Schlock Mercenary VI: Eat It, Kill It, Make Friends With It, Take a Bath in It

[smuchmuch]

(That might be a genuine screw up on the part of the author here. Or maybe she just had two names )

[factotum]

If Karl thought he was talking to his wife, the "That was the last of them" comment implies he was talking about children? Did we know Kaff had any brothers or sisters before this?

[tonberrian]

Kaff had two younger siblings that died in that same nanite incident that killed his mother.

[Landis963]

(That might be a genuine screw up on the part of the author here. Or maybe she just had two names )

Why not both? The new footnote gives Karl's wife a first name that I'm fairly certain she did not have to begin with.

[eschmenk]

Kaff had two younger siblings that died in that same nanite incident that killed his mother.

Yes, I didn't link to the first page of the flashback because it wasn't useful for determining Karl's wife's name, but the center frame shows the younger siblings. It also shows a pair of grandparents. Since the wiki page said that Karl's mother was a machinist and the woman seems to be wearing a tool belt and the story was about Karl, I would guess that they are Karl's parents rather than his wife's, but I don't really know.

Why not both? The new footnote gives Karl's wife a first name that I'm fairly certain she did not have to begin with.

Yep, HT smoothly covered his goof by giving her two names and sticking them in a footnote that's ostensibly about something else.

[tonberrian]

Yes, I didn't link to the first page of the flashback because it wasn't useful for determining Karl's wife's name, but the center frame shows the younger siblings. It also shows a pair of grandparents. Since the wiki page said that Karl's mother was a machinist and the woman seems to be wearing a tool belt and the story was about Karl, I would guess that they are Karl's parents rather than his wife's, but I don't really know.

The man has a very similar hairstyle to Kaff and Karl, I'm pretty sure he's Kaff's grandfather.

[eschmenk]

The man has a very similar hairstyle to Kaff and Karl, I'm pretty sure he's Kaff's grandfather.

Well, yes, he was almost certainly Kaff's grandfather. The only question would have been over whether or Karl's father or Kathleen's father. I already gave my reasons for guessing that he was Karl's father.

I don't know how you concluded that the hairstyles were similar. The guy who seems to be a grandfather is virtually bald on top. Also hairstyles aren't hereditary, so I'm not sure I would conclude anything much from that. Flinder's hairstyle is also similar, but she's not related. It wouldn't be surprising if Kathleen picked a guy who reminded her of her father, so that could explain Karl having similar hair to her father.

[halfeye]

And hey, in a few hundred years, the age difference between the two of them won't seem to be such a big deal!

In a few million years, they'll effectively have been born the same day.

[tonberrian]

Well, yes, he was almost certainly Kaff's grandfather. The only question would have been over whether or Karl's father or Kathleen's father. I already gave my reasons for guessing that he was Karl's father.

I don't know how you concluded that the hairstyles were similar. The guy who seems to be a grandfather is virtually bald on top. Also hairstyles aren't hereditary, so I'm not sure I would conclude anything much from that. Flinder's hairstyle is also similar, but she's not related. It wouldn't be surprising if Kathleen picked a guy who reminded her of her father, so that could explain Karl having similar hair to her father.

They're definitely Karl's parents. In this universe, Karl's hairstyle (and eyes) do seem to be hereditary. Karl's dad has a few hairs where Karl had his last point, and the rest of the hair matches.

[eschmenk]

New comic: *yawn*

[The Glyphstone]

Comics like this are why I keep reading. Iafa's expression in the beat panel is comedy gold, and says so much without any dialogue at all.

[eschmenk]

Comics like this are why I keep reading. Iafa's expression in the beat panel is comedy gold, and says so much without any dialogue at all.

