The Lord of the Rings - Rings of Power Season 2 [airs August 29th]

[Precure]

Sauron defeated Finrod and Beren, and only bested by Luthien and Huan. He was the one saved Morgoth's ass from Ungoliath by ordering to send help. Gothmog and Glaurung only take the limelight after his fled to the east.

[Metastachydium]

Sauron defeated Finrod and Beren, and only bested by Luthien and Huan. He was the one saved Morgoth's ass from Ungoliath by ordering to send help. Gothmog and Glaurung only take the limelight after his fled to the east.

He's also notably hard to put down definitively, whereas Glaurung is scary for his short stint as a weapon of mass destruction, but once he's dead he's dead and done.

[Ionathus]

I am putting on my Pedantry Hat. You have been warned.

Speaking of which: she dives off the boat, swims east, and runs into "not sauron" who is there because...why?
Maybe they will explain that in Season two, but as it currently stands, that's a deux ex machina at best.

Again, not show on screen, not explained, and without some fleshing out deux ex machina...at best.

I'm on the camp that Sauron didn't plan to meet Galadriel there and it was a literal deus ex machina. Sauron was still on his redemption mode back then, and I think he might be trying to reach Aman.

Sauron can't be a deus ex machina because while he arrives via unlikely and unsatisfying means, his role is to cause problems, not solve them. This is just a plot contrivance.

[pendell]

I am putting on my Pedantry Hat. You have been warned.







Sauron can't be a deus ex machina because he shows up way too conveniently to cause problems, not solve them. This is just a plot contrivance.

.. what is a pedantry hat and where do I get one? Is it a baseball cap? A pirate hat? A bowler?

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Ionathus]

.. what is a pedantry hat and where do I get one? Is it a baseball cap? A pirate hat? A bowler?

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

A beret, obviously

In honor of the country that actually thinks you can have "an authority" on what your language is and how it works. Adorable.

I mean seriously, Académie Française actually expends energy trying to prevent lexical drift! King Canute had better luck with the tides.

[Rynjin]

Sauron can't be a deus ex machina because while he arrives via unlikely and unsatisfying means, his role is to cause problems, not solve them. This is just a plot contrivance.

To be even more pedantic, his sudden and unlikely arrival would be considered the inverse, a Diabolus Ex Machina.

[Zombimode]

Yet, Sauron's record is just one L after the other. Instead, Gothmog and Glaurung have to come out when a main character needs to die. Those two are the actual carries in team Melkor. His other servants (Sauron, Ancalagon) may have more hype, but actually do very little.

Well, that depends what you count as a "win" and what as a "loss". You say that Sauron has done very little. To me that stands in stark contrast to the setting-bending impact that Sauron objectively has in the Third Age.

Sauron effectively shuts down the utopia creating power of the Rings of Power. Isn't that a "win"?

Sauron has sucessfully subjugated large parts of the world population (Harad, Rhun etc.). Isn't that a "win"?

[Seppl]

Well, that depends what you count as a "win" and what as a "loss". You say that Sauron has done very little. To me that stands in stark contrast to the setting-bending impact that Sauron objectively has in the Third Age.

Sauron effectively shuts down the utopia creating power of the Rings of Power. Isn't that a "win"?

Sauron has sucessfully subjugated large parts of the world population (Harad, Rhun etc.). Isn't that a "win"?

That is all way later, when he is acting on his own. We were speaking about the effectiveness of Morgoth's lieutenants. As such he pretty much just sat around as a fortress administrator, and not stopping the heroes who would eventually steal a stone from Morgoth's crown (though Morgoth did not stop them, either, nor anyone else).

He had some good results as an independent evil overlord, especially in the third age.

Was the ring project a win, though? His goal was to subjugate the elven leaders, and that was a complete failure, that even gave the elves the means to preserve their kingdoms until the end of the third age. The scrapped plan of using the rings on dwarves and humans was also a partial failure. The master ring did not do much, either. He lost both times an army showed up to challenge him, while he had the ring.

[J-H]

He also wrecks Eregion, which was apparently the most powerful elven kindom of its time in the 2nd Age (at least it's the largest geographic area, compared to Rivendell, the Grey Havens, or Lorien), and completely corrupts and brings down the entire isle of Numenor and almost all of the Dunedain who lived there.

