A thread of loose ends

[BloodSquirrel]

Except, you know, the two prophecies saying that Durkon would return home posthumously / bringing death and destruction which were introduced early on. There's also just obvious dramatic value in going to the hometown of one of your main characters that doesn't exist for an fortress in the middle of nowhere with nothing of value inside it.

Also, there's a big difference between "Characters who are starting a new story arc will go to a place they haven't been before" and "The climax of a story will suddenly shift location to a place with no obvious dramatic significance." Usually, when the Oots goes to a place as part of an adventure, they finish the adventure there before leaving. But I doubt that anyone would have argued it was unlikely for the Order to go to anywhere in particular as part of a side adventure between gates.

The better analogy here would be "Before it turned out that all of Girard's descendants were dead there was no plot-relevant reason to move the climax of the story arc to the Empire of Tears... and so they didn't."

[Metastachydium]

Sure. But if we extend even that much of "on the cusp of victory" to Xykon, it would be as they are about to complete the ritual on the Gate, which isn't at The Astral Fortress, so it still fails there regardless. If Xykon retreats to the Astral Fortress (which i maintain he has zero reason to do, unless his phylactery is destroyed and he is aware of this and he is about to be destroyed and still has enough high level spells to run, in which case it's still nigh-impossible for anyone else to follow him), then he is clearly not on the cusp of victory nor in his strongest position. In fact, it would be quite far from the cusp of victory.

Sure. It's also, incidentally, a good thing that we have been in agreement as far as that is concerned from the get-go.

Yeah. It feels like the only thing that might induce an epiphany in Redcloak, having whatever future civilization the goblins end up building not be defined as a slave state founded on the ruins of a mostly noble city they destroyed is probably a necessary thing for the ending, and having Redcloak build his entire future in the shadow of a growing rift that threatens to destroy everything feels like too big of a set-up to not fire.

However it happens I hope Jirix is up to the task of evacuating the city because boy, if he doesn't a lot of people are going to be annihilated.

Well. As someone who's very uncomfortable at a number of levels with the current state of affairs as regards the Azurite/Goblinoid conflict, despite rooting for Project Gobbotopia to succeed in a comparable number of ways, I must concede that point has a punch to it.

[Peelee]

Sure. It's also, incidentally, a good thing that we have been in agreement as far as that is concerned from the get-go.

Well, i do rarely have reason to take issue with most vegetation i see.

[MartianInvader]

Actually, i have a very simple rebuttal on how it is exceedingly unlikely that even that could happen.

Namely, is there any reason to think that Xykon hasn't Cloistered the Astral Fortress?

Well, if Cloistering the fortress prevents Xykon from getting there, that would be a good reason to think he didn't do it, right?

And if it *doesn't* prevent him from getting there (like, he can port to a quarter mile away and fly in), then it doesn't really stop the scenario from happening, right?

[Peelee]

Well, if Cloistering the fortress prevents Xykon from getting there, that would be a good reason to think he didn't do it, right?

It prevents Xykon (and everyone else) from getting there though the vast majority of magical means. Nothing indicates it would prevent his soul from going back to the phylactery if his body was destroyed. So there's every reason to believe he did it and no reason to believe he didn't.

And if it *doesn't* prevent him from getting there (like, he can port to a quarter mile away and fly in), then it doesn't really stop the scenario from happening, right?

Going by how he described the fortress, i highly doubt anyone, even Xykon, can just "fly in". And even if he could, again, how would anyone follow him? Teleport is an escape spell, and nobody has ever demonstrated any ability to follow a teleporter in the strip to date.

And, again, no reason for Xykon to go there even if he thinks he is about to he defeated and wants to run somewhere else when he can go to any random spot anywhere to recuperate just as well, since, again, teleport is a "get out of danger free" card.

[No good @ names]

Well. As someone who's very uncomfortable at a number of levels with the current state of affairs as regards the Azurite/Goblinoid conflict, despite rooting for Project Gobbotopia to succeed in a comparable number of ways, I must concede that point has a punch to it.