To me, the comedy is ruined by the AI being so stupid. The AI said that Tagon didn't consider the strain on the heat pumps. Well, neither did the AI! Why did it take so long for it to figure out that there might be a problem? Once it realized that there was a problem, why didn't it think of using water from the ocean? That was an obvious solution that jumped out at me, so why didn't it think of it? And why would it need to submerge in the ocean. Any Esspie TAD devices were probably destroyed, so why not teraport water directly into the hot spots and open the doors and hatches so the steam can escape? You would be setting up nasty steam explosions if you try to submerge the ship because the water coming in would block the steam from easily escaping. Granted, the AI was apparently smart enough to realize that, but why didn't it think of a better solution, since one that would probably work is so obvious?

The comic might have been funny if Flinder's idea wasn't so painfully obvious the AI had no reason to be caught off guard in that panel. But I'm getting tired of watching all of the characters acting like complete idiots. A little of it would be OK, but there is just too much.

[The Glyphstone]

It's been drummed into us repeatedly that the AIs keep the meatsacks around despite all their inadequacies for the bursts of intuitive thought, however illogical, that they sometimes produce to solve a problem. Deliberately crashing your ship into the ocean with all the airlocks open as an impromptu heat sink is not a solution any rational AI would think of, because it's utterly insane. Only a collodial will come up with that sort of idea, but it's also the only thing that will work here.

[eschmenk]

It's been drummed into us repeatedly that the AIs keep the meatsacks around despite all their inadequacies for the bursts of intuitive thought, however illogical, that they sometimes produce to solve a problem. Deliberately crashing your ship into the ocean with all the airlocks open as an impromptu heat sink is not a solution any rational AI would think of, because it's utterly insane. Only a collodial will come up with that sort of idea, but it's also the only thing that will work here.

Why wouldn't teraporting water in work?

[NEO|Phyte]

To me, the comedy is ruined by the AI being so stupid. The AI said that Tagon didn't consider the strain on the heat pumps. Well, neither did the AI! Why did it take so long for it to figure out that there might be a problem? Once it realized that there was a problem, why didn't it think of using water from the ocean? That was an obvious solution that jumped out at me, so why didn't it think of it? And why would it need to submerge in the ocean. Any Esspie TAD devices were probably destroyed, so why not teraport water directly into the hot spots and open the doors and hatches so the steam can escape? You would be setting up nasty steam explosions if you try to submerge the ship because the water coming in would block the steam from easily escaping.

The comic might have been funny if Flinder's idea wasn't painfully obvious the AI had no reason to be surprised. But I'm getting tired of watching all of the characters acting like complete idiots. A little of it would be OK, but there is just too much.

I'd say that structurally compromising almost every deck would, by necessity, include the heat pumps. Considering that laz-4 death wasn't going to deter Tagon, I rather doubt that 'the resulting heat is most likely going to render the ship uninhabitable' would have swayed him much either.

It 'took so long' to figure out there might be a problem because it took that long for the pumps to start failing for there to BE a problem to figure out.

As for oceanic heat dissipation, I'm filing that one under 'yet another instance of AIs being surprised at what meat brains come up with', and for your teraport suggestion, given that they couldn't just teraport something into place to intercept that stealth rock, I'm pretty sure that their multi-layered TAD bubbles didn't have any sort of authentication system in place to allow for friendly teraports. Seems like an odd thing to not have, unless you're super paranoid about someone managing to crack the authentication system. Or wait, the gift horse was able to teraport out, so why the heck DIDN'T they move something into position to intercept that stealth rock?

[Mando Knight]

Why wouldn't teraporting water in work?

It probably wouldn't be enough mass.

[eschmenk]

I'd say that structurally compromising almost every deck would, by necessity, include the heat pumps.

I would have thought so, too, but that's not the way the comic was written. Given the way the AI worded it, it seems to be that the heat pumps are just wearing out due to overuse.

Considering that laz-4 death wasn't going to deter Tagon, I rather doubt that 'the resulting heat is most likely going to render the ship uninhabitable' would have swayed him much either.

It 'took so long' to figure out there might be a problem because it took that long for the pumps to start failing for there to BE a problem to figure out.

No, if the pumps could only remove so much heat, and the warhead was going to generate more heat than that, the problem could have been appreciated before the warhead went off. Your comment about not deterring Kaff wouldn't even be appropriate otherwise.

