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2009-08-17, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
I doubt many here remember the Link v. Sephiroth vs thread here.....that one was...defining. To say the least. Its the first vs thread I know of that went for more then one full length thread.
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2009-08-17, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
What about VS arguments based on real technology? A bit like the Samurai Vs Knight ones, but more modern:
say: 100 M1 Abrams vs 100 Challenger 2 tanks. (or, 1 billion dollars worth vs 1 billion dollars worth, if one of them is much more expensive than the other).
or some similar set of "appropriate counterparts".
Do these tend to end up with shaky logic from both sides as well?Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-08-17 at 11:41 AM.
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2009-08-17, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Yes. Yes, they do. Nationalism - or even just personal affinity, for some people - starts coming into play, and things get really, really screwy, really, really fast. "Tank A vs. Tank B" is a very common one at certain spots around the net, as are "Fighter A vs. Fighter B" and "Warship A vs. Warship B." For example, many people simply are not capable of a calm, rational discussion of the relative merits of the battleships built by various nations' navies in the first half of the 20th century.
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2009-08-17, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
I see. Do we occasionally see good, well reasoned arguments of this type though?
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2009-08-17, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
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2009-08-17, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
I think they were old enough to get nailed by the thread purge, but I can't find my two or so posts in that thread as the search only went to May 1st of this year.
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2009-08-17, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
They got eaten by the purge I think
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2009-08-17, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2009-08-17 at 10:56 PM.
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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2009-08-17, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
They are rarer than hen's teeth. To put it in terms of an aviation discussion, since that's the sort I'm most likely to get sucked into willy-nilly:
Part of the problem is that it's nigh-impossible to get agreement even on relatively easily-measured capabilities such as range and speed. Then you add in more difficult ideas like "maneuverability" (a catch-all term which covers a lot of different aspects of performance), operational factors such as reliability and ease of servicing, situational advantages for one side or the other... and then the real discussion killer, pilot skill. The truth, IMO, is that it's mostly a matter of horses for courses - different types of aircraft are/were optimized for different roles, and are/were usually effective* when used as intended. But sadly, that's not the way such discussions tend to go; mostly they go as JaxGaret described.
* There have been aircraft which absolutely blew chunks in their designed roles, but those aircraft don't generally have legions of rabid partisans sticking up for the honor of their favorite._______________________________________________
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2009-08-17, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
What I want to see is one of those idiots actually talking to someone who makes reproduction Japanese swords using the original techniques and ores. They're still around, but no way in hell are they going to sell you one of their swords to try some crazy "chop a steel bar" stunt. They know quite well what the blades they make are and are not capable of.
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Irrelevant responses to stuff from earlier:
I was speaking metaphorically, with "bullets" standing in for "blasters." I don't really think I'd go for the sword even if I had some kind of implausible bullet-dodging abilities; I'm not that kind of guy. But I would be tempted.
I'm not talking about the normal radiation in space that people have to worry about in real life. I'm talking about the weirdo "particle of the week" stuff that keeps inflicting dramatic illnesses and injuries and threatening to destroy the ship. You've got guys running around in the warp core without radiation suits, catching bizarre alien diseases that force the medical officer to scramble to find a treatment minutes before they dissolve into a pile of goo or whatever, that kind of thing.
In real life, we avoid this kind of thing by taking intelligent precautions, and would presumably continue to do so in the future. In Star Trek, the medical technology is good enough that they're clearly very confident of their own ability to deal with anything that might cause them long-term injury by treating it after the fact, much more so than we are in real life.
Yeah, yeah, it's not impossible to counter, I know. But it sure seems to help them a lot in many situations. If someone decides to specifically start hunting Jedi with specialized weapons designed to counter lightsaber tactics, I'd expect them to succeed. Most of the time, they have the advantage of local tactical surprise: "no one expects the Jedi inquisition!" sort of thing.