Yes good point.


Redcloak’s arc is unlikely to be resolved by anything other than a major dolphin attack on the bridge. Chomp chomp chomp!

2. it's really just a bunch of background characters (albeit of the divine sort) clearing up the mess in their stead.

Yep, I agree. I don’t think Rich is going to end decades of work with a near literal dei ex machina.

My impression on the story and writing is that Rich likes one-a-one fights, especially when it involves Xykon and Roy.

As others have said, there’s no reason why Roy and Xykon can’t have a climatic duel at Kragor’s (Serini’s?) Gate, and no narrative reason for it to be at the Astral Fortress. Any other reason for anywhere other than the Gate is pretty weak, it could only really serve to seperate Roy from the rest of the Order, and Rich could achieve that somehow at Kragor’s Gate.

Will Roy fight Xykon one on one at some point? Probably, otherwise the Spell Splinter will be wasted foreshadowing and Elan will cry. And if he didn’t use it Roy will not be able to rub it in Eugene’s face that a fighter stopped epic level magic.

[Kish]

Teleport is an escape spell, and nobody has ever demonstrated any ability to follow a teleporter in the strip to date.

Psions provably exist. Trace Teleport is a psionic ability. There's no reason to think Rich house ruled it out of the comic.

(Not that Xykon's astral fortress is a loose end in any way; I look forward to reading confused "wait why did Rich never do anything with Xykon's astral fortress?" posts after the comic has ended.)

[Peelee]

Psions provably exist. Trace Teleport is a psionic ability. There's no reason to think Rich house ruled it out of the comic.

(Not that Xykon's astral fortress is a loose end in any way; I look forward to reading confused "wait why did Rich never do anything with Xykon's astral fortress?" posts after the comic has ended.)

Fair, but given the lack of psionics opposing Xykon, one showing up just to trace his teleport would be roughly on the same level as Xykon going to the fortress - useless except it happening for the sake of it happening.

[MartianInvader]

It prevents Xykon (and everyone else) from getting there though the vast majority of magical means. Nothing indicates it would prevent his soul from going back to the phylactery if his body was destroyed. So there's every reason to believe he did it and no reason to believe he didn't.


Going by how he described the fortress, i highly doubt anyone, even Xykon, can just "fly in". And even if he could, again, how would anyone follow him? Teleport is an escape spell, and nobody has ever demonstrated any ability to follow a teleporter in the strip to date.

And, again, no reason for Xykon to go there even if he thinks he is about to he defeated and wants to run somewhere else when he can go to any random spot anywhere to recuperate just as well, since, again, teleport is a "get out of danger free" card.

You're arguing against my examples without addressing my overall point, which is this: I find it highly unlikely, for both practical and egotistical reasons, that Xykon would create a fortress that he himself was unable to access without destroying his body first.

[Metastachydium]

Fair, but given the lack of psionics opposing Xykon, one showing up just to trace his teleport would be roughly on the same level as Xykon going to the fortress - useless except it happening for the sake of it happening.

And that's where you are wrong! Just wait for Laurin, co-possessed by Thog (courtesy of the IFCC) and the Snarl (courtesy of the Snarl) to show and spice things up a tad!

[Peelee]

You're arguing against my examples without addressing my overall point, which is this: I find it highly unlikely, for both practical and egotistical reasons, that Xykon would create a fortress that he himself was unable to access without destroying his body first.

Why? If he can access it any other way, then so can others, which defeats the entire purpose of the fortress. The only reason he'd have to access it would be to move the phylactery somewhere else, in which case he can access it easier than anyone else by the way phylacteries work.

Or, i suppose, he could want to put something else there as well, but more things being there only increases the odds people would want to look for them, which again decreases the value of the fortress. Doubly so when he is clearly capable of creating it so he can do it again for other things if he really needs to.

