The Lord of the Rings - Rings of Power Season 2 [airs August 29th]

[t209]

Now part of me wonder if it was meant to be Warhammer Fantasy since some of the armor seems like it came straight from High Elves miniatures (especially 2E).
That or it’s other way around.
Maybe Amazon wanted to make Warhammer but had to recycle their props.
Also was it me or anyone thought that they were going to make Dragon Age “beardless” dwarves when the news came out.

[Metastachydium]

I think that was actually Adar's plan, and, unless I'm misremembering, it was intended to do exactly what it did, act as a path for the sun-averse orcs to reach their destination, then funnel the water back to the volcano, once they'd released it and cause the eruption which would blot out the sun and allow the Orcs to have a homeland of their own, where they can actually walk about.

Correct. I was overstating the absurdity of it somewhat, but let's face it: it is a dazzlingly stupid plan, even if it worked for some reason.

But I may be misremembering, as Adar was basically the only part of the first season that worked for me and I may be backfilling to make it work for me.

Nah, I can feel that. Like I said, I also think he was their closest thing to a good idea.

Season 2 looks even worse, so I'm kind of excited to see it.

Gotta love that attitude, I must admit.

The alternative would be a show like Legend of the Seeker

Well, I don't suppose I need to stress how big a mistake that one, in particular, made by trying to adapt what it tried to adapt, nevertheless.

[pita]

Well, I don't suppose I need to stress how big a mistake that one, in particular, made by trying to adapt what it tried to adapt, nevertheless.

To be fair to Raimi, they had like three episodes tops where they tried to adapt the books, the rest of it was just Raimi doing Raimi things. It was great. Bruce Spence's performance was like he was told he'd get paid by the decibel.

[Rynjin]

Amazon have beat the system, creating something so polarising that the only way to judge it fairly is to watch the damn thing.

But like with everything else they've miscalculated: most people aren't interested in judging something fairly.

[Errorname]

I may be misremembering, as Adar was basically the only part of the first season that worked for me and I may be backfilling to make it work for me.

Naturally they lost the actor between seasons. Oops.

I think I agree with you. The ingredients are there for a good show, and at time the Rings of Power gets there - Elrond and the Dwarves shows real charm, and there's something really interesting about a growing friendship-maybe-more between a disguised Sauron and Galadriel

Honestly, part of my issue is that it's a Lord of the Rings series to begin with, because when I hear the pitch "breaking bad but for the rise of a fantasy overlord" that's kind of exciting, and giving a quasi-romance to your main villain and hero is compelling, but neither of those are Lord of the Rings to me.

If this was an original fantasy story I would also be less bothered by a lot of the production decisions, which aren't great but would be vastly improved if I wasn't mentally comparing them to the Jackson and company takes which looked way better both in concept and execution.

[pita]

Honestly, part of my issue is that it's a Lord of the Rings series to begin with, because when I hear the pitch "breaking bad but for the rise of a fantasy overlord" that's kind of exciting, and giving a quasi-romance to your main villain and hero is compelling, but neither of those are Lord of the Rings to me.

If this was an original fantasy story I would also be less bothered by a lot of the production decisions, which aren't great but would be vastly improved if I wasn't mentally comparing them to the Jackson and company takes which looked way better both in concept and execution.

I do agree fully with you there. Tolkien made very deliberate choices in how he focused the narratives and what the narratives were. He very deliberately wrote about the meek and the humble, and showed how goodness came from rejection of power. Focusing a show on the badass elf queen is going to go against his ethos no matter what.

I think it's easier for me not to care because while I like LOTR and love The Hobbit, it's not quite important to me on that level. I fully understand Tolkien fans who were upset, though - same reason I started hating Game of Thrones in season 4 in spite of my generous view of most fantasy shows.

[KorvinStarmast]

I do agree fully with you there. Tolkien made very deliberate choices in how he focused the narratives and what the narratives were. He very deliberately wrote about the meek and the humble, and showed how goodness came from rejection of power. Focusing a show on the badass elf queen is going to go against his ethos no matter what.

And she's not even a queen yet, but well said. She was dismissed by the king from her command of troops and sent home (The West). She's got a long way to go before she can be called a queen.

Speaking of which: she dives off the boat, swims east, and runs into "not sauron" who is there because...why?
Maybe they will explain that in Season two, but as it currently stands, that's a deux ex machina at best.

Or is there something about her disobedience to Gil Galad that somehow triggers the sensors of a dark/evil Maia?
Again, unexplained.

