What work cemented the visual look of western dragons?

[Ionathus]

Was it Smaug? I'm guessing it's Smaug.

The poem A Visit From St. Nicholas is often said to be the codifier for many of the popular culture assumptions about Santa - specifically his visual look, his behaviors, and how he delivers his gifts. Before then, people had broadly ranging opinions and a lot of different conceptions, but afterwards basically everybody "agreed" that, at least in the modern sense, he was a fat, jolly old man with a white beard who wore red. Yes, I'm oversimplifying but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Did something similar happen to western dragons? I feel like the modern conception is almost exclusively "scaly, four legs, two wings, breathes [fire, usually], apex predators." It's rare to see a dragon body shape as anything else. Which is interesting considering that prior to the modern era, it seems like "dragon" could mean just about anything big and powerful in folklore and literature.

I believe that when most people think of a dragon, they think of the description I gave -- maybe with the only difference being whether the forelimbs are separate from the wings or not. I'm wondering when that switch "flipped" like it did for Santa Claus. What do y'all think?

[Peelee]

Was it Smaug? I'm guessing it's Smaug.

The poem A Visit From St. Nicholas is often said to be the codifier for many of the popular culture assumptions about Santa - specifically his visual look, his behaviors, and how he delivers his gifts. Before then, people had broadly ranging opinions and a lot of different conceptions, but afterwards basically everybody "agreed" that, at least in the modern sense, he was a fat, jolly old man with a white beard who wore red. Yes, I'm oversimplifying but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Did something similar happen to western dragons? I feel like the modern conception is almost exclusively "scaly, four legs, two wings, breathes [fire, usually], apex predators." It's rare to see a dragon body shape as anything else. Which is interesting considering that prior to the modern era, it seems like "dragon" could mean just about anything big and powerful in folklore and literature.

I believe that when most people think of a dragon, they think of the description I gave -- maybe with the only difference being whether the forelimbs are separate from the wings or not. I'm wondering when that switch "flipped" like it did for Santa Claus. What do y'all think?

In and after the early Middle Ages, the European dragon is typically depicted as a large, fire-breathing, scaly, horned, lizard-like creature; the creature also has leathery, bat-like wings, four legs, and a long, muscular prehensile tail. Some depictions show dragons with one or more of: feathered wings, crests, ear frills, fiery manes, ivory spikes running down its spine, and various exotic decorations.

I don't think Tolkien is as old as you think he is.

[Ionathus]

I don't think Tolkien is as old as you think he is.

Well, Smaug is best dragon, so clearly all the rest have been imitators. Therefore, Tolkien must have come first. When was Tolkien? Middle-1600s, right?

[Errorname]

It's Beowulf. That's the dragon that Tolkien was inspired by for Smaug and thus codified as the definitive fantasy dragon.

Of course it also predates most medieval depictions, and frankly I don't think the visual look of dragons has even changed that much. The reason medieval dragons look different isn't because they had a fundamentally different concept of what a dragon was but because we have much better references for what a big reptile ought to look like (this is also why they've generally gotten bigger, bear sized dragons don't cut it in a world that knows what a T.rex was). You'd note that we also draw elephants and wolves a lot more consistently now these days too.

[Peelee]

Well, Smaug is best dragon, so clearly all the rest have been imitators. Therefore, Tolkien must have come first. When was Tolkien? Middle-1600s, right?

Fun fact, my initial instinct was to link the Welsh flag, and then o discovered the dragon was added in the fifties. Which would have blunted the point just a tad.

You'd note that we also draw elephants and wolves a lot more consistently now these days too.

Well, except the blind people.

[Wintermoot]

I don't have your answer, but I would guess the right place to look would be the illustrations of Christian monks in the mid-to-late middle ages. Dragons, like many monsters, appear frequently in the wonderful side-bar art of illustrated, copied works coming out of the various monasteries. I would guess that's where the basics got codified, because those illustrations were large sources for folklorists that came after.

[Ionathus]

It's Beowulf. That's the dragon that Tolkien was inspired by for Smaug and thus codified as the definitive fantasy dragon.

Of course it also predates most medieval depictions, and frankly I don't think the visual look of dragons has even changed that much. The reason medieval dragons look different isn't because they had a fundamentally different concept of what a dragon was but because we have much better references for what a big reptile ought to look like (this is also why they've generally gotten bigger, bear sized dragons don't cut it in a world that knows what a T.rex was). You'd note that we also draw elephants and wolves a lot more consistently now these days too.

You know, I genuinely forgot there was a dragon in Beowulf. My memory was purely Grendel and Grendel's Mother, and while I knew there was reference to a dragon I genuinely forgot it was a separate entity.

It's hard to argue with the descriptions I'm finding for the Beowulf dragon -- these are all pretty standard to the modern conception. Except for maybe the "venomous bite" which has fallen by the wayside in favor of focusing on the firebreath. Not too surprising, since breathing fire is cool as hell.