Anyway, fact is there's no practical or egotistical reason for him to ever want to go there unless he wants to move the phylactery out, in which case he has a foolproof and simple way to get directly to it which is impossible for anyone else to follow.

And that's where you are wrong! Just wait for Laurin, co-possessed by Thog (courtesy of the IFCC) and the Snarl (courtesy of the Snarl) to show and spice things up a tad!

Oh come on. Those are all just Redcloak's neice at different points in the time stream.

[brian 333]

Oh come on. Those are all just Redcloak's neice at different points in the time stream.

It all makes sense now! Redcloak's Niece is the monster that invaded Xykon's Astral Fortress, and she will reveal herself as the Terrasque as the Stickworld collapses. She will then eat The Snarl and become the most real of all the gods but with Laurin's psyonic powers.

What an epic beginning to the next thirty-year Stickverse based comic about Elan's Happy Ending!

[Peelee]

It all makes sense now! Redcloak's Niece is the monster that invaded Xykon's Astral Fortress, and she will reveal herself as the Terrasque as the Stickworld collapses. She will then eat The Snarl and become the most real of all the gods but with Laurin's psyonic powers.

What an epic beginning to the next thirty-year Stickverse based comic about Elan's Happy Ending!

Now we're getting somewhere!

[Provengreil]

Oh come on. Those are all just Redcloak's neice at different points in the time stream.

Souffle girl?

[Precure]

As others have said, there’s no reason why Roy and Xykon can’t have a climatic duel at Kragor’s (Serini’s?) Gate, and no narrative reason for it to be at the Astral Fortress.

It's main fuction would be dividing Roy and Xykon from the rest of the order and others who may involve themselves unto their fight.

[Errorname]

It's main fuction would be dividing Roy and Xykon from the rest of the order and others who may involve themselves unto their fight.

For one, there are much easier ways to arrange a duel between two characters than that, and also no it wouldn't, because there's basically no way for Roy to actually get to the Fortress unassisted.

[Lord Torath]

Souffle girl?

"Your chin and his nose; the two of you could fence!"

[pita]

I might be dumb here or referring to something else, but I thought Minrah's secret is that she's gay and dwarves are very traditionalist so she hides it - which is why Thor makes sure to tell her it's ok by him, because he's not a homophobe.

[Peelee]

I might be dumb here or referring to something else, but I thought Minrah's secret is that she's gay and dwarves are very traditionalist so she hides it - which is why Thor makes sure to tell her it's ok by him, because he's not a homophobe.

Dwarves are very Lawful, but even if we called that traditional, why would the author (especially this author) choose to have an entire race be homophobic as a purely obscure background detail that many people may not even pick up on?

[Kardwill]

My headcanon is that she wrote self-insert romance fanfics about Thor when she was a teen, and has been worrying over people being judgemental about it ever since she became a cleric ^^

But I don't see it being a loose end. Minrah's secret sounds deeply personal, and it is hers only to share or keep, after all. All that matters is that she feared others' reactions, and Thor is completely cool about it and won't rat her out. It establishes him as an overall nice person far more efficiently than his alignment would ever do. :)

[Lord Torath]

I might be dumb here or referring to something else, but I thought Minrah's secret is that she's gay and dwarves are very traditionalist so she hides it - which is why Thor makes sure to tell her it's ok by him, because he's not a homophobe.

Durkon's mother tells him she wants him to bring home a nice girl or boy - she doesn't seem to care which. That seems to imply the dwarves are not particularly judgemental of homosexuals. Have to see if I can track down that strip. - Edit: See DM91365's post below, where he found the strip.

As far as Minrah's secret, I don't recall any hints other than it's something she doesn't want Durkon to know about.

[brian 333]

I always thought Minrah's Secret was a blank space into which readers could write their own hangups. The absence of a reveal would be necessary, in this case.

And it can't be that bad; we've already had a character admit to being skilled in macrame.

