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2024-04-14, 07:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
I think with Thalmor pressure it absolutely was. Ulfric alone is not the source of anti-imperial sentiment, and while he was an ideal candidate to push into starting a war because of existing high status and buttons the Thalmor could easily push, if he'd died in the war the sentiments that started the Civil War wouldn't suddenly go away. It would most certainly take a different form, but it would still happen, especially with the Thalmor pouring gas on the fire.
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2024-04-14, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Last edited by Keltest; 2024-04-14 at 07:55 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
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2024-04-14, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
- Location
- Lemuria
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Galmar for one.
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2024-04-14, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
I don't know who would have risen to be the figurehead without Ulfric, only that someone would have. You're right that it probably wouldn't be a noble, and without a noble patron the secessionists likely develop very differently, but there would still be that anti-imperial sentiment and it probably still turns into a violent civil conflict.
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2024-04-14, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Lemuria
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Because all it takes is for a charismatic figure to cleave a Thalmor justiciar in two and start gathering followers to set fire to the tinder.
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2024-04-14, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2023
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-14, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-14, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-14, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Stormcloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
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2024-04-15, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Not really convinced he'd be able to muster a force anywhere near as big as what we have in the canon scenario. Also, he'd probably wouldn't be able to get much support from the Jarls, making his whole rebellion much weaker and shorter.
I mean, if he died in the war the Markarth Incident could go a very different way, and we do hear the open proclamation of Talos worship after that one was the point the Thalmor started cracking down on Skyrim (since they got an excuse handed to them on a fine silver platter).
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2024-04-15, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
I don't think the Support of the Stormcloak-aligned Jarls is all that important, none of them are particularly impressive. This is a rebellion that lives and dies on popular support, not the nobility.
The thing is that the Thalmor were looking for that excuse, and if they didn't get it from Markarth they'd have tried to find it somewhere else, and I fully believe they would have. The Thalmor weren't passively hoping a bad treaty alone would cause things to turn hostile in Skyrim, they were actively stoking the flames.
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2024-04-15, 06:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Sorry, but "The Thalmor would magically be able to achieve the same result under all circumstances" isnt that compelling an argument to me. Ulfric already had a personal militia for like 20 years before he killed the king. The logistics for a civil war don't just happen over night.
Beyond that, even if another populist leader does emerge, theres nothing that says that he's as politically unsavvy as Ulfric. Surely "the elves want us to fight" would be a very strong idea if it were actually able to penetrate the Stormcloak psyche.Last edited by Keltest; 2024-04-15 at 06:37 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
He had "a militia" that allowed him to retake Markath from the Bretons for the Nord before the Empire legitimized them. But the Stormcloak as a full blown military organisation only been around since after Ulfric was released a 2nd time and became Jarl of Windhelm. I don't think we have a date how long before the Duel and Civil war that was.
So there was a time between Ulfric and his militia being arrested by the Thalmor and his liberation where there werent any Ulfric to tend the flames or gather strenght.
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2024-04-15, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2023
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
It's not magic, it's covert ops. The Thalmor's spies can use proxies to back promising anti-imperial voices and use those anti-imperial activities to justify further crackdowns which increase support for the anti-imperial movement, and repeat until it gets to a point where the rebellion is self-sustaining, and from the Thalmor dossiers we know that this is literally what they did.
And I don't think it'd be the same outcome. Notably without a noble to stick on the throne there's way less of a path to victory for the rebels. But the thing the Thalmor need to create is conflict that wastes the strength of the Empire during the interregnum, and I absolutely believe they could do that. Scattered peasant uprisings aren't as good as an organized rebellion, but they'll do in a pinch.
Given that in this scenario the most likely leaders are not educated nobles but rather veteran soldiers and well connected commoners I find it easy to believe, especially when the Elves are very prominently backing the other side in the war. The Empire allowing the Thalmor to operate within their borders alongside the Legions works against them. While the Imperial leaders know they're working against the elves, that's not how it looks to an outsider.
