Perhaps the best comment I've ever heard about "vs." debates:
"Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted." - Christopher Lee
Dervag's won the thread. Your reward is one Auto-Win Token, good for any Vs battle and for any side so long as it isn't not Darth Revan.
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can somebody enlighten me? I know this is probably a crime but I've never read a superman comic. batman and hellboy are just so much more interesting
Silver Age Superman is both a jerk and invincible. That's all that matters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tar Palantir
Your reward is one Auto-Win Token, good for any Vs battle and for any side so long as it isn't not Darth Revan.
I happen to like Darth Revan. They could have done her characterization better, and probably done the sequel better, but she was an overall enjoyable character for everyone who played as her.
Last edited by ZeroNumerous : 08-12-2009 at 06:41 PM.
I happen to like Darth Revan. They could have done her characterization better, and probably done the sequel better, but she was an overall enjoyable character for everyone who played as her.
Him, darth revan was male in every sense of the word. Canon is VERY clear here.
Yeah, that tends to be fairly solid. Subject to a lot of fanon explanations and alternate character interpretations, but as long as you don't go too far back in the series the events of canon are usually pretty cut-and-dry.
There we have it. Christopher Lee himself decrees VS debates idiotic. And you do NOT mess with Christopher Lee.
Technically, that's not what he said. He said the question was idiotic - obviously. That guy should have known that Dracula could kick Saruman's butt!
On a more general note, I don't think there's anything wrong with Vs Threads so long as they aren't taken as a consideration of the character's (or works') worth. Just because I think Character A could beat Character B in a fight doesn't mean that Character B or the work he's from is inferior to Character A (or the work he's from). But I think Vs. Threads often come down to that, and people line up behind their favorite character.
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The most idiotic VS thread I ever read was Batman VS Solid Snake. Only the person asking it said there would be no prep time, a gigantic open area, in broad daylight, and Snake wasn't allowed any of his win items, which for some reason, included the FAMAS.
However, I told the person that under all circumstances, Solid Snake wins, because he IS Batman, only more badass. You see, Snake smokes. And if Batman lit up a Marb Smooth every once in a while, he'd have a badass voice, and would be just like Solid Snake. That's right everyone, Batman wants to be Snake. Even Adam West Batman wants to be Snake!
But on a serious note, putting limitations in VS threads is pretty much what makes them so ridiculous.
Last edited by Fiendish_Dire_Moose : 08-12-2009 at 10:43 PM.
But on a serious note, putting limitations in VS threads is pretty much what makes them so ridiculous.
Some limitations are necessary so that there's actually any sort of contest at all, and some are good for getting the people contributing (and I use the term loosely) on the same page so it doesn't devolve into "Batman wins every time with preparation."
Until, y'know, everyone starts ignoring those limitations and it devolves into "Batman wins every time with preparation." But it's a valiant effort, and works of fiction that have in-universe I Win Buttons should have them limited so that the conflict is even feasible.
Some limitations are necessary so that there's actually any sort of contest at all, and some are good for getting the people contributing (and I use the term loosely) on the same page so it doesn't devolve into "Batman wins every time with preparation."
Until, y'know, everyone starts ignoring those limitations and it devolves into "Batman wins every time with preparation." But it's a valiant effort, and works of fiction that have in-universe I Win Buttons should have them limited so that the conflict is even feasible.
The point of a VS thread is non-existent, so throwing limitations only puts on bias on the character you like. For example:
Samus VS Simon Belmont. Only, in the interest of "fairness" Samus gets no suit, and can only use that pistol from SSBB. Who wins? SIMON! Why? because I took away Samus' ability to win.
Let's take a look at the Snake vs Batman.
No limitations? Snake owns with the rocket launcher.
Take away the Rocket Launcher? Snake owns with a P90.
Take away any weapons Snake might possibly ever get? Batman wins because now HE has weapons.
Make it a fist fight? You'll get better results playing Rock'em Sock'em Robots. No one really knows what the Ultimate Martial Art is. It's a stupid question anyway.
Putting limitations on "VS" questions, only removes the answer of whom would actually win.
Let's take a look here: Star Wars Universe vs Star Trek Universe: Borgs. What horrors would they wreak upon the world?
Take away the Borgs. Is it really the Star Trek Universe anymore?
Limitations don't make them interesting, they take away the question. Samus would pretty much whoop anyone, why? Cause she's got the gear to do so! Take it away, and yes, she's useless.
Prep time in VS battles is also always a no. A true test of a warrior's mettle is their ability to fly by the seat of their pants.The only way VS questions can be truly unbiased is without limitations, no preparation time, and going strictly by canon.
I disagree. Limitations are interesting. Unfortunately, a lot of times the limitations reduce a character from 'broad speculation with some specific references' to 'extremely vague speculation with maybe one specific reference', which makes a difficult subject to discuss, moreso.
...and Revan is one of those instances where a goodly portion of the fanbase pretty much just give canon the finger.
Myself included.