[Peelee]

I always thought Minrah's Secret was a blank space into which readers could write their own hangups. The absence of a reveal would be necessary, in this case.

And it can't be that bad; we've already had a character admit to being skilled in macrame.

Seconded, except the macrame part. You may allow such perversions but don't expect everyone to agree.

Have to see if I can track down that strip.

Cheater.

[dmc91356]

Sneaky, sure, but I took the bait:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html

[Lord Torath]

Cheater.

Sneaky, sure, but I took the bait:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html

Many thanks! I knew it was one of the flashbacks, but I didn't have time to go through the entirety of Utterly Dwarfed.

[gbaji]

If, at Azure City, someone had suggested the party would go to Firmament, the suggestion would have met similar resistance. There would have been no narrative point to it. But things happened, and then it became a narrative necessity.

Been commented on, but I'll add as well: There's a monumental difference between locations and action/resolution sites being added into a story along the way, and doing so in what is certainly the Final Act of the story.

While at Azure City we could have said the exact same things about the likelihood of the party traveling to all of the four locations on the Western Continent related to Girard's gate (Sandsedge, incorrect gate location, Bleedingham, then finally Girard's pyramid). Yet, because we were still early in the story, and had multiple steps left to go, new locations can (should!) be added along the way. Same deal with the "adventures in the North" part of the story. Who could have predicted traveling to Tinkertown, then then Pinnacle Peak, then Firmament, before finally arriving at Kraagar's gate?

Each of these were places (and adventures) along the way to an endpoint (both physically and narratively). But in this case, we're reaching the end point not just of this Act, but of the entire story. You can't add new places to go with new clues/resolutions to be gained, since you're at the destination that all of those things earlier in the story pointed to. Now is time/place to tie up the loose ends. And let's not forget that the "end" we're tying up here is "kill Xykon and destroy his phylactery". The entire point of the side story of Redcloak swapping the phylactery is specifically to give a narratively reasonable explanation as to why both are in the same location when the Order faces Team Evil in the Final Dungeon (otherwise folks would be asking "why did Xykon have his philactery there, especially after the close call in the Azure City Throne room?"). The entire story purpose for the astral fortress is to provde explanation as to why Roy will be able to kill him and destroy his philactery right here and right now and *not* have to chase him down to a second location.

Why waste all of that build up?

In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.
Sauron in LotR
Emperor Palpatine in RotJ and again in RoS

I'll point out that the Fellowship did not have to step foot into Barad-Dur to defeat Sauron directly after The Ring was destroyed. So Sauraon was not defeated in his center of power.

Similarly, the SW heroes did not have to chase Palpatine to his throne room on Coruscant (or his secret sith lab/temple on Exigol) to defeat him either.

The exact parallel in this case is Xykon being killed in the Final Dungeon while attempting to complete The Ritual (that he thinks will grant him ultimate power). Both examples actually make a strong case as to why he will not retreat to the astral fortress.

The Horned King in The Black Cauldron
The White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe

Don't really remember too much detail about either, but I think others have posted as to how these aren't really accurate analogies to the situation at hand either.

I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed. So, while I am not betting on the Astral Fortress, I don't want to rule it out either.

Maybe... the location where he's gong to do his greatest evil and enslave the world to his will (ie: Final Gate)?

My theory is that the resolution will involve The Dark One getting to make some permanent contribution to the structure of the world in a way that makes it a four-quiddity world (i.e. no more rifts ever). I don’t know how exactly that would work, but it sems like the resolution that would be consistent with the strip’s themes, integrating the Dark One and goblinoids as equal partners in the world.

I actually agree with your thinking. Thor's plan is just a stop gap. The problem is that I thiink it's already been stated that the only way to make the entire world four quiddity strong would be to destroy this one, and make a new one with The Dark One participating. And I strongly doubt that's going to be the actual story resolution.