Not sure if I am alone in this, but I think that Adar is a First Age elf, a refugee from Beleriand, who wandered long and far before he settled in the south; he met some orcs along the way and for (reasons) feels a connection to them.
Not quite what tolkiengateway has...

[Infernally Clay]

And she's not even a queen yet, but well said. She was dismissed by the king from her command of troops and sent home (The West). She's got a long way to go before she can be called a queen.

Galadriel never becomes a queen, she and Celeborn become the Lord and Lady of Lothlórien after the king dies at sea and has no heirs and they protect it from Sauron and his forces for thousands of years. It is said that the only way he could have taken Lothlórien is if he went there himself, but of course he couldn't do that until he got the One Ring back.

That's kinda the thing about Galadriel, after all. She isn't dainty or weak. She was referred to as positively Amazonian by Tolkien, one of the wisest and most powerful elves to ever live, taught by the angels themselves back in Valinor.

Admittedly Galadriel in Rings of Power isn't quite as impressive as Cate Blanchett was in the movies but that's really because characters like that are best kept ambiguous and unknowable. In The Lord of the Rings, Galadriel is an ancient and terrifying being who has lived since the First Age, when the gods themselves fought over the fate of the world. It stands to reason making her a protagonist of a show would diminish that mystery.

Speaking of which: she dives off the boat, swims east, and runs into "not sauron" who is there because...why?
Maybe they will explain that in Season two, but as it currently stands, that's a deux ex machina at best.

The implication seems to be that Sauron knew where Galadriel would be and put himself in her path. She was his ticket into Númenor where, if you recall, he intended to stay. When it turned out the smiths of Númenor weren't good enough to forge the rings of power, he stuck with Galadriel until she could bring him to Celebrimbor.

[pendell]

Yes. Just because the meek and the humble are the heroes of LOTR doesn't mean there's no place for the strong and powerful in the plans of Eru Illuvatar. That is, in fact, what Aragorn is doing before the events of Fellowship; as a rogue in the woods, he and his fellow Dunadain hunt monsters and evil creatures in the wild lands, which is why the Shire is so peaceful; they have guards they aren't even aware of ceaselessly laboring so the hobbits and Bree-folk can have a peace.

To quote Terry Pratchett: "Them as can have to do for them as can't, and someone has to speak up for them with no voices." It's an attitude both Tolkien and the characters he wrote would have agreed with.

So it's not that there's no place for Minas Tirith and its high walls or its mighty armies; it's that you can't ultimately achieve victory or a lasting peace through them. Following that route, of prioritizing strength over goodness , eventually takes you down Boromir's path. Sure, you can defeat Sauron but you've won nothing; you've killed Sauron only to take his place, like in the end stage of Diablo. They are a tool for success, even a necessary tool; Frodo could not have made it to an unguarded Mount Doom if tens of thousands of ordinary foot soldiers had not risked their lives in a suicidal attack on the Black Gate to distract the Eye's attention. But you can't establish a peaceful shire and a world worth living in through such means.

Crossing Genres, this is ultimately my complaint about the Jedi in Episode II. I just played through "The Two Towers" and I was struck by Saruman's use of cloning to generate an army of Uruk-hai. Saruman is fighting Sauron using his own weapons, tools, and methods. From Gandalf's perspective, that's even worse than being defeated by Sauron. The goal of Gandalf and Elrond is not just to defeat Sauron, but to make a world where there aren't any Dark Lords at all. Defeating Sauron with his own Ring is, indeed, the shortest path to tactical victory. But it only replaces one Dark Lord with another; the free people gain nothing from it.

I think Lucas writes from the same vantage point as Tolkien as the SW Prequels tell almost the same story. The Jedi choose the literal weapons of their enemy -- the clones -- to fight the enemy of the moment. They are making Saruman's choice. And the result is exactly the thing that Tolkien warned about; the Republic, by using the weapons and methods of the Sith, becomes the Empire. It's not a victory worth having. The point of fighting is not to defeat Dooku to set up Palpatine in his place; the point of fighting is to create a Republic where there aren't any Sith Lords ruling things at all.

This is a test that Gandalf passed and the Jedi failed. While the refusal of the obvious choice (use of clones , use of the Ring) is military madness, as both Boromir and Denethor rightly observe, it's still the better choice because the war both Jedi and Istari are fighting is as much a battle of ideals and spiritual strength as it is a military battle. It's a multi-part battle; winning the military side is still a defeat if they other parts are lost.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[GloatingSwine]

Crossing Genres, this is ultimately my complaint about the Jedi in Episode II. I just played through "The Two Towers" and I was struck by Saruman's use of cloning to generate an army of Uruk-hai. Saruman is fighting Sauron using his own weapons, tools, and methods. From Gandalf's perspective, that's even worse than being defeated by Sauron. The goal of Gandalf and Elrond is not just to defeat Sauron, but to make a world where there aren't any Dark Lords at all. Defeating Sauron with his own Ring is, indeed, the shortest path to tactical victory. But it only replaces one Dark Lord with another; the free people gain nothing from it.