Star Wars canon is one of those things where people have started to realize that the guys in charge are so far off their rockers that it's probably for the best to ignore them.
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I disagree. Limitations are interesting. Unfortunately, a lot of times the limitations reduce a character from 'broad speculation with some specific references' to 'extremely vague speculation with maybe one specific reference', which makes a difficult subject to discuss, moreso.
I'll give up that SOME limitations can make it interesting. Like, Who wins in a dog fight: Fox or Luke?
Obviously Luke since he learned how to force strangle. Let's throw a limitation in there: No Force Powers. How do we determine the winner? EPIC DOG FIGHT!
However I have seen absolutely nobody ask a VS question where the limitation isn't solely to gimp a character in the interrogator's favor.
I'll give up that SOME limitations can make it interesting. Like, Who wins in a dog fight: Fox or Luke?
Obviously Luke since he learned how to force strangle. Let's throw a limitation in there: No Force Powers. How do we determine the winner? EPIC DOG FIGHT!
However I have seen absolutely nobody ask a VS question where the limitation isn't solely to gimp a character in the interrogator's favor.
I blame that primarily on the fact that most of us who would use limitations in that way are not interested in making VS topics.
Limitations don't make them interesting, they take away the question. Samus would pretty much whoop anyone, why? Cause she's got the gear to do so! Take it away, and yes, she's useless.
Prep time in VS battles is also always a no. A true test of a warrior's mettle is their ability to fly by the seat of their pants.The only way VS questions can be truly unbiased is without limitations, no preparation time, and going strictly by canon.
Except with some things the canon is so broad that you have to put limits in, otherwise, the concept has no meaning. For example, Link vs Batman, who wins? The answer depends on which Link and which Batman we are referring to. Majora's Mask Link will own Batman, every Batman, with an unlimited amount of prep time, because Link's powers can't be researched, codified and negated through careful preparations. Triforce of the Gods (A Link to the Past in America) Link? Not so much. Depending on which Batman we're talking about, his tactics, weapons of choice and gadgets available are very different.
Hell sometimes limitations are placed so as clarify where in the Manga the Author is. I'm currently at chapter 24 of a manga called Kurohime, but am up to date with Mahou Sensei Negima (chapter 260). Who would win: Negi from as far as I've read, or Kurohime from as far as I've read?
Good Limitations limit the character to one canonical moveset or the point at which the author of the thread knows and are necessary. Bad limitations effectively tie one character's hands so they can't win making the argument pointless.
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There we have it. Christopher Lee himself decrees VS debates idiotic. And you do NOT mess with Christopher Lee.
"When I was shooting the stabbing shot with Christopher, as a director would I was explaining to him what he should do when Wormtongue stabs him in the back—like sort of the air’s escaping out of you. And he says, “Peter, have you ever heard the sound a man makes when he’s stabbed in the back?” And I said, “Um, no.” And he says “Well, I have, and I know what to do.”"
-Peter Jackson
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If your idea of fun is to give the players whatever they want, then I suggest you take out a board game called: CANDY LAND and use that for your gaming sessions.
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Originally Posted by Dervag
Obviously, you have never known the frustration of being stranded in the Molasses Swamp.
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Him, darth revan was male in every sense of the word. Canon is VERY clear here.
Is it? I thought KOTOR 2 made it pretty clear that Revan was a female, given that "her" was how everyone referred to her--not to mention whats-his-face from the first game still being in love with her!
Is it? I thought KOTOR 2 made it pretty clear that Revan was a female, given that "her" was how everyone referred to her--not to mention whats-his-face from the first game still being in love with her!
The cast of Seinfeld could take out the cast of Friends.
I am not making this up.
my money on the cast of Seinfeld.
Worst "Vs" argument I've heard of?
Magic vs the Force
Imperial Empire vs the Borg
Sailor Moon vs X anime ( have a weird friend who thinks of nothing but strange anime crossovers at work. Also typical of using "Goku" in anything like it's going out of style. )
500-20th Fighters vs 1-20th Planar Shepherd
Is it? I thought KOTOR 2 made it pretty clear that Revan was a female, given that "her" was how everyone referred to her--not to mention whats-his-face from the first game still being in love with her!
You chose Revan's sex in KotOR II. If you said Revan was female, then she was.
The canon is male Revan, female Exile.
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Like fire, hellfire
You can't steal the sky from me.
This fire in my skin
And even if you throw me to Abyss.
This burning desire
I'll take back the sky eventually.
Is turning me to sin
Call me Rose, or The Rose Dragon. Rose Dragon is someone else entirely.
Is it? I thought KOTOR 2 made it pretty clear that Revan was a female, given that "her" was how everyone referred to her--not to mention whats-his-face from the first game still being in love with her!
That's actually the result of the answer you gave Atton way back on Peragus. The dialogue alters itself to him/her depending on what you tell him when you first meet him.
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Originally Posted by mikej
500-20th Fighters vs 1-20th Planar Shepherd
Similar vein, I remember seeing something on the GameFAQS RPG board about X class vs 1000 children or somesuch...