[Mechalich]

The visual depiction of dragons underwent significant change during the Middle Ages, with the modern look: winged, quadrupedal, long neck and tail; slowly acquiring dominance over an earlier, much more serpentine appearance that traces to Classical Greece if not earlier, sometime between 1250 and 1500. This 15th manuscript portrays the Vortigern Dragons (a minor component of Authurian legend) in recognizably modern fashion.

The reason for the change in the visual language and the codification of what a 'dragon' was in Europe appears to have been dictated by heraldry, which needed to determine what qualified as a dragon vs a wyvern, cockatrice, basilisk, or similar creature on coats of arms. This was especially important in the 15th century as major figures such as the Royal House of Wales and the Tudor monarchs of England used dragons as their badges - Henry VII used a coat of arms with a very recognizable, modern-style red dragon on it from 1485 onward.

[GloatingSwine]

I don't think Tolkien is as old as you think he is.

No but he did helpfully ignore everything that had been written since the 11th century as being modern rubbish.

[Eldan]

I don't think Tolkien is as old as you think he is.

I mean, yeah, kind of, but on the other hand, medieval dragons are enormously diverse. 0,2,4 or 8 legs, wings or no wings, one head, two heads, three heads, bat wings, bird wings, butterfly wings, lion heads, dog heads, snake heads, lizard heads, scaly, wormlike, breathing fire or poison...

Smaug definitely got the standard set of traits together at least. A four legged lizard with wings, breathing fire.

[hamishspence]

The poem A Visit From St. Nicholas is often said to be the codifier for many of the popular culture assumptions about Santa - specifically his visual look, his behaviors, and how he delivers his gifts. Before then, people had broadly ranging opinions and a lot of different conceptions, but afterwards basically everybody "agreed" that, at least in the modern sense, he was a fat, jolly old man with a white beard who wore red. Yes, I'm oversimplifying but I hope you get what I'm saying.

In the poem he wears all fur rather than an outfit trimmed with fur - the "red and white" colour theme may have come later. He's also characterised as tiny, as are his reindeer.

[Wintermoot]

In the poem he wears all fur rather than an outfit trimmed with fur - the "red and white" colour theme may have come later. He's also characterised as tiny, as are his reindeer.

AFAIK the specific look of Santa that exists today traces back to a Coke Ad in 1931. That cemented the very specific rosy-cheeked jolly fat man in a red suit trimmed with white fur we have today.

Thanks coca-cola!

But that story is considered largely apocryphal by many, so I'm sure many of you will post how wrongy wrong I am. There are certainly illustrations similar to the coca-cola ad illustrations going back further in the early 1900s

[Ionathus]

In the poem he wears all fur rather than an outfit trimmed with fur - the "red and white" colour theme may have come later. He's also characterised as tiny, as are his reindeer.

I would love a thoroughly-researched book on the evolution of Santa Claus's "look." Specific examples of works that standardized this or that characteristic. That would be really fun for me.

AFAIK the specific look of Santa that exists today traces back to a Coke Ad in 1931. That cemented the very specific rosy-cheeked jolly fat man in a red suit trimmed with white fur we have today.

Thanks coca-cola!

But that story is considered largely apocryphal by many, so I'm sure many of you will post how wrongy wrong I am. There are certainly illustrations similar to the coca-cola ad illustrations going back further in the early 1900s

It's also possible that even if Coca-Cola didn't invent that look, their ads may have popularized it.

[GloatingSwine]

I mean, yeah, kind of, but on the other hand, medieval dragons are enormously diverse. 0,2,4 or 8 legs, wings or no wings, one head, two heads, three heads, bat wings, bird wings, butterfly wings, lion heads, dog heads, snake heads, lizard heads, scaly, wormlike, breathing fire or poison...

Smaug definitely got the standard set of traits together at least. A four legged lizard with wings, breathing fire.

Though medieval depictions of things that actually existed also got pretty wild. Possibly because they were being drawn by a monk who had never seen them and was operating on fifth hand information.

[Errorname]

Though medieval depictions of things that actually existed also got pretty wild. Possibly because they were being drawn by a monk who had never seen them and was operating on fifth hand information.

This is a massive factor. Aside from their scale, I think a lot of modern dragons are quite similar to medieval ones, they're just being drawn by artists who are more familiar with big reptiles, both living and extinct

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, it was the 1977 Hobbit movie and the 1984 Childcraft Annual.

[CheesePirate]

Smaug is best dragon

I've always liked Chrysophylax Dives.

[Tyndmyr]

Though medieval depictions of things that actually existed also got pretty wild. Possibly because they were being drawn by a monk who had never seen them and was operating on fifth hand information.

Makes sense. When travelling in Haiti, I noticed that while the street art was often excellent at depicting nature, sunsets, people....all the things that were around them day to day, the cruise ships were invariably drawn with wild variety and not much accuracy. If you look at them for a minute, the ships appear almost alien relative to the rest of their works.

We draw, write, etc what we know best. Even when it's something we do actually see, the familiar gets portrayed more reliably than the unfamiliar.

[Bartmanhomer]

Did someone say dragons? I read the whole thread and yes Smaug comes to mind plus D&D Cartoon Tiamat.

