Erfworld 85, Parson's Klog 8

[JazzManJim]

That's because you people would debate what will happen even if the next comic shows parson choosing one brand of jam over another to put on his toast.

It's filler, and its not really presenting anything we havent seen before.

Indeed.

Parson's philosophical turn is kind of strange to me, also. He's never struck me as a particularly philisophical character before (if he were, surely we would have seen a good helping of it, but the most we've gotten is "my life is crap and that's that") and, unless this is something that the authors ahve hidden from us also, seems a bit out of character considering that just a couple comics ago he was all full of vim and vigor about getting the troops up and rallying GK. Now he's angsty-boy.

I'm having a hard time believing that the death of Misty drove him to that, since I don't have any indication that he believes any of this is real enough to him to have that sort of impact. Sure, he seems to relate to GK characters as if they're real, but he steadfastly refuses, in his own internal dialogue, to accept that they are real. My working guess right now is that Parson is mentally unstable and always was, which makes a fantasy-fulfillment hallucination of the sort he's in plausible.

[SteveMB]

Indeed.

Parson's philosophical turn is kind of strange to me, also. He's never struck me as a particularly philisophical character before (if he were, surely we would have seen a good helping of it, but the most we've gotten is "my life is crap and that's that") and, unless this is something that the authors ahve hidden from us also, seems a bit out of character considering that just a couple comics ago he was all full of vim and vigor about getting the troops up and rallying GK. Now he's angsty-boy.

I'm having a hard time believing that the death of Misty drove him to that, since I don't have any indication that he believes any of this is real enough to him to have that sort of impact. Sure, he seems to relate to GK characters as if they're real, but he steadfastly refuses, in his own internal dialogue, to accept that they are real. My working guess right now is that Parson is mentally unstable and always was, which makes a fantasy-fulfillment hallucination of the sort he's in plausible.

I think he now believes on a gut level that he can "die here for reals", and this is his reaction. (That gives additional resonance to the "Kobayashi Maru scenario" comment -- recall that the point of that exercise wasn't to evaluate tactical prowess, but to test the cadet's reaction in the face of defeat and death.)

Logically, the death of Misty could be just as much a hallucination as the rest of it, but as you said yourself, Parson isn't really given to that sort of metaphysical thinking -- he's just reacting to the "booping hardcore" situation he experiences.

[fendrin]

I'm having a hard time believing that the death of Misty drove him to that, since I don't have any indication that he believes any of this is real enough to him to have that sort of impact. Sure, he seems to relate to GK characters as if they're real, but he steadfastly refuses, in his own internal dialogue, to accept that they are real. My working guess right now is that Parson is mentally unstable and always was, which makes a fantasy-fulfillment hallucination of the sort he's in plausible.

It's the uncertainty that's getting to him. Considering how many people disbelieve that this world could be any less real than it seems, I find it no surprise that Parson is reacting as if Erfworld was real, despite what his head tells him is rational.

Think of it this way. Most people, when they dream, are unaware that it is a dream. They accept it as reality until they wake up. While firmly dreaming, they do not doubt.

Erfworld is, to Parson, more real, more persistant than any dream he has ever had. It doesn't feel like a dream to him, it feels like he is awake. His mind refuses to accept this, but deep down he knows the truth.

For me, the biggest evidence that Erf is real is that Parson IS doubting. To quote (and of course translate) Descartes, "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."

[FoolishOwl]

That's because you people would debate what will happen even if the next comic shows parson choosing one brand of jam over another to put on his toast.

I think it's quite telling that, not only has Parson not told us yet what jam he puts on his toast, but we haven't noticed or commented upon the lack of such an obviously important detail.

[Stonedef]

True. From the sound of it though, Parson liked to plan 'no-win' scenarios to see how his players would get out of them. Interestingly, they seem to LIKE this. Honestly, that's the least believable thing I've seen in this comic.

on that point I disagree. I have played many scenrios in many types of games that we all knew would end up being a no-win for the players over the years (and there have been many of them... years that is.)

A battle of Thermopylae (The real one not The 300 trash), Bladensburg, Rorke's Rift (okay so the Brits managed to pull that one off) Horatio at the bridge, or a Boromir style last stand are a lot of fun IMO if played to the hilt and correctly.