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2024-04-15, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
The traditions and psyche of the disaffected demographic make peasant rebellion an unlikely outcome of social unrest in Skyrim. If someone thinks they can do a better job, they just walk up to the Jarl and say to their face "fite me, I can do better jerb." and then, most likely, they get handed a sword and the Jarl disembowles them, because being a Jarl lets you have access to a lot of martial training and good equipment, and being a peasant does not.
Changing the script a little bit so that you have someone like Galmar, a veteran soldier who is tactically wise but strategically kind of useless, he does the same thing to start his message, but then he gets stuck a little bit, because if he wins, now he has to actually do a better job than the other Jarl, which isn't something he's all that well equipped for, and the elves kind of lost the ability to overtly manipulate him at this point due to having enough power that he can just tell all their overt agents to pick out their own coffins, and they have to be careful not to taunt and antagonize him so hard that the Empire itself starts taking offense and tells them to hit the road. A slower burn than Ulfric's sudden murder of the king and power grab also gives the Imperials more ability to wield their own power, propaganda and just generally negotiate with the guy. A hypothetical Jarl Galmar is a problem, but not one that can only be solved with violence the way Ulfric murdering the High King was. Heck, you put Jarl Galmar in Ulfric's position where he challenged the king, and its STILL less likely to lead to civil war because Galmar can't use the Voice in the duel so he just fights Torygg conventionally, which makes the duel feel more legitimate to the Jarls and gives Torygg opportunity to surrender and yield to a superior combatant instead of getting murdered.
This is why I keep saying that Ulfric is one of the only ones to take advantage of the situation to actually escalate it to actual war and violence.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Skyrim has no shortage of skilled fighters and frankly most of the Jarls are not particularly impressive, but that doesn't matter because Nords are not Klingons and their nobility clearly does not actually work like this.
Ulfric is an optimal candidate for the Thalmor for a lot of reasons, but just because he kicked off the war by challenging Torygg to a duel doesn't mean that's the only way to kick the war off. If a bunch of rebels raid an imperial manned fort, that's kicking off a war. Or if a bunch of imperials crack down brutally on suspected rebels.
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2024-04-15, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
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2024-04-15, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Its really hard to say whether Skyrim even actually has a bandit problem. The Reach certainly, but the rest of Skyrim it doesnt really come up much, outside of radiant quests. Its a meme, but the prevalence of bandits relative to civilians and soldiers is obviously a gameplay effect.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Someone is arguing without actually bothering to learn the details of what he's arguing about.
The Thalmor detained Ulfric after the Markath incident, and was only released after his father died and he was the sole heir. For all we know, all of Ulfric's followers in Markath were killed in a Thalmor prison.
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2024-04-15, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
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2024-04-15, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-04-15, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: cloaks Or Empire (One Of The Three Certainties Of Life)
Not - per canon, there isn't, but I'm pretty sure Niranye would spy for anyone who asked, and probably is.
Oh, they'd look twice all right. Three or four times, even. Got to make sure they apply the correct gate tax. But sure, if the entrants are willing to pay the appropriate tax, possibly with a discretionary surcharge, the guard captain wouldn't bother to mention the presence of such (clearly) exemplary public citizens to anyone else.
Like I said before, I'm pretty sure Ulfric already knows that. It's just that it makes no difference. He's still right. What's he going to do, give up and accept the destruction of everything he values just because the Thalmor don't want him to?
The Forsworn are an alternative model. They still have a figurehead, a "king", but he's been pretty much invisible for the last 20+ years without, seemingly, losing the enthusiasm of his fighters. Imagine a version of the Forsworn that operates in every hold (except, probably, the Reach, because the real Forsworn would keep them out of there).
There's a question I mentioned way earlier in this thread, that nobody's considered as far as I've noticed. The question is: where, exactly, did the original Stormcloaks come from?
I mean, at the end of a war that has supposedly sapped the military strength of everyone concerned, how come Ulfric, newly emerged from a Thalmor prison, suddenly has a fit and trained militia at his disposal? Why weren't they as drained by the war as everyone else?
And now I've got a new theory. Of course, they must have been other POWs. The Thalmor released them with Ulfric, as a show of generosity and good faith."None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain