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Thread: A thread of loose ends
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2024-05-10, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
But even this, I feel like, glosses over the details. What's the procedure here? How do they find his soul among the many? Is whoever is actually in charge of torturing Nale's soul or whatever going to just go "Oh, okay" if Sabine asks for it for the IFCC? Do they carry that much weight? I don't know.
(I think there are quite a few reasons we won't see Nale, and the practical questions are more of a footnote to the bigger point that there's no place for him in this story anymore.)
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2024-05-10, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
I do not disagree. I only wish to recall that before the dramatic ending of the Godsmoot, there was no plot-relevant reason to go to Firmament. Before Durkon got vamped, if anyone would have suggested Firmament was on the list of plot-relevant locations they would have met with similar arguments.
As of now there is no reason to go to the Astral Fortress. Things will change. Will they change in such a way that The Astral Fortress becomes a necessary stop? I don't know. But I know that one could cherry pick postings on this forum about what The Giant would not do, only to see it done!
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2024-05-10, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
Except, you know, the two prophecies saying that Durkon would return home posthumously / bringing death and destruction which were introduced early on. There's also just obvious dramatic value in going to the hometown of one of your main characters that doesn't exist for an fortress in the middle of nowhere with nothing of value inside it.
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2024-05-10, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
We have similar, (less specific but similar,) foreshadowing of the Astral Tower. How many pointed to Thor's statement, "But it probably won't come up," as a sure sign that it will come up and be important?
And how do you know there is nothing of value in the fortress? Nobody knew about Thor's blessed hammer and gear in the temple of Firmament, until Durkon unlocked the secret hidey-place. But there it was.
Finally, if Durkon died in the final battle to save Belkar from his fate, the party might have brought his body home for a proper burial in the tomb with his father. We'd have weeped like a 20 year old bride at the wealthy octogenarian's funeral in that panel of the denouement. There was no plot-relevant reason for vampire Durkon to go there, except that that was what the author wanted.
Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that your reasoning is not as conclusive as you might wish.
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2024-05-10, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
See, I saw the "it probably won't come up" as a joke about how the Astral Fortress will not matter. It was an excuse to buy the Order time in the race for Girard's gate and a way for Xykon to think he'd secured his phylactery and that's likely the extent of it's importance.
Because we know the thing the Fortress exists to protect is not actually at the Fortress.
If you don't factor in Durkon's section of 'On the Origin of PCs' which reveals the prophecy that he would return home bearing death and destruction that got him exiled, sure.
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2024-05-10, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
Imean, those are all reasons that it's not impossible for the Astral Fortress to appear again or even be a setting they go to, sure. But none of that is a reason that the Astral Fortress is a loose end. Because, again, if the story were to end without ever revisiting it, then that would not create any issues because based on everything we know, it's already resolved. The phylactery is the only known thing supposed to be there and we know it really isn't there, Redcloak has it. Tied up nice and neat. Compare this to Elan's plan for Tarquin - if we never revisit that, if the story ends and we never find out what it was or that hebhas been deposed or killed or imprisoned or anything, that's not resolved. That is a loose thread.
The Astral Fortress, currently, based on everything we know, is not a loose end. It's not impossible for the story to go back there, but in a loose end thread, it doesn't belong. Not anymore than them possibly going back to the Oracle does. Because at this point in the story, that bit is already resolved.
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2024-05-10, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
I agree. It is not a loose end. And it is not necessary that anyone go there based on what we know now.
I suppose my objection is rooted in general tropes.
In who-done-it mysteries, the killer is almost always confronted with the facts in front of the surviving cast and confesses. Case closed.
In romances the denouement is almost as long as the story as the happy details of everyone's life after the story is painfully recorded with smiley-face O's and heart-dotted I's.
In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.
Sauron in LotR
Emperor Palpatine in RotJ and again in RoS
The Horned King in The Black Cauldron
The White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe
I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed. So, while I am not betting on the Astral Fortress, I don't want to rule it out either.
