[pathfinder] Do Hellknights get vacations?

[Draconi Redfir]

planning a few characters for a possible campaign in the (distant) future, and thought it'd be neat if one of them was a hellknight-in-training.

problem is, the specific campaign I'm planning for begins at a festival. So I'm wondering if he'd even be allowed to attend or not, as it'd be a purely recreational thing to attend until the plot starts.

[Telonius]

planning a few characters for a possible campaign in the (distant) future, and thought it'd be neat if one of them was a hellknight-in-training.

problem is, the specific campaign I'm planning for begins at a festival. So I'm wondering if he'd even be allowed to attend or not, as it'd be a purely recreational thing to attend until the plot starts.

The easiest solution would probably be that he's there on a fact-finding mission. It's a festival, so plenty of opportunities for chaos and debauchery; the order wants to find out if it needs to keep a closer eye on it in the future. It's also a good opportunity to test out the resolve of one of its newest members. Can he resist the chaotic lure of the revelry?

[MonochromeTiger]

Similar to what Telonius is saying, you don't really need to be "on leave" to show up.

If anything it's entirely in line with the Hell Knights' way of operating to just show up when they're least wanted, ruin any fun and joy that happens to be present, and start spouting about how they're well within their rights because their laws supersede any local laws.

There is a reason they tend to be bad guys in Pathfinder games more often than not, well more reasons than their many monstrous actions and the fact that they're generally Lawful Evil on average with some of the "nicer" members just being Lawful Neutral. They stick their noses in, act like everything is their business and you're wrong for thinking otherwise, then persecute/prosecute based on the focus of their order with a heavy implication that order will get involved if anyone objects too loudly. They are the setting's go to wall of inhumane bureaucracy to bash players against, and as a player option they're an easy way of introducing someone who just stubbornly refuses to be left out of things when they think there's anything that might be going on.

[Draconi Redfir]

Ehh... not the vibe i was going for then, i don't want him to be "on duty" i want him to be "At a festival". it's possible he'd be there with other, non-hellknight people, so having them being a "spy looking out for chaos" wouldn't be okay in my eyes.


Maybe i won't make him a Hellknight then, i was working under the idea that they're kinda the "Cold, not cruel" type, like the SCP foundation, working to maintain order with agents of ALL lawful alignments, not just evil ones.

My thought was that they mostly fought to prevent Demons from taking over, monarchies from collapsing, unjust rebellions from rising, and protecting society in general. Sure, they might give you only a sack of food and a flask of water when you ask for food and medical supplies for ten people, but only because they don't have more that they can spare with them, not because they're being actively malicious.

With my experience in a past campaign, the Hellknights were there to challenge a cruel and usurping queen who violently took control of the kingdom after Her husband died, we never actually met or faced them as players, and they never did anything to threaten the people, even in the midst of city-wide riots.

[Telonius]

I'm going off of the description on the Pathfinder Wiki:

They are interested less in the social goodness and charity typical of paladins, but rather in the foundation and stringent maintenance of order at all costs. In their iron-handed exaction of law—specifically, the laws of their various orders and their home country of Cheliax—Hellknights emulate the organized and effective armies of Hell. They are not concerned with morality or methods, only results. If people cannot be trusted to obey the law out of their own senses of civility and social righteousness, Hellknights provide the need to obey out of fear of a master's stern hand.

They're not malicious necessarily, but they can definitely have cruel outcomes. From the description, it sounds like the organization is more "LAWFUL! (Evil)" than Lawful Evil, but it does lean that way.

If you're the DM, you can switch that ideology around however you want, but I'd suggest you make it clear to your players if there's a big change.

[Zanos]

My thought was that they mostly fought to prevent Demons from taking over, monarchies from collapsing, unjust rebellions from rising, and protecting society in general. Sure, they might give you only a sack of food and a flask of water when you ask for food and medical supplies for ten people, but only because they don't have more that they can spare with them, not because they're being actively malicious.

It varies by order and by individual. But, frankly, most Hellknights kind of are malicious. Despite the fact that Hellknights can technically be any Lawful alignment, the vast majority of published Hellknight characters are Lawful Evil, and the ones that aren't are Lawful Neutral. I can't recall seeing any Lawful Good hellknights. And that becomes pretty apparent when you look at what their orders actually do; destroying "unsanctioned" art and technology, capturing people to deliver them to slave camps, bargaining with fiends, draconian punishments(even by the standards of Golarion), torture, etc. Personally I think being willing to consistently work with people who torture people who kind of don't deserve it and don't care that they don't deserve it threatens even a Neutral alignment, but maybe Paizo doesn't agree.

Anyway, individual Hellknights can be not horrible people, but the work of almost every order is going to produce Evil because that's sort of the goal. And if there's threats that are active that are substantially worse than hellknights, like an army of demons or undead slaughtering everything in their path, Hellknights don't seem so bad. They're a lighter shade of black imo, not quite grey.

As to whether or not Hellknights get vacation, I don't recall reading anything that says one way or the other. But you'd have to be a pretty extreme machine so be on duty 24/7/365. Even most militaries have some kind of leave system if you're not actively at combat these days. I don't see why they couldn't have a week a year or something.

