Erfworld 87, Page 79

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Trouble with this is that it requires more cunning than Stanley usually displays. I think he's a pretty decisive guy. He likes to do things now, so heading off to wait around would be out of character for him, besides being intellectualy abnormal for him. If it were any one else I would suspect that he was pulling something cunning, but but like Ansom said, "This is beyond him." Stanley seems to have some definite destination in mind, with some particular task to perform.

If he were just fleeing he would not need the foolamancer; the dwagons are the fastest things out there.

And leaving the city just in time for the gobwins/hobgobwins to revolt and put King Saline to the sword, returning just in time to drive the rebels away?

Taking powerful spellcasters/witnesses out of the city?

Stanley knows when to wait, and let other people do his dirty work.

That, or the whole "Stanley Rises to Power" strip was yet another Red Herring.

[Vreejack]

And leaving the city just in time for the gobwins/hobgobwins to revolt and put King Saline to the sword, returning just in
time to drive the rebels away?

Why do you say "just in time?" He had to return at some point, and someone at Gobwin Knob might have gotten the word out. In any event, the gobwins might have seen this as an excellent time to attack, especially if they did not know that Stanley was the heir. They might have expected Stanley to disband when Saline fell. Also, it no longer appears that the gobwins are allies. It seems to me that their leader---whoever it was who made the alleged deal with Stanley---was executed and the rest were taken prisoner and offered positions. So if there was a deal then either the gobwin leader was exceptionally stupid or Stanley is much, much more cunning than he appears.

Taking powerful spellcasters/witnesses out of the city?

Sizemore was with him but he saw no reason to doubt Stanley's motives. Vinny seems to give him the benefit of the doubt. Also, Stan;ey does not value Sizemore very highly, and cannot even be bothered to learn his name, so why would he be concerned about "the turd guy" when there were probably other casters left behind that he could have taken.

Stanley knows when to wait, and let other people do his dirty work.

That, or the whole "Stanley Rises to Power" strip was yet another Red Herring. [/QUOTE]

Red herring? Possibly. But it also explains why he is not of noble blood, and it explains Ansom and Vinny's earlier conversation.

[SteveMB]

Also, Stanley does not value Sizemore very highly, and cannot even be bothered to learn his name, so why would he be concerned about "the turd guy" when there were probably other casters left behind that he could have taken.

Sizemore's account says that Stanley took a number of casters. We don't know how many casters were in GK back then or how powerful they were (in particular, we don't know if Wanda was working for GK at that time).

[sihnfahl]

so why would he be concerned about "the turd guy" when there were probably other casters left behind that he could have taken.

Well, what's one of Sizemore's skills? Digging. What did GK have? Gems. What was Sizemore's job? Making tunnels to take out the gems to feed the treasury.

Definitely useful there. Doesn't mean that Stanley has to know his name or care; as long as Sizemore does his job and make the tunnels for the mines (not to mention bolster GK's defenses), it's all good.

[Vreejack]

Well, what's one of Sizemore's skills? Digging. What did GK have? Gems. What was Sizemore's job? Making tunnels to take out the gems to feed the treasury.

Definitely useful there. Doesn't mean that Stanley has to know his name or care; as long as Sizemore does his job and make the tunnels for the mines (not to mention bolster GK's defenses), it's all good.

Sizemore said that the gems had run out. We don't know when they ran out but if Stanley valued him for his mining skills then he would have remembered him as "the gem guy" or "the tunnel guy" and not "the turd guy." Aftwer all, he doesn't refer to Wanda as "the corpse lady."

[sihnfahl]

Sizemore said that the gems had run out. We don't know when they ran out but if Stanley valued him for his mining skills then he would have remembered him as "the gem guy" or "the tunnel guy" and not "the turd guy." Aftwer all, he doesn't refer to Wanda as "the corpse lady."

Once the gems had run out, then all Sizemore would have been good for at GK is making crap golems. "The Turd Guy".

[hidden_agenda]

Something that had just occurred to me...