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2024-05-10, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
I can see that, but this isn't that sort of fantasy story. Xykon isn't Sauron and he isn't Palpatine, he's not an evil overlord sitting on his throne waiting for the heroes to come get him while his henchmen do all the fighting. The existence of the Snarl changes the calculus, the strongest position for Xykon is at the final gate with the Snarl in his grasp, and he'd only have to retreat back to the Astral Fortress if he failed.
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2024-05-10, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
As detailed below, I question your assessment of these tropes.
In who-done-it mysteries, the killer is almost always confronted with the facts in front of the surviving cast and confesses. Case closed.
In romances the denouement is almost as long as the story as the happy details of everyone's life after the story is painfully recorded with smiley-face O's and heart-dotted I's.
In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.
Sauron in LotR
Emperor Palpatine in RotJ and again in RoS
The Horned King in The Black Cauldron
The White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe
1: LOTR: Not a direct combat confrontation, which OOTS might not fully resolve with but will definitely involve.
2: Star Wars: Betrayed by an abused ally (possible, but doesn't really need the OOTS in particular here. That's an entire plotline contained within Team Evil right now).
3: Horned King: I only read a couple books and watched the extremely condensed Disney cartoon movie, so I honestly don't understand your point here.
4: Literally God does it for the heroes by the end (unlikely, even though it is Thor's plan).
I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed. So, while I am not betting on the Astral Fortress, I don't want to rule it out either."Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays."-Arthur Dent, The Hitchhiker's Guide
"I had a normal day once. It was a Thursday." -Will Bailey, The West Wing
Roy will be Xykon's Final Boss
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2024-05-10, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
The romance and mystery examples are to support the idea that stories in a certain genre tend towards specific sorts of endings. The detective breaks down the mystery and confronts the killer, the starstruck lovers get a big moment of romantic catharsis, that sort of thing, and then arguing that the fantasy equivalent is confronting the big evil bad guy in his dark fortress.
I think that's a flawed argument, but it's not saying that OOTS is a romance or whodunnit
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2024-05-10, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
The examples of the tropes are not meant to be reflective of anything in the comic. They are illustrations of my arguments. They show how tropes can define a genre, or a genera's readership can come to expect and even anticipate certain things.
A perfect example of the fantasy trope I wrote about appears in Utterly Dwarfed. Party down, enemy prematurely gloating, the most powerless member of the party does something incredible, good guys win.
Also, Dungeon Crawlin' Fools: surrounded, sword shattered, things looking bad. Useless gesture of outrage results in unexpected victory.
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2024-05-10, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
She can be very persuasive. It is part of the succubus schtick.
I am one who is not interested in seeing Nale again. Laurin did us all a favor.
RotK on film did just that. \
In the words of my son: Dad, is the movie over yet?
Crap, I just realized that this was over 20 years ago.
She does have connections, yes.
Ya don't say.
Xykon is a 13 year old kid whose Sorcerer PC leveled up way too fast and way too high for his emotional maturity level.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2024-05-11, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
The enemy in that instance, you'll recall, celebrate their momentary triumph in a plainly-furnished rental meeting hall to which they have no special connection (indeed, their heroic prisoner steers them to it to minimize the harm they can do in establishing a base), showing that even a perfect example of the trope can take place just about anywhere. It may need to have a dais, though.
Last edited by Rollin; 2024-05-11 at 01:14 AM.
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2024-05-11, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-11, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
I'm pretty sure flamebaiting is against the RULES, Brian!
I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed.
…and is at his weakest, yes. Technically, he only ever meant to set foot in there again if his current body was destroyed!
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2024-05-11, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
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2024-05-11, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
I'll politely disagree there. Yes, he's just suffered his biggest defeat in some time, but his opponents bled closer to dry. Everyone is rather certain that he can trivially win the battle at the Gates if he bothers, and he only really loses in the end because he bothers to focus on scoring that cheap win instead of intercepting the weird little people with hairy feet which would be even easier. And even then, what seals the deal is really a Gollum-driven fluke.