My assumption is that the snarl and the world in the rift will be explored (narratively and possibly physically as well), and provide some alternative solution that has not yet been presented. The nature of the snarl and the world in the rift are probably the biggest loose ends out there, and have plenty of unknown characteristics (sufficient to drive any size plot truck through), and could therefore be used for this purpose/resolution.

I have a few theories about that, but those fall more into prediction and not merely identification of the loose ends themselves. I will observe that it's pretty good writing to use one loose end to assist in resolving another, so there's pretty strong narrative reason to do things this way.

[brian 333]

Been commented on, but I'll add as well: There's a monumental difference between locations and action/resolution sites being added into a story along the way, and doing so in what is certainly the Final Act of the story.

While at Azure City we could have said the exact same things about the likelihood of the party traveling to all of the four locations on the Western Continent related to Girard's gate (Sandsedge, incorrect gate location, Bleedingham, then finally Girard's pyramid). Yet, because we were still early in the story, and had multiple steps left to go, new locations can (should!) be added along the way. Same deal with the "adventures in the North" part of the story. Who could have predicted traveling to Tinkertown, then then Pinnacle Peak, then Firmament, before finally arriving at Kraagar's gate?

Each of these were places (and adventures) along the way to an endpoint (both physically and narratively). But in this case, we're reaching the end point not just of this Act, but of the entire story. You can't add new places to go with new clues/resolutions to be gained, since you're at the destination that all of those things earlier in the story pointed to. Now is time/place to tie up the loose ends. And let's not forget that the "end" we're tying up here is "kill Xykon and destroy his phylactery". The entire point of the side story of Redcloak swapping the phylactery is specifically to give a narratively reasonable explanation as to why both are in the same location when the Order faces Team Evil in the Final Dungeon (otherwise folks would be asking "why did Xykon have his philactery there, especially after the close call in the Azure City Throne room?"). The entire story purpose for the astral fortress is to provde explanation as to why Roy will be able to kill him and destroy his philactery right here and right now and *not* have to chase him down to a second location.

Why waste all of that build up?



I'll point out that the Fellowship did not have to step foot into Barad-Dur to defeat Sauron directly after The Ring was destroyed. So Sauraon was not defeated in his center of power.

Similarly, the SW heroes did not have to chase Palpatine to his throne room on Coruscant (or his secret sith lab/temple on Exigol) to defeat him either.

The exact parallel in this case is Xykon being killed in the Final Dungeon while attempting to complete The Ritual (that he thinks will grant him ultimate power). Both examples actually make a strong case as to why he will not retreat to the astral fortress.



Don't really remember too much detail about either, but I think others have posted as to how these aren't really accurate analogies to the situation at hand either.



Maybe... the location where he's gong to do his greatest evil and enslave the world to his will (ie: Final Gate)?

The irony here is that these exact same arguments could have been used to prove the story would end at the end of DCF, or to give a better ending to War and XPs.

The entire story could have ended in either of those two places with minimal changes, mostly having to do with not including new reasons to not end the story there.

I do not insist the story must go to the Astral Fortress, but I do resist the idea that it can't. There was actually no reason the story had to go to Azure City either, before Paladin Blues.

[Peelee]

The irony here is that these exact same arguments could have been used to prove the story would end at the end of DCF, or to give a better ending to War and XPs.

The entire story could have ended in either of those two places with minimal changes, mostly having to do with not including new reasons to not end the story there.

I do not insist the story must go to the Astral Fortress, but I do resist the idea that it can't. There was actually no reason the story had to go to Azure City either, before Paladin Blues.

Imean, I've never said it can't. IIRC I've openly acknowledged that yes, it is possible, because it's more than a bit silly to think it's not.

There's a difference between can't and won't. As i and others have said, you're claiming similar arguments could have been made at other points, which is objectively wrong, because those points weren't wrapping everything up. This is the final act. The other points weren't. Stories have structures and you're claiming that the rules for building a foundation are the same as the rules for building a roof. The things that may or may not happen in the beginning or middle are different than things that may or may not happen at the end.