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2024-05-03, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
You say lazy, I say efficient. All that text and metatext is already in the spell chapter so pointing a feature there makes a lot of sense.
Spells are also already benchmarked by class level in terms of relative power. It's not perfect by any means, but designers, players, and DMs can look at a feature that grants Nondetection and gauge whether that's truly worthwhile at 9th level when casters are getting it at 5th and half-casters at 7th, potentially multiple times per long rest even.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
You still have to check it case by case as spell power and impact varies widely so it's not saving any time. If the bench mark is "cherry pick" the sure but that doesn't function with isolated spell<not spells> features.
then you have to fight the "spells do what they say" head space to allow to function in the thematic sense.
Rune knights aren't using spells and they are easy to use. Soul knifes aren't using spells and you don't have much confusion and need to flip to an entirely different section to make it workable. Heck even Mercy monk get a revive that isn't just *cast* the spell that takes up less page space than the spell itself And doesn't bring local economics into consideration.
They shown that it's both possible *and* more streamline to just actual take the time to design proper features rather needing to go digging into the most bloated section just to see what's what.what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
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2024-05-03, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Level 9: Foil Discernment
You cannot be detected by magical sensors, and you are immune to magic that allows others to read your thoughts, determine whether you are lying or know your alignment.
To gain this benefit, you can't be unconscious.Last edited by Kane0; 2024-05-03 at 03:00 PM.
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2024-05-03, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I disagree; yes, within a given power band you might have to do some analysis of the individual effects, but in broad strokes it is in fact a timesaver. Anyone can look at something like Fireball or Dominate Person or Dimension Door at Tier 1 and know right away that it's too strong, and they should consider effects more in line with Burning Hands/Charm Person/Misty Step at those levels instead.
Putting aside that "spells do what they say" is a player admonition rather than DM or designer handcuffs - I don't see why that wouldn't apply to non-spell features too. Interpreting something open-ended might take a lot of discussion, but merely recognizing that it IS open-ended shouldn't.
Look, I'm not saying every single martial ability under the sun needs to be a spell. But something like Ancestral Guardian Barbarian saying "you can summon a spirit now! It can look around corners or the other side of a door etc for you and tells you what it sees/hears, and can also advise you on an immediate course of action" simply invoking Clairvoyance/Augury, does save a lot of text.Last edited by Psyren; 2024-05-03 at 03:09 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
I agree with all of this.
I think something like--- well, I just got back to my computer and see Kane0 posted something pretty spot on so something like that
Though I like Soul of Deceit because instead of making you blanket immune, you can still interact with the divination. So instead of someone not registering anything with Detect Thoughts, you can present false surface thoughts.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2024-05-03, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2024-05-03, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2024-05-03, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-03, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Of course it's saving text. If they want to give Clairvoyance and Augury to AG Barbarians without referencing the spell, how exactly would you propose they do it?
This is a different (tired) complaint than referencing spells in features.Last edited by Psyren; 2024-05-03 at 04:10 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
You mean spectral?
Challenge accepted!
Originally Posted by the book
At 10th level, you gain the ability to request information of your ancestors. By spending 1 minute concentrating you may ask one question which your ancestral spirits answer to the best of their ability, or request they relay to you what they can see and hear from a location that is familiar or obvious to you (such as around a corner or behind a door) within 1 mile.
After you use this ability, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long restLast edited by Kane0; 2024-05-03 at 04:47 PM.
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2024-05-03, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Yeah, that's the one. Swarmkeeper gets spectral bugs that do physical damage! Warlock summons a spectral tentacle! Spectral music note thing! Makes me miss the wild sourcebooks of 3.0. This class literally just uses chains and they're real chains. You have to carry fifty chains around to use your class features. You can't just manifest spectral chains proficiency bonus times per long rest!
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2024-05-03, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-05-03, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
So you completely omitted the Augury ability beyond "ask a question", including the stuff the DM needs to know (e.g. "circumstances that might change the outcome"), as well as multiple important details from Clairvoyance (the duration, the sensor/spirit being noticeable to creatures that can see invisibility, the fact that it uses your own senses to relay information, the fact that you have to choose which sense it uses instead of getting both as you wrote it, etc.) Challenge failed.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Here is a first pass over for AGs lv 10 feature. Needs a polish and probably a few reworks but IMO better than "here some spells"
Consult the spirits
At 10th level, you gain the ability to maintain a constant connection with your ancestral spirits. If you spend at least a minute in communion they can provide you with guidance for up to 10 minutes in one of the following forms:
-Farsight. The sprits provide limited foresight for your immediate plans. They can provide guidance if the results will be favorable or detrimental but cannot foresee elements based on the actions of the living.
-through the veil. The sprits whisk a part of your soul away and allow you to witness the world from their eyes. Choose a location that is well known to you or a location you or one in your immediate area that you can describe. While your movement is hampered to a few feet from that location, you have advantage on all perception checks as the spirits assist your senses.
Honor of the fallen. You and one other creatures of your choice within 30 feet can recover a number of hit dice equal to your wisdom modifier. When doing so each creature can immediately expend one and recover the maximum amounts.
Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again.what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
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2024-05-03, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Ooh I like the Honor the Fallen portion, thats a nice addition
Oh yeah, missed the duration and senses, that'd be an extra line.
Personally I think the DM would be able to handle answering questions though, and this way you arent limited to certain kinds of questions/responses (though does assume good faith on the part of the DM)Last edited by Kane0; 2024-05-03 at 06:31 PM.