This may be a reflection of Tolkien's values and religious beliefs (which I share) in that Sauron is at his worst when doing open warfare, and is at his best and most successful when he is instead deceiving people, tricking them, and twisting the truth gradually into lies. During his very limited screen time in the First Age we see him (A) Deceive the Valar sufficiently and say he was repentant enough that they let him stay [is this in Unfinished Tales? it's not in the Silmarillion, which I just read] and (B) Have his epic song battle with Finrod Felagund:
"He chanted a song of wizardry
of piercing, opening, of treachery,
revealing, uncovering, betraying."
His primary tool even in a song battle against a lesser race (Mair vs. Elf) is all about spying and betrayal rather than brute force.

He also was, IIRC, the most talent of Aule's students in terms of making things, especially with fire - but for bringing down enemies, he's best not trying for open battle.

[pendell]

He also wrecks Eregion, which was apparently the most powerful elven kindom of its time in the 2nd Age (at least it's the largest geographic area, compared to Rivendell, the Grey Havens, or Lorien), and completely corrupts and brings down the entire isle of Numenor and almost all of the Dunedain who lived there.

This may be a reflection of Tolkien's values and religious beliefs (which I share) in that Sauron is at his worst when doing open warfare, and is at his best and most successful when he is instead deceiving people, tricking them, and twisting the truth gradually into lies. During his very limited screen time in the First Age we see him (A) Deceive the Valar sufficiently and say he was repentant enough that they let him stay [is this in Unfinished Tales? it's not in the Silmarillion, which I just read] and (B) Have his epic song battle with Finrod Felagund:
"He chanted a song of wizardry
of piercing, opening, of treachery,
revealing, uncovering, betraying."
His primary tool even in a song battle against a lesser race (Mair vs. Elf) is all about spying and betrayal rather than brute force.

He also was, IIRC, the most talent of Aule's students in terms of making things, especially with fire - but for bringing down enemies, he's best not trying for open battle.

It's shown in the Akallabeth; certainly it's in the published Silmarillion, as I've read it there. It doesn't say he 'persuaded' them. It says he made a show of repentance but was unwilling to come back with them to Valinor and abide the judgement of Manwe, so he went into exile and there "fell back into evil, for the bonds Morgoth laid on him were very strong."


So it wasn't that Sauron made a "show" of repentance. He made an earnest attempt at reforming himself. The problem is , in the world of LOTR, Evil thrives on compulsion. Morgoth compels Sauron, as Sauron compels the ringwraiths. Evil, like death, is all but irresistable to the unaided mortal. This is why no one can wear the Ring -- it will eventually overcome any who wear it, regardless of their initial strength or good purpose. It's also why the orcs are irredeemable -- Morgoth broke and twisted them, but it's no more repairable than you can make an omelet back into an egg.

It takes... grace? To overcome and resist evil. Merely human or merely maia attempts at self-reformation are destined to fail. It takes the otherworldly grace extended by the Powers, as symbolized by the Lembaas bread, to finally overcome evil of this magnitude.

So perhaps a minor note of sympathy is in order for Sauron. It wasn't that he was shamming good, he really was trying to be good, but he was measured against an enemy beyond his strength, just as Frodo was. Had it been Gandalf in his shoes, the outcome would have been the same.

ETA: here's the quote from Akallabeth in the Silmarilllion.

When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eönwë, the herald of Manwë, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West. But it was not within the power of Eönwë to pardon those of his own order, and he commanded Sauron to return to Aman and there receive the judgement of Manwë. Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eönwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong.

As written, even at this stage Sauron had too much pride to humble himself, and that is never a good position to start from if one is going to become repentant. It doesn't look, at this stage, as if there was anything really stopping him from falling back into evil, and being already beholden to the first of the vices didn't help.

There's a certain irony here, because he was forced to humble himself in the face of Numenorean invasion and be taken captive to Numenor. If he'd gone willingly with Eonwe at the first, possibly he'd be less humiliated than he eventually was and the world would be a better place for many people, not least for him.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[runeghost]

That is all way later, when he is acting on his own. We were speaking about the effectiveness of Morgoth's lieutenants. As such he pretty much just sat around as a fortress administrator, and not stopping the heroes who would eventually steal a stone from Morgoth's crown (though Morgoth did not stop them, either, nor anyone else).

He had some good results as an independent evil overlord, especially in the third age.

Was the ring project a win, though? His goal was to subjugate the elven leaders, and that was a complete failure, that even gave the elves the means to preserve their kingdoms until the end of the third age. The scrapped plan of using the rings on dwarves and humans was also a partial failure. The master ring did not do much, either. He lost both times an army showed up to challenge him, while he had the ring.