The Uruk-hai are a distraction in this. Saruman is only intending to fight Sauron at all if he gets the One Ring. If he doesn't he's angling for a favoured minion position. He may even have been spooked into marching his forces out earlier than he intended by the knowledge that it was on the move and might slip from his grasp, if he'd managed to defeat Rohan he would have been in a position to bargain for some kind of vassalage rather than being gobbled up.

[DavidSh]

Crossing Genres, this is ultimately my complaint about the Jedi in Episode II. I just played through "The Two Towers" and I was struck by Saruman's use of cloning to generate an army of Uruk-hai. Saruman is fighting Sauron using his own weapons, tools, and methods. From Gandalf's perspective, that's even worse than being defeated by Sauron. The goal of Gandalf and Elrond is not just to defeat Sauron, but to make a world where there aren't any Dark Lords at all. Defeating Sauron with his own Ring is, indeed, the shortest path to tactical victory. But it only replaces one Dark Lord with another; the free people gain nothing from it.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, really I'm not, but I'd like clarification. Should I take "just played through" as "just watched the Jackson film of", or "just read through Tolkien's book"? Or was there actually a video game trilogy that I'm unaware of. (I can easily imagine a strongly-plotted JRPG version, along the lines of the Xenosaga games.) I don't think Tolkien implied that Saurman's generation of the Uruk-hai was through anything other than normal mammalian breeding techniques, but Jackson did things differently.

[pendell]

I'm not trying to be pedantic, really I'm not, but I'd like clarification. Should I take "just played through" as "just watched the Jackson film of", or "just read through Tolkien's book"? Or was there actually a video game trilogy that I'm unaware of. (I can easily imagine a strongly-plotted JRPG version, along the lines of the Xenosaga games.) I don't think Tolkien implied that Saurman's generation of the Uruk-hai was through anything other than normal mammalian breeding techniques, but Jackson did things differently.

I'm talking about the PS/2 video game tie-in to the movie. It has a lot of cutscenes interleaved with the movies and Saruman's Uruk-hai feature prominently as adversaries.

One of the things that struck me most about this army, revisiting the game several years on, is how modern Saruman's army is both in the movies and the associated games. The Uruk-hai wear mass-produced plate armor. They carry crossbows, throw grenades, use black powder as explosive, Suicide bombers, catapults. The swords are mass-produced falchions , designed to be easy to mass manufacture, easy and intuitive to use, rugged under battlefield conditions; the AK-47 of LOTR, as discussed in the illustrated guide .

That's not a medieval army. That's an early modern/renaissance army.

This is what I'm getting at: The Uruk-Hai are the Clone Army of LOTR. They are created from spawning pits to generate an army of tens of thousands from practically nothing to contest the dominance of Middle-Earth with Sauron, using tactics and equipment which is centuries ahead of anything anyone else has. It's as if Saruman was watching Gate and thought it was a good idea. This is a close analogue to the ready-made army presented to the Jedi in Star Wars as the Only Possible Alternative to the Separatists winning.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Divayth Fyr]

The implication seems to be that Sauron knew where Galadriel would be and put himself in her path. She was his ticket into Númenor where, if you recall, he intended to stay. When it turned out the smiths of Númenor weren't good enough to forge the rings of power, he stuck with Galadriel until she could bring him to Celebrimbor.

I mean, he'd need to be omniscient and possibly omnipotent to pull that stunt off. Like, you could claim he had a way of knowing what happened in Gil-Galad's kingdom, maybe even that he could predict Galadriel would pull a stunt and jump overboard. but how in hell would he not only manage to pinpoint where she'd end up, but also appear there at the exact right time? That wasn't some small pond, it was the frigging sea!

Similiarly we have Adar's grand plan. It's viability (and logistics) aside, who the heck made that dam and lock, and decided to use something that seems to possibly be the most magical sword in Middle-Earth (having the blade appear like that seems quite a feat) as the key to the release mechanism?