If Gobwin Knob is a multi-hex city, why couldn't Parson turn it into a Stalingrad-esque scenario?

Meaning, collapsing the tunnels and destroy the surface structure on purpose to make it even tougher for the invasion force.

After all, moving the entire force left to him below ground and forcing Ansom to fight the entire fight has several advantages:

1. it neutralizes the big pieces that we've seen (griffons, tree-ents, siege engines, and cloth golems). flying units have no advantage, archery / artillery is minimized.

2. much of the remaining GK forces have no issue with tunnel fighting. of their enemies, only the marbits are noted as underground creatures. not sure if erfworld has sight rules, but certainly in most fantasy worlds, goblins and undead have no issues fighting in the dark, but humans and elves do.

this will force the fighting to be much harder on one part of the alliance and possibly make it crack.

also, with Sizemore, the GK forces have a far greater degree of freedom than the opposition.

Just some thoughts...

[Vreejack]

Something that had just occurred to me...

If Gobwin Knob is a multi-hex city, why couldn't Parson turn it into a Stalingrad-esque scenario?

Meaning, collapsing the tunnels and destroy the surface structure on purpose to make it even tougher for the invasion force.

After all, moving the entire force left to him below ground and forcing Ansom to fight the entire fight has several advantages:

1. it neutralizes the big pieces that we've seen (griffons, tree-ents, siege engines, and cloth golems). flying units have no advantage, archery / artillery is minimized.

2. much of the remaining GK forces have no issue with tunnel fighting. of their enemies, only the marbits are noted as underground creatures. not sure if erfworld has sight rules, but certainly in most fantasy worlds, goblins and undead have no issues fighting in the dark, but humans and elves do.

this will force the fighting to be much harder on one part of the alliance and possibly make it crack.

also, with Sizemore, the GK forces have a far greater degree of freedom than the opposition.

Just some thoughts...

The main problem with the Stalingrad scenario is simply that Parson is ridiculously out-numbered. The Russians had plenty of cannon-fodder, Parson does not. Ansom can swarm over every tower and tunnel and establish a secure position without worrying about losses.

Sizemore would have been the key. If Ansom had no siege weapons and still had dwagons to face then he would have to come in the bottom, but Sizemore could theoretically seal off all of Ansom's forces underground and smother them all. With much of his siege intact--and air superiority--Ansom can just come in over the wall.

I think Parson's best bet here is simply to surrender.

[hidden_agenda]

The main problem with the Stalingrad scenario is simply that Parson is ridiculously out-numbered. The Russians had plenty of cannon-fodder, Parson does not. Ansom can swarm over every tower and tunnel and establish a secure position without worrying about losses.

But it could very well be argued that the key to Stalingrad was the German's (or rather Hitler's) wish to take the city by main assault. This forced the Germans to abandon fluid mobile warfare that favored them for static warfare. The deciding factor may be have been the Russians cannon fodders (they had cannon fodder in other conquered city scenario as well).

Ruin cities have remarkable ability to absorb damage and favors the defender.

Flooding the tunnel with troops really isn't an option when your enemy can bottleneck the tunnels and collapse them, (plus dig new ones at the same time). In a narrow tunnel, the 25:1 superiority really doesn't come into play.

Sizemore would have been the key. If Ansom had no siege weapons and still had dwagons to face then he would have to come in the bottom, but Sizemore could theoretically seal off all of Ansom's forces underground and smother them all. With much of his siege intact--and air superiority--Ansom can just come in over the wall.

Well, then why bother defend the walls? Instead, surprise Ansome when he goes over the walls. Rather than an enemy capital greeting him with resources and structures, give him a ruin city packed with traps and guerrilas moving through tunnels. Move the treasury somewhere underground and keep it mobile.

This effectively neutralizes Ansom's advantages in air and siege. Units in ruin buildings and underground might have cover against air, and the siege has nothing to destroy. Drag the battle out from days into weeks and months, and try to destroy the enemy by a multitude of pinpricks.