As for oceanic heat dissipation, I'm filing that one under 'yet another instance of AIs being surprised at what meat brains come up with', and for your teraport suggestion, given that they couldn't just teraport something into place to intercept that stealth rock, I'm pretty sure that their multi-layered TAD bubbles didn't have any sort of authentication system in place to allow for friendly teraports. Seems like an odd thing to not have, unless you're super paranoid about someone managing to crack the authentication system. Or wait, the gift horse was able to teraport out, so why the heck DIDN'T they move something into position to intercept that stealth rock?

It would seem to be very impractical to have a TAD system without some authentication system. You would want to be able to teraport while your enemy couldn't. Without authentication, you would have to physically to a defective node's location to replace or repair it. To deactivate the system, you would have to do it manually node by node. To me, not being able to teraport something into the path of the stealth impactor is just a plot hole. They should have been able to do it, although it would be tricky if it tried to jink around whatever you put in it's path.

It probably wouldn't be enough mass.

How do you figure that?

It's been drummed into us repeatedly that the AIs keep the meatsacks around despite all their inadequacies for the bursts of intuitive thought, however illogical, that they sometimes produce to solve a problem.

While I'm at it, I disagree with this. The AIs think non-intuitively all the time. There is nothing rational about Enesby's love of puns, for example.

[Mando Knight]

How do you figure that?

The idea to use Uli-Oa's ocean as a heat sink came about because they need to dissipate a lot of heat. While teraporting water in and out of the ship may be enough to eventually cool it to salvageable levels, we don't have half the information needed to decide that it's a better option than plunging the ship into the ocean with all its ports open (which would allow water to flow through the ship, improving the cooling rate compared to having a relatively static mass of water appear within the vessel).

Additionally, the teraport uses energy (which in turn causes more heat), which means that if it costs more energy to execute than the dive option, it's at a further disadvantage as a cooling method when the whole point is to compensate for the heat pumps buckling under the strain of trying to mitigate the internal detonation of a StS missile.

[factotum]

I'm pretty sure that their multi-layered TAD bubbles didn't have any sort of authentication system in place to allow for friendly teraports.

They definitely do, because otherwise the science ship wouldn't have been able to teraport out when the Esspies overran it. However, teraporting tons of water aboard the ship doesn't actually help the situation at all--the heat is still inside the ship, and now you're adding a huge overpressure wave of steam to your list of problems to deal with. As for why the AI didn't consider what Flinders suggested, it's because that approach is likely to cause a whole heap of damage to the ship--I'm not even sure why they need to consider doing it once the crew have evacuated, to be honest.

[eschmenk]

The idea to use Uli-Oa's ocean as a heat sink came about because they need to dissipate a lot of heat. While teraporting water in and out of the ship may be enough to eventually cool it to salvageable levels, we don't have half the information needed to decide that it's a better option than plunging the ship into the ocean with all its ports open (which would allow water to flow through the ship, improving the cooling rate compared to having a relatively static mass of water appear within the vessel).

You are underestimating how hot it is in that section of the ship. According to what the AI said in the previous update and the current one, it must be at least several hundred degrees C. The AI was clearly anticipating a massive steam explosion if he submerges Broken Wind in the ocean. You would do much better terraporting water in in relatively small amounts and allowing the steam to rush out. What you absolutely don't want is for liquid water to be entering in an uncontrolled way at the same time the steam is trying to get out. Having liquid water flowing through the ship wouldn't be an option; it's far too hot.

Additionally, the teraport uses energy (which in turn causes more heat), which means that if it costs more energy to execute than the dive option, it's at a further disadvantage as a cooling method when the whole point is to compensate for the heat pumps buckling under the strain of trying to mitigate the internal detonation of a StS missile.

The teraports don't seem to generate heat. Early on, Schlock teraported himself using a primitive hand-held device. Neither he nor the device seemed to get hot. What would generate heat would be Broken Wind flying quickly down to the water.

They definitely do, because otherwise the science ship wouldn't have been able to teraport out when the Esspies overran it.

