay Ranger needs help too, but you get my point.
Last edited by Psyren; 2024-04-07 at 11:49 PM.
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2024-04-07, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Eh, I think extra attack is both generic enough and central enough to ALL of those classes' main schtick that they should be getting it. Fighters' Thing can't be "well I hit things as many times as martials classes should, there for other classes can't get that." Even if pally, fighter, ranger, monk, and barb all got scaling extra attack, it'd still be
barbs have low AC, resistance, and fast movement
fighters have the best subclasses around
paladins smite, and get half casting, and cool auras (paladin privilege xD)*
rangers get...well some weak 1/round stuff, and half casting
monks get their unarmed/unarmored stuff, cool movement options, and different defense features
Point is, there's plenty to separate these classes. By no means would extra attack FIX them all, but it would be a start. OneDND is taking some legit steps, like expanding fighters' second wind options, indomitable will worthwhile, what barb is getting...like those changes plus giving them all scaling extra attack. Would this be an absolute power boost? Yes, definitely. But it would make the gap between the top classes and the lower classes a lot smaller
*paladins should probably be excluded from this power-up; my general opinion is they are the best class in 5e in terms of power level, scaling, interesting features, etc. I balk slightly at giving them scaling extra attack because they genuinely don't really need it. But barb and monk ABSOLUTELY need it, and ranger either needs scaling extra attack or WAY better and more applicable features; on par with what paladin gets. It feels a lot easier to push them in a more martial direction and give them scaling extra attack
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2024-04-08, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
I feel like I'm not being clear; I'm glad all those classes have Extra Attack. It's when you give all of them the Fighter's Extra Extra Attack that I feel both balance and class differentiation go out the window. And yes, I'm saying balance because I'm purely looking at the martials, not comparing them to the casters yet.
Fighters getting the better version of Indomitable and the better Second Wind and Tactical Mind/Shift would in no way make up for every other martial getting the same number of attacks they do; neither for that matter would their two bonus ASIs. This is plain to see by a simple question - if you could spend an ASI to pick up Barbarian's Reckless Attack or Paladin's Smite or Monk's Martial Arts features, would you? I feel as though a great many builds would consider that a bargain; so if everyone had the same number of attacks as Fighter, Fighter would be considerably behind the rest. And even if you buffed it in some way to compensate, now they've all got massive damage increases relative to where they were in 2014 of even what's being planned for 2024. I don't think that design would be healthy for the game.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-04-08, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
That's partially why Fighter needs some additional abilities as well. As I mentioned a few times throughout this thread I like idea of second chance abilities on the combat front. When you miss an attack get X (a reroll, maybe a shove attempt, turn the miss into a hit, there is lots of room to play here with varying power levels). Ideally the weapon expertise would mean more as well. Of course there is a need for non-combat features. But if the Fighter is moving towards the Weapon master motif (which I think it should), it probably more than any other class makes sense to have fewer noncombat abilities.
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2024-04-08, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Wanna try the homebrew system me and my friends play? It was developed by a friend of mine and all you need to play is found here
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2024-04-08, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-08, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
I've always liked the idea of Monk's Flurry of Blows to scale with PB. But, before people gripe about taking two levels of Monk and getting 6 attacks as a Monk 2/Ranger 18 - I'm talking about on their class leveling. So, 2nd level, FoB grants two extra attacks. At 5th level, instead of Extra Attack, BoF grants three extra attacks. At 9th level, FoB grants four extra attacks, etc.
It would move Monks out from being stunners to multi-attackers. The martial arts die progression might need to be reduced to compensate, I'm not sure. It would make Mobile a defacto feat tax, allowing the Monk to run around the battlefield hitting up to seven different targets without fear of OAs - but Mobile is pretty spot on for a Monk feat anyway...
Could put the idea on a subclass or two instead - Open Hand and Drunken Master are the two ideal candidates for this update.Trollbait extraordinaire
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2024-04-08, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Stacking extra attack
Why can barb and monk have things like improved divine smite instead? Or something unique entirely.
Barbarian 9th level, when you miss an enemy with an attack roll they take damage equal to your weapons damage dice.
Monk in all honesty may be systematically broken as its scaling is almost inverted. But how about reducing the ki cost of stun to 0 for flurry of blows attacks? 11th level how about.Last edited by Witty Username; 2024-04-08 at 10:03 AM.
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2024-04-08, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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