[fendrin]

on that point I disagree. I have played many scenrios in many types of games that we all knew would end up being a no-win for the players over the years (and there have been many of them... years that is.)

A battle of Thermopylae (The real one not The 300 trash), Bladensburg, Rorke's Rift (okay so the Brits managed to pull that one off) Horatio at the bridge, or a Boromir style last stand are a lot of fun IMO if played to the hilt and correctly.

From a role-playing perspective, I 100% agree. However, Parson seems to run turn-based strategy games, bot role-playing games. I have yet to meet a TBS player who enjoyed regularly being in no-win scenarios. Tough scenarios, yes, but not no-win.

[multilis]

"who enjoyed regularly being in no-win scenarios"

Not sure that "regularly" no wins is known. Parson may like suprise/variation from easy to really hard with his seeming mix of stategy and rpg.

I enjoy suprise/change in TBS. Winning can get boring.

I remember being the top dog (soon to be winner) in a game and finding it boring. My closest ally in that game asked me to sub in for him for a few turns in his other game while he went on vacation. He had a no win situation, his race specialised in minefields which made them extra good in defense, his main enemy may have intentionally expoited a cheat, there was bad blood. He wasn't going to win the game no matter what but he had fun holding off a vastly superior force long enough to make sure they wouldn't win either... he managed to survive to the end when everyone surrendered to another minefield specialist race that quietly became twice as big as the rest. (if they couldn't beat minefield specialist twice as small, they didn't have a chance against one twice as big as them with one of best players in command).

I found his no win game much more interesting than my boring mop up game where they couldnt seem to find a way to unite against me even with my help.

[FoolishOwl]

The way I know that Erf is not his creation is because in his creation he would have been playing the bad guys (as he likes playing them), and he had his players in a no-win scenario. That means that in his scenario, the good guys were in the volcano city and the bad guys were attacking. That, or in his scenario, the volcano city had an unknown advantage that GK does not. Either way, it is clear evidence that his scenario was significantly different.

That's a really good point.

If Parson's design relied on conventional fantasy good guys and bad guys, then I'd expect that the volcano city would be the base for the bad guys. I think I remember an entry on tvtropes.org about volcanos being a typical setting for evil overlords' strongholds, but that site's search engine is down.

[fendrin]

"who enjoyed regularly being in no-win scenarios"

Not sure that "regularly" no wins is known. Parson may like suprise/variation from easy to really hard with his seeming mix of stategy and rpg.

I enjoy suprise/change in TBS. Winning can get boring.

True on all counts, I suppose. Of course, there is a difference between "no-win" and "really really difficult, requiring major out-of-the-box thinking and a lot of luck".

The latter has an infinite amount more appeal to me, and I would hazard to guess, the majority of TBS gamers. Finding not one, but FOUR in the same geographical vicinity is unlikely at best.

EDIT: Just to be clear, this is more of a humorous observation than a nitpick, and it should never ever be mistaken for a complaint.

[Occasional Sage]

True on all counts, I suppose. Of course, there is a difference between "no-win" and "really really difficult, requiring major out-of-the-box thinking and a lot of luck".

The latter has an infinite amount more appeal to me, and I would hazard to guess, the majority of TBS gamers. Finding not one, but FOUR in the same geographical vicinity is unlikely at best.

EDIT: Just to be clear, this is more of a humorous observation than a nitpick, and it should never ever be mistaken for a complaint.

There's a limit to it, but I do honestly like no-win situations. For one thing, they leave me free to try wild ideas just to see if they hold water, because if I'm not going to win anyway, why not? Sometimes that will lead to a solid idea that I can use in situations which I can plausibly win, albeit with some refinement. For another, they're good to play, and replay, and replay again to push the envelope and see how much you can make the unstoppable juggernaut bleed. That can push your skills to a whole new level.

Parson's got four people who are used to crazy challenges (he knows them, and thought it was plausible that one of them spiked his drink with hallucinogens; how bad are they used to these games being?!) pushing the envelope. He's gotta be able to put up when it's on the line, or he wouldn't have the reputation he does with them.