I still maintain that the following is one of Tolkien's marvelous little jokes (admittedly, it's from the Silmarillion - I'm not sure where the exact corresponding passage in HoME is):

Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency; and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow. And while he wore the One Ring he could perceive all the things that were done by means of the lesser rings, and he could see and govern the very thoughts of those that wore them.

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war, demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they saved, and bore them away, and hid them.

The joke is of course that it never crossed Sauron's mind that the Elves might take off their Rings. He was so full of himself, and his mightiness, and cleverness, and his plans, that it simply never occurred to him that the Elves might not be quite as imperceptive as he'd planned, much less that they'd just abandon the power the Rings represented when they caught on. And the only "betrayal" Sauron suffered was, of course, at his own hand - and he immediately transfers that anger to his would-be victims.

[KorvinStarmast]

The majority of Sauron's 'wins' came at the expense of Men, not Elves, with the notable exception of the delayed win when Numenor showed up and owned him. His delayed win, which was an own goal committed by Ar-Pharazôn due to vanity, resulted in the fall of Númenor.

[pendell]

Well, that's a development

Tom Bombadil is finally making the leap from page to screen. The character, one of the most beloved in author J.R.R. Tolkien’s Middle-earth, will be portrayed by Olivier Award-winning actor Rory Kinnear (James Bond films, The Imitation Game) in Season Two of The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power on Prime Video. And fans can now get their first look at the character on screen.

Additionally, Chris Smith, Tolkien publishing director at HarperCollins, revealed in Vanity Fair that Tolkien’s book The Adventures of Tom Bombadil will be rereleased in paperback by HarperCollins on August 20, just ahead of the Season Two premiere of The Rings of Power. “It’s my hope that with the introduction of Rory Kinnear’s portrayal of Tom Bombadil in The Rings of Power, that audiences strive to learn more about this character and his many adventures in Tolkien’s Middle-earth and the wisdom he imparts to all readers.”

I confess to some curiosity, though not enough to spring for a subscription.

It does sound like they have to take the focus off of Galadriel just a little bit, but I'm curious to see how they will fit Tom into the story anywhere. I remember the proto-hobbits from season 1 and shudder. Hopefully this turns out better.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Infernally Clay]

Well, that's a development



I confess to some curiosity, though not enough to spring for a subscription.

It does sound like they have to take the focus off of Galadriel just a little bit, but I'm curious to see how they will fit Tom into the story anywhere. I remember the proto-hobbits from season 1 and shudder. Hopefully this turns out better.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Might wanna hold onto your butt then. Given we see Not!Gandalf and Tom Bombadil together at least some of the season will probably be focused on settling the harfoots into the Shire. I don’t know how many seasons it’ll take for that particular storyline to reach completion but it’s probably the whole reason there are hobbits in the show in the first place, to show how they got to the Shire before all hell breaks loose and Tom Bombadil keeps them safe.

[Divayth Fyr]

Well, that's a development

Not exactly impressed - leaving anything related to the timeline and such aside (since we know RoP ignores it), Tom feels wrong on two accounts. First, while technically they may have used the colors Bombadil was described wearing, they did their best to use the most drab, dour and washed down variants possible. Secondly, while we didn't see much, not one picture shows him smiling/happy. Which is basically Tom's shtick - he is always laughing, singing and generally being the most joyous being around. I admit it may be a case of them just choosing pictures that don't show it, and he'll actually be different in the series itself, but I'm not willing to give RoP the tiniest bit of benefit of doubt.

[KorvinStarmast]

What if Tom was a dour spirit until he met Radagast, who showed him a few new ways to use herbs.

[TheSummoner]

"Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow."

Two lines of the most basic description and they can't even get that right.

[Divayth Fyr]

Two lines of the most basic description and they can't even get that right.

I mean, I don't think anyone ever accused the showrunners of being competent :D

[Trafalgar]

I am really looking forward to the Tom Bombadil vs Sauron fight. It will start with a lightsaber duel between Tom and Sauron over a lava lake at the bottom of Mount Doom. Sauron will disarm Tom and the two will continue fighting using Kung Fu. The battle will end when Tom kicks Sauron really hard in the crotch and he retreats to Baradur.

[Eldan]

Ho Tom Bombadil, Ring-a-dillo-diglies
Merry Tom, Jolly Tom,
Kicked Sauron in the jigglies.