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2009-08-17, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
"Answer: Select grenades, sonic screamers, cluster rockets, and plasma charges. Mines are also effective, since many Jedi will run to meet you in hand to hand combat. Silly Jedi."
Most of the time, they have the advantage of local tactical surprise: "no one expects the Jedi inquisition!" sort of thing.
Plus Jedi are sneaky bastards.Last edited by JaxGaret; 2009-08-17 at 10:37 PM.
You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche
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2009-08-17, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
I think the actual worst argument I've ever seen was in a Sephiroth vs. Superman thread(go figure). The guy's argument for Sephiroth winning was pretty much "He's Sephiroth and he's from an FF game, so he can't lose!"
It continued ad-infinitum for PAGES this way, even after he admitted that he didn't know much about Superman at all.HOW IS BABBY FORMED
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2009-08-17, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep in mind the broad definition of flaming here, which includes calling people idiots in passive-aggressive or veiled ways. Throwing around insulting terms like "idiot" or calling people who think X "children" is dangerous because it seems incredibly likely your insult hits someone present.
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2009-08-17, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-08-17, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Don't forget to use a gun as well.
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2009-08-18, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
I'd argue that lightsabers could vaporize slugs as well as they can deflect blaster bolts, but if you have a fully-automatic slugthrower, then yeah, that'd help.
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2009-08-18, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-08-18, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
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2009-08-18, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-08-18, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Well, Superman is highly vulnerable to magic, but if Supernova really works the way it seems to (rather than being an illusory attack) it could make him stronger.
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2009-08-18, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Unfortunately, most of the anti-jedi weapons that seem effective would also be really useful against normal people (sonic weapons, droidekas). Which makes it somewhat inexplicable as to why everybody doesn't have them.
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2009-08-18, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Cost? Its the prime pain in the arse for all neat weapons
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2009-08-18, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
As Innis Cabal points out, cost is one reason. Your joe-average blaster carbine can be minted out like lolipops. Sonic devices and other novelty weapons are quite a bit more expensive - and most of them tend to be area-effect weapons, which limits their usefulness somewhat on places like spaceships where collateral damage can theoretically kill everyone (not that it ever seems to stop shootouts on a ship's bridge, but they *should* worry about it).
The other problem with droidekas specifically (in addtion to the expenses one) was the stupidity problem. There's just a basic limit to their thinking - inside it, they're pretty clever (including adapting to new tactics to a certain extent), but most sentient beings, jedi or not, can outwit and kill one given long enough by using its basic programming limits against it.Last edited by Jade_Tarem; 2009-08-18 at 09:19 AM.
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2009-08-18, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Stupidest VS. I've personally seen and read was BOLO versus Harry Potter -verse (mostly just Hogwarts combined).
The OP didn't specify which mark of Bolo, but yeah.
It came down to whether the anti-Muggle technology field in HP could shut down a BOLO or not.
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2009-08-18, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
the link vs sephiroth thread is still here. just use google.
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2009-08-18, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2009-08-18, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-08-18, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
How can you shoot something from miles away when you don't know where it is? Hogwarts is "Unplottable" which I assume refers to electronic attempts to map its location as well as normal maps. Not even pre computing era artillery would be useful, since you can't estimate(or plot) the location with mathematics. All you could do would be to randomly fire in its general direction.
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2009-08-18, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2009-08-18 at 01:31 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2009-08-18, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Worst "VS" Arguments You've Heard?
"Don't drink the water, don't breathe the air." The weird melt-you-into-a-puddle-of-goo alien pathogen can't get you if you've been following strict decon procedures and wearing hazard suits where indicated.
There will be stuff that gets past your guard, but you'll have a guard. By contrast, many Trek ships have effectively no guard to get past because of their reliance on after-the-fact medical treatment. The fact that this works for them is a sign that their medical technology is more advanced, even if their safety procedures suck.
Since you're shooting at a stone castle, this is by no means unworkable. You could really mess the place up that way.