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Thread: Class Power Source
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2024-04-05, 11:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Class Power Source
Are Class power sources mechanically important?
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2024-04-06, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
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2024-04-06, 09:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Usually not. Some, like Psionics, determined aspects of how your class was built.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2024-04-06, 11:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Yes, they are, but primarily for feat, PP, and ED prerequisites.
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2024-04-17, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-04-17, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
When 4e was new, they mentioned a "Ki" power source was coming. They later realized that they were starting to pigeonhole Ki as the "Asian" power source.
But ask yourself this about classes and power sources:
This class uses discipline to develop and harness an internal wellspring of power to accomplish things beyond the scope of most people.
Does that describe psions, monks, or both?Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2024-04-17, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2024-04-17, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Discipline, not yelling until the magic comes out. There's a suggestion, at least, that a psion can exactingly instruct another psion in a predictable regimen, and likewise for a monk, whereas a sorcerer can only kind of coach another sorcerer, advising that other sorcerer to find what drives them and go with it to the hilt.
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2024-04-17, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
In a game where refluffing is officially encouraged, I think your flavour text may vary.
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2024-04-18, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class Power Source
Fine. Wizard and Swordmage, then.
The point is, there is absolutely zero difference in fluff between "arcane" and "psionic"; the only difference is mechanical (i.e. power points). Note that pretty much all classes in the PHB3 exist to show off a new mechanic, and only the monk represents a literary archetype that hadn't been covered by other existing classes.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2024-04-18, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Not quite. 4e made psionics heavily tied to the Far Realm in a way that arcane source wasn't (it was presumably too busy hanging out in the Feywild). Also, Arcane and Divine tended to treat having an inborn potential as an exception rather than rule, like with the Sorcerer, whereas psionics tended to turn that on its ear - the monk was something that anyone could pick up, but the other psionic classes relied on some variety of strange, inborn potential. Also, the difference is very, very important if you're playing a game on Athas.
(Also, most classes in general exist to show off a particular mechanic. Avengers used to have the most "best of two d20 rolls", rogues have their advantage-dependent Sneak Attack, etc.)
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2024-04-18, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2024-04-18, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
That's a bit of a stretch, since, say, fighters haven't been a solid literary reference since after 2e. And even then, fighters would frequently fall short of their hype (Hercules indeed!). Also, the game goes out of its way to make the archetypes mechanically defined in particular ways, so you can't really take one from out of the other. The mechanics and the archetype tend to be stuck together.
As for avengers, they are, in fact, a literary archetype - two really. They're cloistered monastics who are also assassins. There are a lot of both types, and some do this better than others, but they're the only ones who are both in one as part of a single package deal. The monk, psion, and runepriest are also fairly well-established archetypes from out of PHB3 - monks are another type of monastic character, in this case one that draws from a lot of martial arts fiction (with a heavy weight on it from the apparent need to continue emulating Remo Williams), a psion is what everyone thinks of when you mention a character with psychic powers, and the runepriest is a kind of fang shi (Daoist practitioner).
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2024-04-19, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Thematically? Could be either. Or sorcerers as Kuruld noted
Mechanically:
Psion - Uses Psi points to enhance their powers
Battlemind - Uses Psi points to enhance their powers
Ardent - Uses Psi points to enhance their powers
Monk - Has the option to use one of their movement powers at the same time they use an attack power
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2024-04-19, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.
Where do you fit in? (link fixed)
RedMage Prestige Class!
Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
"Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."
Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.
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2024-04-24, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Martial and Arcane have more ways to be flexible, "borrow" (especially Wands) and outright recover powers, but they tend to have a lot more support in general.
Divine they kind of tried to bake that in with Channel Divinity at the cost of being more resource-heavy. Holy Symbols similarly have the "no slot, but look how many of them assume you are a Cleric"
Primal on the other hand seemed to go all in on "this is similar but not the same."
And then PHB3 went with "this is not like the others' which leaves Monks and Runepriests in particular to lack synergy with their own sources.
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2024-05-01, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Seems like maybe monks and runepriests should have had their implement and weapon use switched. Especially since monks using implement powers means that their monk unarmed strike tends to not get used as such most of the time. Meanwhile, runepriests using weapons for everything even when it seems like some kind of implement should factor in feels pretty weird.
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2024-05-02, 10:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
I really wish they'd committed a bit more to symmetry... work on building good versions of the four roles for each of the power sources, rather than, say, including two martial strikers in the PH.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
There are almost 400,000 threads on this site. If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.
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2024-05-02, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
I can see it both ways. One side says the symmetry feels good, but the other side sees symmetry as limiting. Once you have *A* combo of power/role, one could feel compelled to rewrite a class concept that happens to fill the same combo into a gap, rather than respecting the unique potential of the class in a vacuum, or else introduce new classes in quads for all roles. Having ranger and rogue together in the same book shows that class/role combos are not limited to just one permutation, but that one could have a more freeform structure of classes in the grid, which is good for creative expansion.