I'm not even sure that there is a TAD field throughout the center of the Tough's defenses. I thought the Toughs surrounded themselves by a TAD field created by many TAD nodes, but those layers are further out. I don't remember it very well, though.

However, teraporting tons of water aboard the ship doesn't actually help the situation at all--the heat is still inside the ship, and now you're adding a huge overpressure wave of steam to your list of problems to deal with.

The steam would vent out through the hatches that were opened. You could control how much pressure you develop by controlling how quickly you teraport the water in. Heck, just teraporting in air and letting the hot air vent should help a lot. Submerging the ship would tend to trap steam inside, though. The uncontrolled water rushing in would block the steam from leaving. You can get massive steam explosions that way.

As for why the AI didn't consider what Flinders suggested, it's because that approach is likely to cause a whole heap of damage to the ship--I'm not even sure why they need to consider doing it once the crew have evacuated, to be honest.

I wasn't clear on why it would be so necessary after the crew evacuated, either, especially if the heat pumps could survive if they were dialed back a little. Granted, you wouldn't want to leave the ship abandoned for too long or the Esspies might somehow board it again. I'm actually not even clear on why it would be so necessary for the crew to completely evacuate. Hopefully their armor suits could deal with temperatures up to a couple hundred degrees C. Granted if the suit failed, there would be problems, so nonessential personnel should probably evacuate. However, I could suspend my disbelief about those issues. It's other stuff that's causing problems for me.

I think we are supposed to believe that submerging the ship in the ocean is a good idea, despite the damage it would cause. Keep in mind that despite Broken Winds many inadequacies, it is apparently a very strong ship that was built to try to withstand incredible crushing forces generated by the DMEs. That should help it survive the steam explosions to some extent. I couldn't absolutely rule out the possibility that Flinders will find out that her idea was a bad one, but I don't expect it. I think the story is trying to make Flinders look good.

[halfeye]

The steam would vent out through the hatches that were opened. You could control how much pressure you develop if you teraport the water in. Heck, just teraporting in air and letting the hot air vent should help a lot. Submerging the ship would tend to trap steam inside, though. The water rushing in would block the steam from leaving. You can get massive steam explosions that way.

Semi-submerged would work much better though, water in through the bottom, steam out the top, the only thing would be maintaining enough lift to prevent the thrust from the steam pushing the ship under.

[eschmenk]

Semi-submerged would work much better though, water in through the bottom, steam out the top, the only thing would be maintaining enough lift to prevent the thrust from the steam pushing the ship under.

Yeah, if they can't teraport water in, they should try that. That sort of thing is trickier than many people would expect, though.

The other thing is that they probably actually should try it in an area where the water is already boiling. That may sound counter-intuitive, but at least that way, they wouldn't run into problems with vacuums, which can be created when steam mixes with cold water and other factors like that that can create dynamics that can really complicate things.

[tonberrian]

There might also be a hostile tad over the planetoid. The Espees are attacking the Toughs, you wouldn't want to go after Cindercone and lose Uli-Oa.

And someone make a new thread.

[The Glyphstone]

How does 'A T.A.D. too much dialogue these days' sit with people?

[SlyGuyMcFly]

How does 'A T.A.D. too much dialogue these days' sit with people?

It got a chuckle out of me, to be sure. I'll second it.

[eschmenk]

There might also be a hostile tad over the planetoid. The Espees are attacking the Toughs, you wouldn't want to go after Cindercone and lose Uli-Oa.

Yes, there might be one. However, a TAD would only limit the Toughs to sub-light speed, and I think the Wing Commander somehow thought he could get away with everything without the civilian Espees figuring things out, so he would have tried to avoid doing anything that the civilians might notice, so I don't know if he would have set up one or not. Small TAD around military facilities would prevent surprise retaliatory attacks (at least the ones he would care about), yet be less likely to alert the civilians, so that might be what he would choose.

How does 'A T.A.D. too much dialogue these days' sit with people?

I like it.

[The Glyphstone]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...8#post21283448

Tada.