[Infernally Clay]

I mean, he'd need to be omniscient and possibly omnipotent to pull that stunt off. Like, you could claim he had a way of knowing what happened in Gil-Galad's kingdom, maybe even that he could predict Galadriel would pull a stunt and jump overboard. but how in hell would he not only manage to pinpoint where she'd end up, but also appear there at the exact right time? That wasn't some small pond, it was the frigging sea!

Similiarly we have Adar's grand plan. It's viability (and logistics) aside, who the heck made that dam and lock, and decided to use something that seems to possibly be the most magical sword in Middle-Earth (having the blade appear like that seems quite a feat) as the key to the release mechanism?

Sauron is an angel and this is long before he contains most of his power in the One Ring, so the idea that he can track others really isn't that farfetched. His magic power is vastly superior to anything Gandalf or Saruman can do, or any of the elves for that matter.

[DavidSh]

Sauron is an angel and this is long before he contains most of his power in the One Ring, so the idea that he can track others really isn't that farfetched. His magic power is vastly superior to anything Gandalf or Saruman can do, or any of the elves for that matter.

I was going to say that he was overcome by Luthien, in the Silmarillion, so not so vastly superior, but when I actually checked, I found that it was a dog who drove him out from Tol-in-Gaurhoth. Huan, a hound from Valinor, but still a dog. (I suspect some influence from the early days of Tolkien's writing, when Sauron's role was played by a cat.)

[GloatingSwine]

It's worth pointing out that the main "power" of the One Ring is to twist people's wills to that of its master.

Sauron isn't a danger because he's handy in a fight, he's a danger because he can smother the will and enslave the mind. (Which as far as it shows in his writing is Tolkien's version of capital E Evil. Not just an evil thing to do but what evil is.)

[Infernally Clay]

It's worth pointing out that the main "power" of the One Ring is to twist people's wills to that of its master.

Sauron isn't a danger because he's handy in a fight, he's a danger because he can smother the will and enslave the mind. (Which as far as it shows in his writing is Tolkien's version of capital E Evil. Not just an evil thing to do but what evil is.)

I don't believe that's entirely correct. Yes Sauron was driven by his almost single-minded desire to bend all life to his will, but only because it was a corruption of his intended purpose - he was literally created to create order in the world and Morgoth convinced him the only way to succeed at his purpose was to enforce that order himself.

In terms of his actual power, Sauron was the strongest of the Maiar. He was the most powerful ally Morgoth had, which is saying a lot, and unlike the Maiar his power wasn't sealed away while he worked his mojo in Middle Earth. It took Elendil and Gil-galad working together to defeat him, remember, and Gil-galad is easily the only elf still in the world that could be considered as powerful, or more powerful, than Galadriel and he still needed the most powerful of the elven rings of power.

[DavidSh]

In terms of his actual power, Sauron was the strongest of the Maiar. He was the most powerful ally Morgoth had, which is saying a lot, and unlike the Maiar his power wasn't sealed away while he worked his mojo in Middle Earth. It took Elendil and Gil-galad working together to defeat him, remember, and Gil-galad is easily the only elf still in the world that could be considered as powerful, or more powerful, than Galadriel and he still needed the most powerful of the elven rings of power.

But Gil-galad could not use a ring of power against Sauron, the Lord of the Rings, while Sauron still held the One.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's kinda the thing about Galadriel, after all. She isn't dainty or weak. She was referred to as positively Amazonian by Tolkien, one of the wisest and most powerful elves to ever live, taught by the angels themselves back in Valinor.

Nobody said otherwise.

The implication seems to be that Sauron knew where Galadriel would be and put himself in her path. She was his ticket into Númenor where, if you recall, he intended to stay. When it turned out the smiths of Númenor weren't good enough to forge the rings of power, he stuck with Galadriel until she could bring him to Celebrimbor.

It's the (a) knowing she'd be at sea (b) knowing she'd jump off (c) being in the right place in the whole freaking ocean ... not sure how much time you spent on the high seas. The ocean is an incredibly large place.

1. I think some wires got crossed. Sauron was originally a maia of Aule, the craftsman/smith. Calling him the most powerful maiar is not attested. He was one of the most gifted of the maia, yes. Morgoth / Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar. He recruited Sauron to his side.

2. If Manwe can't see everything, and he's got the best eyes and scouts on Middle Earth, Sauron diminished sure can't. Now, if he had a spy in Lindon he'd have found out about Galadriel's being relieved of command and sent home by the High King, Gil Galad. That would then open up his chances to go to sea and find a way to intercept her.

3. Did he summon the sea monster which attacked the boat?

Again, not show on screen, not explained, and without some fleshing out deux ex machina...at best.