Now, maybe Ranger should have been saved and been a hybrid power source like the Essentials variant or the Seeker, but I don't think the devs were ready for that in PHB1.
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2024-05-03, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-03, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Yeah, I feel like some of the "power source + role" stuff felt a bit forced.
In retrospect, I think that's one of the weaknesses of 4e - "here's a structure, let's push everything into it." I personally had hoped that fighters would end up with stronger at-wills and more of them, so that their gameplay was more like "choose the right move for the situation" while wizards leaned more on dailies or encounter powers. That would keep the same general structure, but allowing for more variation within it."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2024-05-03, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
Re: Class Power Source
Having the basic framework is good, but knowing how and when to deviate from it could have made the game better. Each role and each power source should have something that connects them so that it is identifiable that they are related. I feel like roles should have connections in effects (they can do similar kinds of things) whereas power sources should have connections in builds or causes (they go about things in similar ways even though the effects are different). 4e has a little bit of that with Channel Divinity for Divine classes and power points for Psionic classes, but not all of the sources are quite so clear cut and there are exceptions (see Runepriest and Monk). Something should tie the Fighter, Rogue, and Warlord together all as Martial characters, the Bard, Sorcerer, and Wizard together as Arcane characters, and the Barbarian, Druid, and Warden together as Primal characters.
Possibilities:
Martial: martial weapons, stances (usually 1 from class and 1 from subclass), maneuvers with points in place of regular encounter powers (maybe like 5e Battlemaster fighters)
Divine: channel divinity, domains
Arcane: Spell preparation, fewer at will, more daily, metamagic
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2024-05-03, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Class Power Source
Well generally what tied them together was their secondary roles - martial characters were all strikers as a secondary, so they did decent damage for whatever their primary was (and martial strikers generally were the most damaging). Primal characters were all defender-y in some way, and arcane classes were all controller-y, and divine were all leader-y.
So it wasn't a mechanic that bound them together, but rather the role they played."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2024-05-04, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
I think, if you had a player who was able to make decisions quickly on their turn, it would have little affect on balance to give them as many at-will attacks as they could manage. For a good player, that might even be a decent trade for not having martial dailies (which a lot of people objected to).
I suspect WotC limited them mostly because because many players only seem to be able to handle a limited number of options. It also is going to make many fighters look the same, after they have run out of Daily and Encounter powers.
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2024-05-05, 04:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Certain Darkest Dungeon heroes seem like they could have been good models for Martial Control. The Plague Doctor is probably the strongest one, and could share the "prepare terrible substance x times per day" mechanic with the executioner (which is from the Martial part of that class, I believe).
"Were you looking forward to showing off your hand to hand prowess? Well go to the Nine Hells, because it doesn't matter! We expect you to carry around more daggers than DIO to make full use of flurry of blows!"
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2024-05-06, 02:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class Power Source
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2024-05-06, 06:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-06, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Some of the flavor for Primal heroes is that they have the patronage of some spirit whose power they channel. This is most obvious with shaman where the spirit manifests as a creature on the battlefield, and the druid, where they take the spirit's form, but barbarians channel this power when raging and wardens have limited shape-changing (via their daily powers). Druids in 4e get an extra at-will power so that they can always have options both in caster form and beast form; one possible option for a power source distinction would be to give all Primal heroes some sort of manifestation of their spirit and then separate powers that are usable by the spirit and the hero.
Also, going to the original etymology of warlock as "oath-breaker" (that is breaking the covenant with God), they could be reflavored a bit to be that they stole power from a spirit (either through trickery or betrayal) rather than the current flavor of making a pact with an extra-planar entity (ironic given the origin of the term). This might given them access to effects that are usually Primal (because they are channelling the power from a spirit), but otherwise have the chassis of an Arcane class (since they imprisoned it with Arcane magic).
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2024-05-07, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class Power Source
Knight and Slayer aren't terrible or anything, but monotonous. It's like they did a Terence and Phillip "no this is a Fighter that spams basic attacks"
Battlemind and Ardent also seem to want to spam the same at-will*, and their dailies tend to tack on another Augment or otherwise have a similar stancelike "gain XYZ for this encounter"
*in their case, it's more that stuff like Brutal Barrage and Ire Strike tend to be better than most of their other options anyway.
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2024-05-08, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class Power Source
Pretty much; WOTC got player feedback that certain players enjoy having fewer options. This kind of player would likely play a Fighter or Rogue in earlier editions, so the 4.5 Fighter and Rogue were simplified to appeal to this kind of player. I think that didn't really work out, but that was the intent.
Yes, that. Well, Knight ended up pretty bad; Slayer and Thief are solid middle-of-the-road options.
Battlemind and Ardent also seem to want to spam the same at-will*, and their dailies tend to tack on another Augment or otherwise have a similar stancelike "gain XYZ for this encounter"Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!