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2024-05-18, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
It doesn't violate copyright or IP protections because transformative use is allowed by these. And this is just about the most transformative use possible.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2024-05-18, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-05-18, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
The point is you can't steal a single word. Individual words don't belong to anyone. And on average the AI is going to use less than that from any given source for any given output.
In addition to transformative use being allowed, there's also the matter of whether copyright of IP shpuld exist at all. Whatever nobke rationale they may have once had the fact of the matter is that at this point they function primarily to prop up the corporate machine.
Furthermore even if its original purpose were intact its worthiness would still be in question. I view the economy as existing solely to provide people with goods and services. Workers and investors alike are incidental at best; they have value only insofar as their presence enables the consumer to acquire goods and services. If the same goods and services can be produced more efficiently without them then they must fall away. In the limit everything becomes free and this everyone is free"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2024-05-18, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
"Artists dont deserve to exist or get paid for their work" is... one heck of a hot take, ill grant you. How do you plan to break it to the artists that youve decided they arent allowed to make a living anymore?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-05-18, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
I'm not confused here. It isn't that I don't know the answer. I'm asking this to you, specifically, because earlier you said it's ok, and then I gave an example where it isn't ok. So I want you to tell me why you think it's ok for some things and not ok for other things.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-05-18, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Sure, you don't. But if you just say "I believe in this one thing, even though i readily admit it seems hypocritical, and I won't explain any of my reasoning", then why am I even listening to you? Your opinion doesn't really matter to anyone except you, and you're not trying to argue for your position. Why should anybody care?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-05-18, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
For one, I can only hope they will persevere in that practice, specifically. DeviantArt's always had weird corners I didn't want to know about, but one of the biggest problem of the place right now's that it's getting progressively buried under an avalanche of AI-generated rubbish as of now. The Machines trying to fish and all that gets caught in their net being their own crap would feel kinda poetic.
Last edited by Metastachydium; 2024-05-18 at 03:18 PM.
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2024-05-18, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
It's time to get my Magikarp on!
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2024-05-18, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
AI is a machine used by humans and is thus susceptible to human laws. If a wild animal attacked someone that is not a crime, but if you ordered your dog to attack someone that is a crime you committed. AI as a tool commits crime on behalf of the people who use it and made it.
There are laws about AI artwork- though they're still in their infancy due to the fresh frontier this all is.
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2024-05-18, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Yeah, the art get getting slowly worse as it's fed more of its own artwork would be delicious.
Although honestly I suspect what'll kill generative AI is the fact it's output packs copyright. It'll hopefully just end being being a niche tool used to make stuff like tokens for private D&D games, where practically nobody cares about copyright in either direction.
'It's not technically illegal' is generally considered a really bad argument. It's not illegal for me to go to a friend's house and put 2000 jars of English mustard in their fridge, should I do that?
That aside, the issue a lot of us have isn't actually this bit. It's the humans deciding to steal the art to shove into the algorithm in the first place. Then it can't actually do anything with all that stolen artwork until a human inputs 'cute cat eating tuna'.
I really want to go on a rant about a certain kind of tool here, but I can't.
Although there are some rulings on current laws! As I said it's considered uncopyrightable, which feels like justice.
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2024-05-18, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
I thought that was tradition, if not compulsory.
Does it? Would you be willing to extend lack of copyright to someone extensively creating something entirely in photoshop? What about ArtCreate, this new app I made which is halfway between photoshop and AI art? After all, it's all tools that lack any ability to create on their own and only "create" at the direction of a person, and the extent that they can "create" vsn vary. Where, exactly, would you put the line of "this is too computerized to allow copyright"? Is it justice to disallow ownership based solely on the program as medium of creation?Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-05-18, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
1.) If pornography can be classified as "you know it when yous ee it", this can be too.
2.) AI art creation tools are not in question, the methods of data sampling are. And those can be enforced just fine with no grey areas. "You have to have permission from the artists to use their data for training". That is ALREADY the law, the issue is the industry works on a "better to ask forgiveness than permission" paradigm and they eat the fines for violating the law as a cost of doing business. The penalties need to be steeper.
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2024-05-18, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Not to mention, from what I've picked up, what seems likely to cause problems for at least the visual side of things is that you can't really make an image and then make tweaks with having that same image. There's no way to give feedback and make alterations in the same way a human is able to. Which is a pretty big part of the whole creative process.
Though I've also been hearing that a lot of AI stuff in general literally needs more data to go to its next generation then even exists for it to consume right now. There's some sort of irony there that it needs more human-made content to be created when it's trying to replace humans making content.The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
01001110011001010111001001100100
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2024-05-18, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Yes, the tools created by mass copyright infringement creating nothing that has a copyright feels like justice.
What's behind the art may be eligible for copyright, although I'm sure we'll see someone trying to flog a ChatGPT written comic soon. We might finally see plots worse than those in Youngblood.
Would you be willing to extend lack of copyright to someone extensively creating something entirely in photoshop?
1) Photoshop was not created via mass copyright infringement, and
B) an actual human had to manipulate every last element
What about ArtCreate, this new app I made which is halfway between photoshop and AI art?
More seriously, grey areas are nothing new in copyright law, and even intentionally there. Something something reaction channels.
After all, it's all tools that lack any ability to create on their own and only "create" at the direction of a person, and the extent that they can "create" vsn vary. Where, exactly, would you put the line of "this is too computerized to allow copyright"?
Is it justice to disallow ownership based solely on the program as medium of creation?
It's like how NFTs are a completely useless invention that does nothing more efficiently than methods which existed before the tech.
Don't worry, if the first piece I 'create' isn't suitable I can flip to a different page in the book!
Though I've also been hearing that a lot of AI stuff in general literally needs more data to go to its next generation then even exists for it to consume right now. There's some sort of irony there that it needs more human-made content to be created when it's trying to replace humans making content.
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2024-05-18, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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You do realize that the Stewart test is incredibly contentious in legal world due to being a horrible rationale, since it offers little to no help in letting people avoid crossing over into forbidden territory, and also is purely subjective, meaning it is rife for abuse and arbitrary judgement.
But necessary if you want to get it legislated effectively.Last edited by Peelee; 2024-05-18 at 07:26 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-05-18, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
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2024-05-18, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2024-05-18, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-05-18, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
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2024-05-18, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
I cut that off because i wasn't interested in getting into a debate on "is it really already legislated if there no penalties at all for ignoring it?", and i responded to a terrible argument that you seem to brush aside and try to ignore despite you being the one who brought it up.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2024-05-18, 09:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Because it was a throwaway response to an equally ill-thought out point. Hence why it's a flippant few-word response while the actual response to your initial post is underneath.
Last edited by Rynjin; 2024-05-18 at 09:06 PM.
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2024-05-18, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-18, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
Well I'll tell ya what, I also am not really interested in having a debate with whatever thing you decide to nitpick today, so just imagine I sent you a big ASCII "thumbs up" and we'll call it a day.
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2024-05-18, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory
"If bad judicial opinions were good enough for outdated rulings in the 60s, they're good enough now!"
"Whats the problem with arbitrary metrics in law?"
"Well you're just nitpicking".
The third act could use a bit of spicing up, that twist is a bit trite at this point. But I'll take the curtain call.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1