Jillian vs blue dwagon [obsessive overanalysis]

[mrocktor]

Many have argued that warlords, or Jillian specifically, are very powerful combat-wise, citing how Jillian soloed a blue dwagon (page 12). Can she really?

First off, its clear in that combat sequence that her gwiffon got an attack in before she did - so she didn't really solo the dwagon. Next, and more importantly, lets look at the stacks:

5 dwagons (pink, blue, yellow, red, black)
Stack bonus: +5

Jillian, 1x gwiffon, 6x orly
Stack bonus: +8
Warlord bonus: +9

Jillian's full stack can be seen on page 10, her bonus is mentioned on page 50.

So Jillian is running +3 in relation to what would be the case if she were actually soloing the dwagon (the difference between stack bonuses, she always will have the +9 advantage from her own warlord bonus). And the gwiffon got in an attack at +12 (and its fair to assume that gwiffons are fairly powerful air units, maybe the best Ansom has).

The orlies get toasted in the first "round" by the other dwagons, doing no apparent damage (despite being at +12 and outnumbering the dwagons 6v4, orlies suck).

In the following round the gwiffon gets owned by red and Jillian is captured (does a warlord get captured when all its stack is snuffed or did the red dwagon actually "defeat" Jillian in one swipe?).

So, Jillian does have a powerful attack but could she actually solo a dwagon? I'd say she might, but not undamaged herself. The fact that she had a bonus advantage and was actually 2v1 against the blue explains that engagement.

Fighting dwagons in a full +8 stack bonus and warlord bonus(es) would certainly not be a piece of cake for her and her gwiffons.

[SteveMB]

[obsessive overanalysis]

The GitP forum regulars are practically synonymous with obsessive overanalysis. It even says so on our business cards.

[jindra34]

also i would apreciate people considering the fact that she was not sent in to kill the dwagons at the start. If she is as powerful as assumed then it would have been a smart choice to send her in (with serious back up) first so that the dwagons would be mince meat...

[Fighteer]

It seems fairly likely that combat in Erfworld works in combat rounds, where each side simultaneously attacks and defends, with the outcome determining who takes damage. Furthermore, a Warlord can presumably allocate damage to his/her choice of units.

So basically, Jillian orders her orlies to tank the initial attacks of four dwagons, while she attacks the blue. The blue dragon rolls its attack vs. Jillian's defense, and Jillian wins the roll, dealing damage to the dwagon and killing it. (There may be an independent mechanic here that deals with mounted fighting.) Meanwhile, the other four dwagons win their rolls against the orlies, slaughtering them. End of round 1.

Round 2: The dwagons attack Jillian again - their stack bonus is lowered by one, while Jillian's is lowered by six. This time the red wins its combat roll and deals damage to Jillian, "defeating" her. Her gwiffon is also attacked and killed by another dwagon. End of round 2. End of combat.

[benthehater]

I hadn't considered that the Gwiffon she rides on counts as a unit, but it clearly did have an attack.

Good catch.

It makes me think more about Ansom's carpet bike.

[mrocktor]

The blue dragon rolls its attack vs. Jillian's defense, and Jillian wins the roll, dealing damage to the dwagon and killing it.

Units don't have a "damage" stat. Only "combat" (attack), "defense" and "hits".

The damage is therefore determined by the attack and defense rolls themselves.

Maybe the attacker rolls a die and adds his "attack", the defender rolls a die and adds his "defense" and the difference (if positive) is the damage (subtracted from hits).

Maybe the "attack" and "defense" ratings are the number of identical dice to be rolled. In this case the damage could be the difference in totals, or the number of opposed rolls the attacker wins.

In any case:

Jillian's attack@+17 + gwiffon attack@+17 > blue dwagon defense@+5 by a significant margin (i.e. enough to go though all the blue dwagon's hits).

On the other hand, the four other dwagon's attacks @+4 (assuming you lose bonuses during combat if units get croaked) > Jillian's defense@+11 also by a large margin.

[Fighteer]

Units don't have a "damage" stat. Only "combat" (attack), "defense" and "hits".

The damage is therefore determined by the attack and defense rolls themselves.

Maybe the attacker rolls a die and adds his "attack", the defender rolls a die and adds his "defense" and the difference (if positive) is the damage (subtracted from hits).

Maybe the "attack" and "defense" ratings are the number of identical dice to be rolled. In this case the damage could be the difference in totals, or the number of opposed rolls the attacker wins.
[snip]

Yes, those are both distinct possibilities. The other way it could be done is for each combatant to roll "combat" vs. the opponent's "defense" - this could be a single dice roll or multiples - and deal a number of hits equal to the difference.