I seem to have strayed off my topic. Unwinnable situations are good for you. They make you a flexible thinker and can inspire audacious, effective strategies. I don't like a steady diet of getting my boop served to me on a platter, but it's quite often fun.

[Jayngfet]

new idea, parsons just a figment of stanleys imagination, and he's really chained to the walls of some dungeon somewhere, mumbling to himself

[Surfing HalfOrc]

new idea, parsons just a figment of stanleys imagination, and he's really chained to the walls of some dungeon somewhere, mumbling to himself

No, he's going to step out of the shower, and say, "What a strange dream I just had."

[SteveMB]

Erfworld is, to Parson, more real, more persistent than any dream he has ever had. It doesn't feel like a dream to him, it feels like he is awake. His mind refuses to accept this, but deep down he knows the truth.

For me, the biggest evidence that Erf is real is that Parson IS doubting. To quote (and of course translate) Descartes, "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am."

Another interesting aspect that occurs to me is the contrast between the serious musings on the clash between the cute trappings and the deadly serious situation in the current Klog and the simple irritation at the "cutesy-boop" features of Erfworld in Klog #2.

[macraw83]

However, I'm still wondering what it may mean that he only half gets the jokes. They don't seem like such complicated jokes. Also, it's seemed odd to me that the situation he's in was, by his own description, almost exactly like the game scenario he'd designed, and yet he doesn't seem to be able to draw upon that knowledge directly. I wonder if this is something like a dream state, in which he both remembers and doesn't remember his real world knowledge.

It's not so much that he lacks the mental capacity to understand the jokes. It just so happens that we are just reading the story, we have come to expect the jokes. He is in a rather stressful situation as the warlord, so he's not really expecting there to be jokes during wartime. As in he would probably understand the references at any other time.

[Vreejack]

It's not so much that he lacks the mental capacity to understand the jokes. It just so happens that we are just reading the story, we have come to expect the jokes. He is in a rather stressful situation as the warlord, so he's not really expecting there to be jokes during wartime. As in he would probably understand the references at any other time.

To be technical, they aren't really jokes at all, they are just amusingly detailed parallels. They SHOULD be amusing, that is, but their context is really bizarre. I think you are right when you imply that we would really need to try to put ourselves in parson's shoes right now to understand his comments. People he knows are dying, he is fighting for his life, and the world is making a KISS joke. What is that about? Does that mean that someone somewhere—one of the Titans, perhaps—does not take all of this very seriously? Thus Parson's confusion about whether he should take it seriously or not himself. Can he afford to risk it? And yet giving up and laughing it all off might seem very tempting to him.

[Jayngfet]

No, he's going to step out of the shower, and say, "What a strange dream I just had."

which one, parson or Stanley, hamster or tool?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

which one, parson or Stanley, hamster or tool?

Yes.

And a few random words to meet the ten character minimum.

[pendell]

So it seems I was about the only Erf reader who found this Klog worthwhile, relevant to the story and interestingly foreboding?

TBH, I've completely lost interest. I originally signed on for the wargaming tie-in, I didn't like watching the complete owning of Hamster in the last turn, and since then the comic has essentially ground to a halt. Ground to a halt for excellent personal reasons ( a marriage, a new family , a frightening medical emergency) but ground to a halt nonetheless. Plus, I just don't find the characters sympathetic enough to really care about them anymore. Hamster's a fat slob. Wanda's an evil villain. And what they're fighting for, essentially, is their own survival and nothing else. Why should I care? What's noble and heroic about that?

That, plus the "Knights in Stanley's Service" completely broke my suspension of disbelief. I dunno why that broke it when the Elvis gods didn't ,but break it did. Somehow, somewhere, it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Somewhere along the way, Erfworld stopped being a magical, enchanting world and became just a webcomic. A webcomic it became a chore to read.

So I'm done. I'll check back in a couple months to see how the story's progressed, and maybe then I'll change my mind.