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2024-05-03, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot
Nerull | Wee Jas | Olidammara | Erythnul | Hextor | Corellon Larethian | Lolth | The Deep Ones
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2024-05-03, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-05-03, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
You missed the following:
- Favorable AND detrimental outcomes
- Neither favorable nor detrimental
- The definition of "immediate" (i.e. next 30 minutes)
- The definition of "plans" (i.e. one action/course of action)
- Can no longer see past obstacles or into enclosures
- No more counterplay from the sensor
- Hampered movement for some strange reason (Clairvoyance doesn't interfere with your personal movement or ability to perceive, not sure why you're adding restrictions)
And then you started weirdly adding things like the healing and advantage.
And in exchange for all that loss of clarity, outright functionality, and the weird additions that you felt like I guess? You went from 60 words for the ability to over 200, and still to have need actual Clairvoyance and Augury spells in the spells chapter.
I remain unconvinced.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2024-05-03, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
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2024-05-03, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS
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2024-05-03, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Also still needing to adjust the spell for it to fit with an extra line or two anyways. Fey Ranger does it too, omitting concentration and changing the duration of the summon. Feels like it defeats the purpose somewhat
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2024-05-03, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2024-05-03, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
On spell duplication for subclass features.
I don't mind them when they are fit for purpose, things like concentration and components can get clunky.
But the less the effect uses the spell rules, and the more specific the effect's theme, the less it benefits to use a spell.
Oh, and at least if we are going book design, maybe avoid spells that aren't in the PHB, otherwise it loses out on the saving text by requiring a whole other book for the subclass to function.My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-05-04, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2024-05-04, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Figured I'd chime in on the spell vs class feature ease of use thing.
If you are using a physical copy of the books, with physical character sheets, at a physical table, it's gonna be pretty annoying flipping from the front to the back to double check how your feature works a lot, and it's pretty likely you don't have the exact text of every spell on your character sheet handy, either. (Maybe you invest in one of those decks of spell flashcards, and you bring the ones you expect to use.)
If you are playing on a VTT or you have the books/sheets on a laptop or tablet or similar, you're gonna have hypertext, or a search feature, or some other way to reference that information quickly.
They're different experiences, and I think there's less friction in having to reference a spell elsewhere in the latter case. I'm no professional, but I'd think it's easier to adapt physical games to digital resources than try to design under the assumption of digital speed and backport it to physical-only play.
The other thing is that, with class-feature-that-is-just-a-spell, tweaks to the spell affect every class that gets the spell. If I am a new/homebrew class that gets Bless from a special source, and Bless is nerfed due to other classes, that affects my homebrew class too. It also means that my Bless can't stack with normal Bless, which is probably desirable in the case of Bless (see how everyone reacted to Peace Cleric), but may or may not be the design intent. Having a similar-but-not-the-same class feature means it can stack, but it also means that balance changes happen in a more granular way. (Granted, most of those balance changes are going to happen before a book hits print anyway.)
Either way, I don't think it's straightforwardly better or worse.
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2024-05-04, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
On this, I want to be clear that my concerns on a spell needing to be either in the PHB or the sourcebook the class is in isn't so much reference as finance. Say if we use a subclass that references a spell in Xanathar's for its function, now from bookeeping, I am already familiar with using several books, but if I didn't have Xanathar's for whatever reason, I would need to aquire it.
For us homebrew people, it is less of an issue, unless we want to share our material and want to be of use to more people we know what books we have access to.My sig is something witty.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2024-05-04, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Great post. I do think that, while it may be easier to adapt a physical game resource to digital play, it's easier to generate revenue from digital customers who can be sold VTT subscriptions and, for lack of a better word, microtransactions. So while it's easier to turn a book into a VTT resource than vice versa, designing digital-forward is more likely to align with Hasbro's corporate priorities, as depressing as that is.
In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.
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2024-05-05, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?
Do you know of an instance where a subclass references a spell that is neither in core nor the book the subclass itself is in? I could be wrong, but I'm not actually aware of them doing that. Looking at the Lunar Sorcerer for example, all 16 spells it gives you are in core, and things like the Fey Wanderer from Tasha's reference spells that are either in core or in Tasha's. (e.g. their Fey Reinforcements feature that grants Summon Fey says it is "(a spell in chapter 3.)"
The closest I can think of to this happening is the Artificer, which had spells from Xanathar's despite itself not appearing in Xanathar's, but even if you didn't have that book you could simply use core and Tasha's and have a near-complete loadout without having a big gap in your features.
I genuinely don't see how it's any more difficult for a martial to need the spells chapter to look up a couple of their features, than it is to play a spellcaster and need to go to the spells chapter considerably more frequently. And if spell flashcards are indeed the meatspace solution, just use them for the former too. "I'm an Ancestral Guardian Barbarian, could you hand me the Augury and Clairvoyance flashcards from your spells deck to keep in front of me" seems to me to be a reasonable request if looking up those two spells in the book occasionally is truly onerous.
I'd argue that, to the extent this even happens in the live game, that's a feature rather than a bug. Referencing a spell means the devs can have a list of every class or subclass that gets that spell, which is information they'd need to have for the casters that get it anyway, so they can keep in mind "oh right, {martial subclass} gets this too" before making any balance changes. Again though, I'm not actually aware of them doing this.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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