"When I was shooting the stabbing shot with Christopher, as a director would I was explaining to him what he should do when Wormtongue stabs him in the back—like sort of the air’s escaping out of you. And he says, “Peter, have you ever heard the sound a man makes when he’s stabbed in the back?” And I said, “Um, no.” And he says “Well, I have, and I know what to do.”"
-Peter Jackson
Thats just amazing! I'm nearly at a loss for words. He now own the rule of cool
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Because utopia is a dream, humans are bastards and any attempt to really flesh out Neverland turns it into Battle Royal island, only with pirates, cannibal children, man-eating mermaids, sadistic Indians, nymphomaniac fairies and Godzilla with a ringing tummy.
I recall once seeing an argument that went something like this:
"Star Trek's writers were notorious for pulling things out of their arses at the last minute to ensure the Enterprise won the day. Therefore, in a situation like this you could expect the same thing to happen so the Enterprise wins."
I don't remeber exactly who the other party (or parties) involved were, but I think the Enterprise was pretty heavily outclassed.
Other behaviours like this ('X wins due to plot/rule of funny etc.) are also utterly assinine, but this particular one stuck with me.
One of the most stupid versus thread I can recall was Sephiroth versus The Justice League, just because of how quickly it devolved into the original poster throwing in as many modifcations as he possibly could (most of them fairly dubious) to try and get Sephiroth to win.
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Just because I think Character A could beat Character B in a fight doesn't mean that Character B or the work he's from is inferior to Character A (or the work he's from). But I think Vs. Threads often come down to that, and people line up behind their favorite character.
I can't second this enough. I think pretty much all the versus thread 'fads' (vs Sauron, Versus Imperium of Man/40k) stem from this frankly childish 'my favourite can beat up your favourite' attitude. As soon as one character/organisation/culture from a particular setting is established as being particularly strong a huge horde of 'popular' opponents are thrown against it as the fans start feeling 'threatened'. When said popular challengers get their arses handed to them then the obsessive fanish behaviour starts coming out and cries of 'fanboy' abound. You get posts insulting the victorious franchise for being 'ridiculous' due it not being beatable by someone's pet favourites. This is almost inevitably responded to in kind by the other side, especially as fans of one very often challenged setting or character start feeling a bit picked-on and get increasingly dismissive and defensive.
Perhaps the best comment I've ever heard about "vs." debates:
"Someone asked me yesterday if Dracula met Saruman and there was a fight, who would win. I just looked at this man. What an idiotic thing to say. I mean really, it was half-witted." - Christopher Lee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dervag
"When I was shooting the stabbing shot with Christopher, as a director would I was explaining to him what he should do when Wormtongue stabs him in the back—like sort of the air’s escaping out of you. And he says, “Peter, have you ever heard the sound a man makes when he’s stabbed in the back?” And I said, “Um, no.” And he says “Well, I have, and I know what to do.”"
-Peter Jackson
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Some of the worst ones come from when you use near omnipotent beings.
Galactus, Dr Manhattan, the Phoenix, Cthulhu and other the other Old Ones and Outer Gods, Morgoth at full power, Franklin Richards at full potential, etc. (Sorry to whoever posted the Dr Manhattan VS Phoenix thread.)
I find them really boring when things get this powerful. It takes the fun out of the idea, and most of these beings don't fight things regularly of their power. Instead, they are stopped by the heroes/villians by using a certain device or weakness.
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One of the most stupid versus thread I can recall was Sephiroth versus The Justice League, just because of how quickly it devolved into the original poster throwing in as many modifcations as he possibly could (most of them fairly dubious) to try and get Sephiroth to win.
I remember that thread. Just... damn.
As for the rest of your post, which I won't quote because it's too long, I concur. The analysis is pretty spot on. Which is why I tend to ignore most vs threads, unless they're about something else than pure physical might ("Who can out-mastermind Discworld's Patrician?") or are simply hilarious (Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines vs ACROSS from Excel Saga). And pure battle prowess of a character definitely is not any indication of how good their media are. After all, creating an invincible hero that can take on everything and win without effort is mark of BAD, not good writing.
EDIT: Wait a sec, I forgot to answer the original question!
So, what is the worst vs thread argument I can think of?
The answer is: anything, if the grammar is bad enough.
And pure battle prowess of a character definitely is not any indication of how good their media are. After all, creating an invincible hero that can take on everything and win without effort is mark of BAD, not good writing.
I present to you Blandor. A grey robot with no personality or goals, holding a small device with a button marked "I win". Pressing this button results in him winning.
Any challengers?
__________________ Minmaxboards are back up! But BG will be deleted soon; for reals. Last chance to save anything.
I present to you Blandor. A grey robot with no personality or goals, holding a small device with a button marked "I win". Pressing this button results in him winning.
Any challengers?
Yes, Esteban Del Taco. An overweight balding 45 year old Mexican holding a small device with a button marked, "No, you lose". FIGHT
Last edited by Fiendish_Dire_Moose : 08-13-2009 at 11:45 AM.
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