Parson had described the incoming army as "charging rhino." What if this was a bull-fighting gig? The bull charge can easily kill the matador. The point is for the matador to let the charging bull hit air and waste its mass advantage and bleed it.

I think Parson's best bet here is simply to surrender.

Well, if surrender is an option then I would agree. But if surrender is not an option (in game terms, if the entire faction just disbands when it surrenders), then there isn't much point.

In any case, although surrender and "Stalingrad" both makes for plausible solutions to the difficult conundrum, neither makes for satisfying web-comic (I think). So the "meta-game" here would seem to indicate that the resolution is otherwise...

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Sizemore said that the gems had run out. We don't know when they ran out but if Stanley valued him for his mining skills then he would have remembered him as "the gem guy" or "the tunnel guy" and not "the turd guy." Aftwer all, he doesn't refer to Wanda as "the corpse lady."

Sizemore didn't say WHEN the gems ran out. Just that they did, in the end, run out. I'm thinking Stanley burned through a lot of cash as he lost city after city.

After all the gems were mined out, Sizemore was shifted to latrine duty, and Stanley, being the ever sensitive type, started with "the Turd Guy" nickname. That seems to be something Stanley would do to someone he doesn't consider "valuable" to his current plans and missions. Wanda still has value in returning troops to the field, and in possibly large numbers, keeping his forces roughly equal in size after a battle as before.

Now to the other arguments...

I think Stanley is quite cunning, and that he convinced the hobgoblin leader to try to take the city and kill Saline IV with some sort of "split everything 50-50," deal, but returned with a "Wrath of the Titans" approach. Kill the hobgobwin leader and HIS inner circle, and nobody knows for sure that Stanley was in on the regicide. Especially nobody from his own side.

Of course, if Stanley was so cunning, why did he allow Jillian to be returned the battlefield? Ansom DIDN'T exactly come flying to her side, he stayed within the safety of the column until he went dwagon hunting. So, why return a +9 Barbarian Warlord to the other side? Especially one that can't be ordered directly to betray and attack Ansom or the Coalition?

I might suck at chess, but I don't hand queens out to my opponents with a "Hey, you don't need to limit yourself to the 8th rank. Put her anywhere on the board you like." Kind of a policy I have.

[SteveMB]

Sizemore didn't say WHEN the gems ran out. Just that they did, in the end, run out. I'm thinking Stanley burned through a lot of cash as he lost city after city.

After all the gems were mined out, Sizemore was shifted to latrine duty, and Stanley, being the ever sensitive type, started with "the Turd Guy" nickname. That seems to be something Stanley would do to someone he doesn't consider "valuable" to his current plans and missions. Wanda still has value in returning troops to the field, and in possibly large numbers, keeping his forces roughly equal in size after a battle as before.

Also, Wanda appears to be a frequent confidant and adviser. Sizemore is generally "out of sight and out of mind" (my impression is that Stanley asked what he was doing in the situation room because he normally doesn't have any business there -- the guards didn't stop him, so he must be allowed there, but it's still unusual).

Of course, if Stanley was so cunning, why did he allow Jillian to be returned the battlefield? Ansom DIDN'T exactly come flying to her side, he stayed within the safety of the column until he went dwagon hunting. So, why return a +9 Barbarian Warlord to the other side? Especially one that can't be ordered directly to betray and attack Ansom or the Coalition?

Wanda assured Stanley (and Parson) that Ansom "has always been predictable in this matter". He trusted Wanda, and thus had every reason to assume that the original ambush plan would work as advertised -- he'd get Ansom, the Arkenpliers, whatever other enemy warlords and units came along, and recapture or croak Jillian anyway.

As for the other point, Wanda described the limits of her control over Jillian ("...not commands. Particularly not a direct command to betray Ansom"), but Stanley either flat-out didn't understand that or (IMO more likely) refused to accept it (as shown when he orders Wanda to do exactly what she'd explained was impossible).

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Wanda assured Stanley (and Parson) that Ansom "has always been predictable in this matter". He trusted Wanda, and thus had every reason to assume that the original ambush plan would work as advertised -- he'd get Ansom, the Arkenpliers, whatever other enemy warlords and units came along, and recapture or croak Jillian anyway.