[Peelee]

I mean, yeah, kind of, but on the other hand, medieval dragons are enormously diverse. 0,2,4 or 8 legs, wings or no wings, one head, two heads, three heads, bat wings, bird wings, butterfly wings, lion heads, dog heads, snake heads, lizard heads, scaly, wormlike, breathing fire or poison...

Sure, outliers existed, but European dragons were pretty much winged four-legged lizards as the standard by medieval times.

Smaug is famous in modern pop culture, sure, but that's a far cry from thinking that he cemented what was already the norm for centuries and centuries.

Spoiler: Look up medieval dragons and you're probably going to find stuff like this

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[Batcathat]

Spoiler: Look up medieval dragons and you're probably going to find stuff like this

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Little know fact: In medieval times it was quite popular to bet on the cruel sport of dragon fighting.

[Peelee]

Little know fact: In medieval times it was quite popular to bet on the cruel sport of dragon fighting.

Really I just googled "medieval gambling" and it happened to have dragons in it.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, Beowulf would have been my blind guess for literature since I'm pretty sure it's the oldest surviving piece of European literature we have. Though even Beowulf didn't fully codify the look and traits, as Fafnir (from the epic of Sigurd/Siegfried) is considerably more serpent-like, and that was written a bit later.

But it seems reasonable to deduce that the depiction of the hoarding, lizard-like, fire-breathing dragon of Beowulf did stick in peoples' imaginations and slowly started to become the dominant western depiction.

Though medieval depictions of things that actually existed also got pretty wild. Possibly because they were being drawn by a monk who had never seen them and was operating on fifth hand information.

I always love the story of what inspired the Questing Beast, from the Arthurian legends. A fierce beast with the body of leopard and head of a snake!

Behold!

Spoiler

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A far cry from people drawing it by description...

[Eldan]

I love weird medieval animal descriptions. Such as the camelopard above, the animal with the body of a camel, but the spots of a leopard.

Or the cat-snake, a snake with the legs and head of a cat.

Spoiler

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I.e. a weasel.

[Mechalich]

But it seems reasonable to deduce that the depiction of the hoarding, lizard-like, fire-breathing dragon of Beowulf did stick in peoples' imaginations and slowly started to become the dominant western depiction.

This is an incorrect assumption, because Beowulf was not in circulation for most of its history. Beowulf is recorded from a single manuscript, the Norwell Codex, produced between 975-1025 CE (though many scholars, including Tolkien, believe the original story dates from the 8th century), whose provenance is known only as far back as 1563, when it was acquired by Laurence Nowell. Beowulf was not transcribed until 1787 and not published (in Latin) in 1815. It was not translated into English in full until 1837. Beowulf was not widely known outside of scholars of Early British Literature until popularized by Tolkien beginning in the 1930s. Smaug resembles the dragon from Beowulf to be sure, and insofar as Smaug's description had an influence on depictions of dragons following the publication of The Hobbit - which is absolutely did! - there's a through line to Beowulf, but images of dragons had reached a recognizably modern form well before this.


One useful way to look at the evolution of depictions of dragons in European art is the classic image of St. George slaying the dragon, which dates to the 11th century and has a vast number of surviving visual depictions. The relevant wikipedia page displays quite a few and usefully includes lots of dates. The 'modern' European dragon with four legs, bat-like wings, scales, and a skull blending a variety of reptilian features becomes common around the year 1500.

[Eldan]

I think an interesting bonus question would be when we first got a glorious, majestic dragon. A mighty beast much larger than the knight slaying it, isntead of some pitiful crawling thing. Because that view held on much longer.

[Peelee]

I think an interesting bonus question would be when we first got a glorious, majestic dragon. A mighty beast much larger than the knight slaying it, isntead of some pitiful crawling thing. Because that view held on much longer.

The answer to that is much clearer - the cover art for Dragon Age.

[Ionathus]

The answer to that is much clearer - the cover art for Dragon Age.

No, actually, the answer is October 2, 2000, when Ravensburger published this puzzle I found at a garage sale for a dollar.

https://www.amazon.com/Ravensburger-.../dp/B000T7ADMY

[Peelee]

No, actually, the answer is October 2, 2000, when Ravensburger published this puzzle I found at a garage sale for a dollar.

https://www.amazon.com/Ravensburger-.../dp/B000T7ADMY

Is it still available at the garage sale?

[OracleofWuffing]

I think an interesting bonus question would be when we first got a glorious, majestic dragon. A mighty beast much larger than the knight slaying it, isntead of some pitiful crawling thing. Because that view held on much longer.

I think the answer to that is "Still Beowulf." Depending on which oral tradition decides the dragon's size, of course.

Otherwise, piggybacking off of Peelee's Welsh flag idea, you have Owain Glyndŵr's golden dragon standard, but it didn't have a human to see a scale with it. It didn't have forearms though, just legs and wings. Was supposed to be similar to King Uther's battle standard, but everything I'm coming up with indicates dragons were still closer to flying snakes at that time and who knows how much history has been rewritten there. Regardless, that battle standard is sort-of a stepping stone to the red dragon with arms that's on the flag now.

Fafnir's got shoulders, legs, and wings in the Volsunga Saga, but was a snake in earlier works.