[MonochromeTiger]

Ehh... not the vibe i was going for then, i don't want him to be "on duty" i want him to be "At a festival". it's possible he'd be there with other, non-hellknight people, so having them being a "spy looking out for chaos" wouldn't be okay in my eyes.


Maybe i won't make him a Hellknight then, i was working under the idea that they're kinda the "Cold, not cruel" type, like the SCP foundation, working to maintain order with agents of ALL lawful alignments, not just evil ones.

My thought was that they mostly fought to prevent Demons from taking over, monarchies from collapsing, unjust rebellions from rising, and protecting society in general. Sure, they might give you only a sack of food and a flask of water when you ask for food and medical supplies for ten people, but only because they don't have more that they can spare with them, not because they're being actively malicious.

With my experience in a past campaign, the Hellknights were there to challenge a cruel and usurping queen who violently took control of the kingdom after Her husband died, we never actually met or faced them as players, and they never did anything to threaten the people, even in the midst of city-wide riots.

Everything, and I mean everything, comes down to how you and your table choose to interpret things. Hellknights as Paizo uses them tend to lean way more Lawful EVIL than anything but that's just how they use them and even with how they use them they've tried to make some occasional slight acknowledgement of "but the Lawful part is supposed to be super important and they could do good things guys, promise."

If your table takes that as a way of saying they'll step in and depose tyrants for going too far or that they're more Robocop than Judge Dread and that's what you want for your character? Take it. Run with it. Even Paizo's own staff would probably be more likely to sit back and go "oh cool somebody's doing something good with those guys" than "how dare you disrespect our vision."

The point of the game's worldbuilding is to give you something to interact with, a place that feels alive enough (or just detailed enough in some cases) to make some slight bit of sense with its own internal logic. Its point is not to throw in heavy obstructions and say there is an objectively wrong way to do things and even if it was that goes out the window the moment they release it to the world because every campaign in their setting from the short lived ones to the long running ones changes how the people who played in that game see the setting. Their view will never align 100% with the developers' ideas and all their personal experiences and things they or their GM introduce will only add to the variations from what's official.

So if Hellknights at your table are "cold, not cruel" and less aggressive and imposing than in Paizo's portrayals? That's fine, enjoy your game the way you want to it's not like their writers are going to break down your door over it.

It varies by order and by individual. But, frankly, most Hellknights kind of are malicious. Despite the fact that Hellknights can technically be any Lawful alignment, the vast majority of published Hellknight characters are Lawful Evil, and the ones that aren't are Lawful Neutral. I can't recall seeing any Lawful Good hellknights. And that becomes pretty apparent when you look at what their orders actually do; destroying "unsanctioned" art and technology, capturing people to deliver them to slave camps, bargaining with fiends, draconian punishments(even by the standards of Golarion), torture, etc. Personally I think being willing to consistently work with people who torture people who kind of don't deserve it and don't care that they don't deserve it threatens even a Neutral alignment, but maybe Paizo doesn't agree.

Paizo has kind of gradually stepped back on some of the worst of it, though that's also partially because they've been gradually attempting to distance themselves from content that people might be uncomfortable with. Even in the most recent background stuff I can think of Hellknights aren't exactly what I'd consider good people, the organization as a whole usually ranges from "the ends justify the means" fanaticism to "lol I'm the exact kind of sadistic monster the order is supposed to look down on but I can cite our entire code from memory and always point out a law you're breaking to justify it."

Anyway, individual Hellknights can be not horrible people, but the work of almost every order is going to produce Evil because that's sort of the goal. And if there's threats that are active that are substantially worse than hellknights, like an army of demons or undead slaughtering everything in their path, Hellknights don't seem so bad. They're a lighter shade of black imo, not quite grey.

Pretty much. Part of it is just how tied they are to Cheliax and house Thrune which are both some of the few remaining dedicated Bad Guys the setting has to throw at things that haven't either been killed off or "redeemed"; hyper-colonialists who make deals with Devils while justifying it with "us vs them" mentality and supremacist rhetoric. Hellknights have an entire part of their background dedicated to saying "we aren't Cheliax, we aren't house Thrune, we're our own group" with the exception of one order but Paizo still likes to throw them into whatever situation needs a big obvious oppressive legal system imposing its will whether they were welcomed in or not as the cheap and easy "look, Chelish oppression" signal.

As to whether or not Hellknights get vacation, I don't recall reading anything that says one way or the other. But you'd have to be a pretty extreme machine so be on duty 24/7/365. Even most militaries have some kind of leave system if you're not actively at combat these days. I don't see why they couldn't have a week a year or something.

Realistically any armed force would need dedicated downtime for their health, staying in a combat situation or even just readied for a combat situation and expecting to be sent into it for too long isn't good for someone at all. That said, RPGs tend not to take that into account too much, even Pathfinder which tries to fit with more modern ideals and expectations. Hellknights are already an entire organization that could charitably be described as fanatical and obsessive about their duty to the detriment of everything else so it wouldn't surprise me if the closest thing they really get to "vacation" amounts to "you aren't technically on assignment but you're always on call."