As for the other point, Wanda described the limits of her control over Jillian ("...not commands. Particularly not a direct command to betray Ansom"), but Stanley either flat-out didn't understand that or (IMO more likely) refused to accept it (as shown when he orders Wanda to do exactly what she'd explained was impossible).

So, when Ansom DOESN'T do what he was predicted to do, you just bull on ahead with the plan? Leave everything exactly where it was, don't set up for a contingency plan, but just hope for the best? Bet EVERYTHING on a single throw of the dice?

I always get the feeling that several pages were forgotten somehow. There seems to be a gap between releasing Jillian into the wild, and Jillian flying to the rescue.

I'm giving up on the "Jillian shouldn't have randomly found the dwagons" argument since so many people seem to want to give it a pass, but I still don't see why Jillian should have been released. She was just too powerful, too much of a wild card to risk freeing like that.

[fendrin]

I still don't see why Jillian should have been released. She was just too powerful, too much of a wild card to risk freeing like that.

Wanda, a master manipulator, convinced Stanley that the risk of losing Jillian was worth the benefit of croaking Ansom. Truth be told, it was. Unfortunately, like all plans, it had less than 100% chance of success.

Maybe Vinny had a lucky guess, maybe he's got an informant in GK, maybe he's a closet predictamancer.

The ambush was, to use a sports metaphor, a hail mary pass.

Wanda, of course, had other motivations for wanting Jillian released. Stanley probably would have croaked Jillian once Wanda had 'extracted' all pertinent information form her, and Wanda did not want that to happen (though her specific motivations are debatable, I think it's because she truly loves Jillian).

[warning]wild speculation ahead![/warning]

Hmm, come to think of it, Wanda seems like the perfect informant for Vinny. They both have that whole undead-theme thing going on, she thinks very little of Stanley, nd, if Stanley's accounts of her ability are any measure, she quite possibly might be able to send thinkagrams.

Maybe she's not in love with Jillian, she's in love with Vinny, and his (implied) activities with the Archons might have pushed her over the edge.

Or hey, if Vinny is a vampire as he seems, maybe Wanda is his spawn...

[SteveMB]

So, when Ansom DOESN'T do what he was predicted to do, you just bull on ahead with the plan?

Parson did raise the question "What if he doesn't take the bait?" Apparently, Stanley found Wanda's assurances that he would take the bait more convincing (which is understandable -- Ansom has a history of riding to the rescue, and Stanley knows and trusts Wanda better than Parson).

Leave everything exactly where it was, don't set up for a contingency plan, but just hope for the best? Bet EVERYTHING on a single throw of the dice?

When you're outnumbered 25 to 1, a Hail Mary pass is probably the only chance you have.

I always get the feeling that several pages were forgotten somehow. There seems to be a gap between releasing Jillian into the wild, and Jillian flying to the rescue.

The transition between setting up the original ambush plan and the aftermath of it failing (or, more exactly, being scrubbed when Ansom didn't show up) was a bit abrupt, true.

I still don't see why Jillian should have been released. She was just too powerful, too much of a wild card to risk freeing like that.

We know that she's been captured before, enough times for Ansom to refer to it as a repeated pattern. (We don't know for a fact that each of her "escapes" was engineered, but that seems to be the obvious implication.)

Apparently, Wanda has Stanley convinced that the cycle of capture-interrogate-release is a good idea (whether or not it actually is). Ergo, he's willing to go along with it (er, think of it himself ) again.

[wyattbatman]

When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled...

Best. Quote. Ever.
Bravely bold Sir Robin, rode forth from Camelot, he was not afraid to die, oh brave Sir Robin!

[SteveMB]

Something I just noticed -- in the scene where Stanley is made Heir Designate, enough of the boss' (presumably King Saline's) desk is visible to show that it had the gargoyle motif back then.

Just a bit of artistic inertia, or an indication that Team Plaid was color-coded as "the bad guys" even before Stanley took over?