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2024-05-11, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
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2024-05-11, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-11, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
Sure. But if we extend even that much of "on the cusp of victory" to Xykon, it would be as they are about to complete the ritual on the Gate, which isn't at The Astral Fortress, so it still fails there regardless. If Xykon retreats to the Astral Fortress (which i maintain he has zero reason to do, unless his phylactery is destroyed and he is aware of this and he is about to be destroyed and still has enough high level spells to run, in which case it's still nigh-impossible for anyone else to follow him), then he is clearly not on the cusp of victory nor in his strongest position. In fact, it would be quite far from the cusp of victory.
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2024-05-11, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-11, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
Again, I do not disagree, but...
Spoiler: Hypothetical Scenario Which Is Definitely Never Going To Happen In Comic But Could.
Xykon discovers the switcheroo and tries to kill Redcloak. The Oots tries to save RC.
Xykon says, "You may have stolen my gate and my phylactery, but in this dungeon I have discovered the secret of the rifts. Soon I will be creating them in the homes of the gods themselves, starting with the plane of The Dark One. And you, Wrong Eye, I shall save just long enough to see me crowned chief of the gods before I end your suffering by destroying you and your entire race!
Teleport!"Last edited by brian 333; 2024-05-11 at 06:46 PM.
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2024-05-11, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
Yeah. It feels like the only thing that might induce an epiphany in Redcloak, having whatever future civilization the goblins end up building not be defined as a slave state founded on the ruins of a mostly noble city they destroyed is probably a necessary thing for the ending, and having Redcloak build his entire future in the shadow of a growing rift that threatens to destroy everything feels like too big of a set-up to not fire.
However it happens I hope Jirix is up to the task of evacuating the city because boy, if he doesn't a lot of people are going to be annihilated.
Credit where it's due, you've found basically the only situation where it would make sense. But I still don't see the actual advantage of this beyond "hey, this way we get to see what Xykon's astral fortress is!", the drama here could all be done equally well in the Final Dungeon and shifting the location either requires a detour to actually get to the new location or it happens instantly, in which case what was the point?
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2024-05-12, 04:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
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2024-05-12, 05:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-12, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-12, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
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2024-05-12, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
I agree, for somewhat different reasons. The four-quiddity thing is going to be essential - the fact that they can’t win without getting the goblins on side is at the thematic heart of OOTS - but Thor’s “continually patch any rifts that show up using the Dark One’s help” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) plan is not going to work because it’s too much of a stopgap. It solves the current problem, but not the permanent one.
My theory is that the resolution will involve The Dark One getting to make some permanent contribution to the structure of the world in a way that makes it a four-quiddity world (i.e. no more rifts ever). I don’t know how exactly that would work, but it sems like the resolution that would be consistent with the strip’s themes, integrating the Dark One and goblinoids as equal partners in the world.
Thor says they always intentionally lock themselves out of further changes when they finalize the creation process - but in a dire enough situation, that’s something that could change.
What I mean is that I’ve feared for a while that the Rift over Gobbotopia is going to end up swallowing Gobbotopia, and that will be the big moment that prompts Redcloak working with the heroes. It would be the exact illustration of what’s been now pointed out to him several times - that he’s put proving himself right over the well-being of goblins - if his very real success in materially improving their lives was destroyed by his continued pursuit of the Plan. And he does care about goblinoids - Oona recognizes that there’s a real internal conflict there - so this could be something big enough to cause major remorse and a change of perspective.Last edited by LadyEowyn; 2024-05-12 at 08:39 AM.
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2024-05-12, 09:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A thread of loose ends
The Horned King
Spoiler: The Book of Threewas killed by Gwydion while Taran was unconscious. So...no?Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-05-12, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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