[Lemmy]

A new season of RoP?!

I'm not surprised... It has dozens of fans! DOZENS!

[Talakeal]

Calling him the most powerful maiar is not attested. He was one of the most gifted of the maia, yes. Morgoth / Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar. He recruited Sauron to his side.

IIRC Sauron Is called the “greatest of the maiar” in the Silmarillion.

Gandalf is also called the wisest, mellian the loveliest, and eonwe the mightiest of arms.

But Tolkien doesn’t really go in for the while power rankings thing.

[Divayth Fyr]

IIRC Sauron Is called the “greatest of the maiar” in the Silmarillion.

Gandalf is also called the wisest, mellian the loveliest, and eonwe the mightiest of arms.

But Tolkien doesn’t really go in for the while power rankings thing.

I know he is called the greatest among the servants of Morgoth, don't think he is explicitely called "greatest of the Maiar". Though Tolkien did have a lot of different takes on things.

Sauron is an angel and this is long before he contains most of his power in the One Ring, so the idea that he can track others really isn't that farfetched. His magic power is vastly superior to anything Gandalf or Saruman can do, or any of the elves for that matter.

I don't believe he showcased any such ability during the events of the Silmarillion, even in cases where it would have been a huge boon. And even if he could it still leaves the bit where he somehow manages to get on a dinky raft in the right place at the exact right moment.

[Sapphire Guard]

'greatest' is not the same thing as 'good in a fight' Manwe is the greatest Vala, but Tulkas and Orome are the combat specialists. But the don't have the rights to the Silmarillion with ROP, so I think the best move is just to ignore whatever book lore you've got.

WOT Season 2 is a tricky one. As a generic fantasy show it's above average, but in terms of the material it's really pushing the limits of whether it's adapting the source at all. But if you try to take it as an independent work it becomes really confusing, because the mechanics as explained contradict each other.

[Trafalgar]

A new season of RoP?!

I'm not surprised... It has dozens of fans! DOZENS!

I got through 3 episodes. I remember thinking they spent $300 million on this? Where did the money go?

Definitely not on the writers, The dialogue was horrible.

[Precure]

I'm on the camp that Sauron didn't plan to meet Galadriel there and it was a literal deus ex machina. Sauron was still on his redemption mode back then, and I think he might be trying to reach Aman.

[MinimanMidget]

I think Lucas writes from the same vantage point as Tolkien as the SW Prequels tell almost the same story. The Jedi choose the literal weapons of their enemy -- the clones -- to fight the enemy of the moment. They are making Saruman's choice.

Except Saruman makes that choice for them. Like, literally. It's the same actor and everything.

[Metastachydium]

Except Saruman makes that choice for them. Like, literally. It's the same actor and everything.

Filmmamking People: Hm. We need an EVIL old guy who dies at the end. Whoever could we cast for that?!
Christopher Lee: [Raises hand.]

[KorvinStarmast]

I got through 3 episodes. I remember thinking they spent $300 million on this? Where did the money go?

Definitely not on the writers, The dialogue was horrible.

If the dialogue is bad, it for sure is on the writers.

I'm on the camp that Sauron didn't plan to meet Galadriel there and it was a literal deus ex machina. Sauron was still on his redemption mode back then, and I think he might be trying to reach Aman.

I don't think he was. His chance at redemption was at the end of the First Age. And he was unwilling to cross the see and seek absolution from Manwe. His ego got in the way.

IIRC Sauron Is called the “greatest of the maiar” in the Silmarillion.

I don't think so, though I do recall that he was deemed the greatest of Melkor's servants.
But I'll have to go and check tonight ...

[Infernally Clay]

I'm on the camp that Sauron didn't plan to meet Galadriel there and it was a literal deus ex machina.

I guess that will ultimately depend on how heavy handed they intend to get with Eru Ilúvatar, because they can absolutely angle it as Eru giving Sauron one last chance at redemption by putting him in the path of the one person who could still save him if he allows her to.

We're still years out from the breaking of the world, so it remains to be seen if it'll be a natural disaster or a direct intervention from the creator god of Middle Earth. At this particular point in the show Middle Earth is still very much flat and, of course, Eru is the one that turns it into a globe.

[Seppl]

I don't think so, though I do recall that he was deemed the greatest of Melkor's servants.
But I'll have to go and check tonight ...

Yet, Sauron's record is just one L after the other. Instead, Gothmog and Glaurung have to come out when a main character needs to die. Those two are the actual carries in team Melkor. His other servants (Sauron, Ancalagon) may have more hype, but actually do very little.