So, in round one, Blue Dragon rolls [combat]+4+d# and subtracts Jillian's [defense]+17. Since the value <= 0, Jillian takes no damage. Jillian rolls [combat]+17+d# and subtract's Blue Dwagon's [defense]+4. The value > 0, so Jillian damages the dwagon. The problem here is that for high enough defense values, a unit could become completely immune to damage, which devalues light units. You can get around this somewhat by picking a very large die to roll, or by rolling multiple dice (2d6, 2d10, etc) for the attack roll, but then the relative values of attack and defense get much smaller.

The other possibility, allowing for somewhat less randomness, is that each attack is a number of dice that are compared against the opponent's defense. That makes the model ([combat]+[modifier])d# vs [defense], with each roll >= [defense] causing one hit. The problem here is that high attack bonuses virtually guarantee at least some damage per attack, which contradicts some of the combat results we've seen. This model would devalue heavy units in favor of large stacks or units with multiple attacks.

Overall, I think the first model is more likely.

Presumably, ranged units would have a "first strike" capability where they get to damage their opponent before the opponent counterattacks, as opposed to both attacks occuring simultaneously.

[Ultimatum479]

The Dwagons had a stack bonus themselves. Without their own stack bonus and without Jillian's stack bonus (even a single unit counts as a stack, right? Thus, Jillian's warlord bonus would apply to herself even if she's the only unit in the stack), I'm certain she could solo a Blue Dwagon.

[Fighteer]

The Dwagons had a stack bonus themselves. Without their own stack bonus and without Jillian's stack bonus (even a single unit counts as a stack, right? Thus, Jillian's warlord bonus would apply to herself even if she's the only unit in the stack), I'm certain she could solo a Blue Dwagon.

Ultimately, it shouldn't matter if the first unit in the stack grants a bonus to itself or not. In either case, the relative magnitude of the bonus would be the same for both sides.

[mrocktor]

The Dwagons had a stack bonus themselves

Thats why it says:

5 dwagons (pink, blue, yellow, red, black)
Stack bonus: +5

[Demented]

This brings up an interesting question: What's the battle order?

Jillian and Gwiffon attacked first, and were attacked last.
The blue dragon was attacked first, and never got to attack.
Jillian could choose which dragon to attack (as a warlord).
The dwagon stack had no warlord and attacked blindly.

On that order of events...
Could it be a turn-based system?
1. Ansom attacks first, sending Jillian+Gwiffon against the blue dragon. Then, are the orlies set on defensive, and don't attack? Do they simply lack initiative? Or does each side move once?
2. Whatever happens, the dwagons apparently move next, or the orlies attack them without consequence. The orlies then get munched, and the dragons have enough momentum to squish the gwiffon and nab Jillian before she next moves...

[Thrawn183]

We also don't know the starting "hp" of either character. The dragon could have been low, allowing for an easy one(two) shot. Jillian could have been low, allowing for an easy capture. They both could have been at full health, and combat is just ludicrously lethal.

[Krelon]

I like the idea where you roll a dice, add a bonus and compare to the defender.
d#+attack bonus vs. d#+defense bonus.
If the bonus is +8 for a max stack and +9 for Jillian (which are big bonusses) I'd vote for a d30 (yes, I have actually seen and rolled a real d30 myself!)

as for multiple hits: in some games very powerful units and/or magic items allow multiple damage (like every hit counts double or does 1d6 (XdY?) wounds and so on). Both dwagons and the rediculously big sword Jillian has look like they could do more than 1 damage per hit (see dwagons vs. battle bears/siege towers/gwiffon; Jillian vs. blue dwagon)

[Flakey]

They both could have been at full health, and combat is just ludicrously lethal.

I think the term is realistic. Most fps you can survive serveral grenades or near on a full clip of pistol bullets. Wghere in real life you would been down on the ground after the first shot. Wounded or dead.

[Moechi_Vill]

That depends entirely on who you are, what kind of gun it is, the distance and the location of where you are shot. The 9mm in the US army, I do not know of its fate most of the time needed several shots to put a bad guy down. There does exist the kind of pistols which need you to empty a full clip into a person's face to make sure.

I believe you're thinking of the effects of a heavy pistol against a military target or a medium pistol against the average civilian. Most multiplayer FPS games have you die on a grenade blast if you're close enough but the average single-person shooter does have the characteristics you mentioned.