I dunno. Maybe I should have just gone off quietly and not said anything. But I used to be a fan and I feel I owe Rob and Jamie this. I certainly wish them well in their personal lives, and hope things get better, both for them and for Erfworld.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[The Bunny]

I think perhaps because the regularity of the updates has gone down during a drastic shift in both the tone and storyline of erfworld, a lot of a people are getting frustrated with it.
I know that didn't add a lot to the conversation, but it's just my opinion. I think especially because the last 2 updates have been klogs (hope I used that correctly), that the writers have somehow abandoned the comic and it's readers in some small way. Obviously since reading through the forums and seeing how the writers have tried to keep us updated that might not be the case, but it still feels like it.
Just the wrong timing in the script to be downing the updates and the content in the updates themselves.

[maus]

Erfworld just needs to end and come back later. There are just too many problems with the schedule and lack of communication from the creators. It would seem to me that what should have been a bonus page has served as an actual entry for the last what, three weeks?

Don't get me wrong the "Bonus Page" Klogs are cool if they come along in a week where we actually get a comic, or maybe they get followed by a comic, but when they stand alone and sit there for weeks then the strip and everything that has been done before goes very stale.

There are so many who say they have given up on Erfworld and that's sad, since I don't think they would have if there had been a message or a sign that said something to the effect of "technical difficulties" or "Gone Ice Fishing... Back in January." Then maybe people would have seen that and left coming back in January to see if the story resumed.

I guess what I'm saying is that Erfworld needs to communicate better and then post a filler page that says roughly when they might be back. Rich does it when he's deathly ill, so I can't see why Erfworld can't.

[Drumbum42]

I enjoy erfworld. And I would like to know if or when it is comming back. I don't mind if the creators take a break, I just would like some time table. Even though some think the story line has declined in quality, (the tool killing their best chance for victory was depressing) I think the challenge could make a very interesting story line.

It is a very good comic, and I hope it comes back soon.

[DeathQuaker]

I enjoy erfworld. And I would like to know if or when it is comming back. I don't mind if the creators take a break, I just would like some time table. Even though some think the story line has declined in quality, (the tool killing their best chance for victory was depressing) I think the challenge could make a very interesting story line.

It is a very good comic, and I hope it comes back soon.

Please see the sticky thread probably right below this one, where the date is announced in the subject line.

[martingale]

And what they're fighting for, essentially, is their own survival and nothing else. Why should I care? What's noble and heroic about that?

Star Wars:
Luke: But they're going to kill her!
Han: Better her than me
Luke: She's rich, you know
Han: Rich?
Luke: Rich, powerful...listen, if you were to rescue her, you'd get more wealth than you can imagine!

The Road Warrior:
Max: No thanks.
Papagallo: What is it with you? What are you looking for?
Come on, Max, everyone's looking for something.
You happy out there, are you?
Eh? Wandering one day blurring into another?
You're a scavenger, Max. You're a maggot.
Do you know that? You're living off the corpse of the old world.
Tell me your story, Max. What burned you out, huh?
Kill one man too many? See too many people die? Lose some family?
Oh, so that's it. You lost some family. That make you something special, does it?
Listen to me.
Do you think you're the only one that's suffered?
We've all been through it in here, but we haven't given up.
We're still human beings with dignity.
But you, you're out there with the garbage.
You're nothing!

Character development. We know both Han and Max start as self-concerned loners and become heroes in their respective stories.

Parson starts out as a loser. I hate to call him that, but, at least we can say that he doesn't have a lot going for him and he hates his life. Plus this strip http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0014.html (compare with http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/beck/loser_20015293.html) supports the idea that the creators intend for us to think of him as a loser.

Has Parson developed as a character? I think so. He has a gained a sense of purpose and determination and was even willing to risk his life to do what he saw as the right thing. Though there is some question about whether his life really was at risk - maybe if he's disbanded he just gets sent back to Earth. And there is some question about whether fighting for the "bad guys" is really the right thing. Less ambiguous was his decision to give Misty a proper burial. Still, it seems to me that he has started down the path of transforming from loser to hero. He's not there yet. But in this process of transformation, a grand story will be told (or so I hope).

[purplearcanist]

Wait...

Erfworld is Parson's game board, if you notice, Gobwin Knob is on this comic, on the game board. This reminds me of Mirrormask, where a girl's drawings really composed an alternate world.

[SteveMB]

Wait...

Erfworld is Parson's game board, if you notice, Gobwin Knob is on this comic, on the game board.

That much is obvious. What it means is less so.