The identity of the mysterious voices.

[Roland Itiative]

That's plausible, but I have my doubts. As far as we know, the Gate's defenses are working precisely as intended--stalling the hell out of invaders through sheer number of choices. Maybe they weren't expected Xykon to clear nearly a half dozen in a single day, or maybe they expected most threats would have died or given up by this point, but I doubt that someone associated with the Gate designers would be surprised that somebody would tackle the gate by slowly and systematically clearing out every dungeon. Also keep in mind, the voices are probably well aware that the MitD has been sabotaging the search--something that doesn't seem to be part of Serini's original plan. This means that the situation is even better than expected: Per Serini's plan, an invader would have to search up to X dungeons before finding the gate. Due to MitD's sabotage, there's a decent chance Xykon will think he's searched all the dungeons without success. At this point, he'll either think the gate was a trick, and either give up or try searching elsewhere, or he'll think that he was tricked or that his team made a mistake, and start search all X gates from scratch.

As others have said, this was designed to be a massive shell game. I just don't think that seeing someone continuing to play the shell game for so long would be enough to trigger the sort of surprise and dismay I read in the dialogue.

I'm not sure about the Gate defenses working as intended. In an ideal situation, they're there to stop invaders, either by killing them in one of the dungeons, or encouraging them to give up by the unlikelihood of picking the right gate. The case of a group of invaders being able to actually breach all the dungeons successfully may have been taken into account (and that's probably why those new guys are there, if they're in fact Gate guardians), but it's more of a plan B than a plan A, if anything.

And I do think seeing someone successfully play the shell game for that long is a cause of surprise. We're talking about several epic level encounters here (Xykon mentioned getting XP for the first time in a long while), the shell game has a very high "price" for each round of play, that being the risk of successfully going through an epic level dungeon after another. As of right now, the doors are succeeding in stalling Team Evil, but they're also strengthening them for each day they succeed, both in levels and loot.

Furthermore, if the shell game is in fact just a ruse, and the real Gate lies elsewhere, then MitD's attempt at helping may actually cause the opposite effect, as Xykon himself may realise the whole set-up is misleading once they run out of doors, rather than realising MitD's scheme.

[Xyril]

Furthermore, if the shell game is in fact just a ruse, and the real Gate lies elsewhere, then MitD's attempt at helping may actually cause the opposite effect, as Xykon himself may realise the whole set-up is misleading once they run out of doors, rather than realising MitD's scheme.

That's an interesting point. I've been leaning towards MitD's well-intentioned plan backfiring, but I expected the more obvious mechanism everyone else had been suggesting (i.e., Redcloak doing the math and realizing that somebody was sabotaging them, not that everyone would wrongly believe they cleared everything and jump to the right conclusion based on the wrong premise.)

[CriticalFailure]

That's an interesting point. I've been leaning towards MitD's well-intentioned plan backfiring, but I expected the more obvious mechanism everyone else had been suggesting (i.e., Redcloak doing the math and realizing that somebody was sabotaging them, not that everyone would wrongly believe they cleared everything and jump to the right conclusion based on the wrong premise.)

I was thinking someone would realize that the math was off (probably Redcloak) but they would also discover that there was some trick to the gate or something afterwards, either intentionally or accidentally.

[Rotipher]

Don't fey also have colored speech bubbles? Because going purely by observed actions - Greater Invisibility, flight, use of sleep-inducing missiles that the paladins *assume* are darts because they're small - my guess is that "Boss" is a pixie.

[CriticalFailure]

Maybe remnants of defenders of the previous gates are trying to figure out what's going on.

[Emanick]

Don't fey also have colored speech bubbles? Because going purely by observed actions - Greater Invisibility, flight, use of sleep-inducing missiles that the paladins *assume* are darts because they're small - my guess is that "Boss" is a pixie.

Have we ever actually seen a fey speak in OOTS? The only times fey have ever appeared, IIRC, are (1) in a joke panel in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails about the 4e Feywild, and (2) in line for the women’s restroom way back in Book 1. In neither case did any speak. So maybe they have colored speech bubbles and maybe they don’t.

Personally, I don’t really think fey fit the setting of Kraagor’s Gate thematically - I don’t know, something just seems off about them being here. But I could be wrong.

[factotum]

Personally, I don’t really think fey fit the setting of Kraagor’s Gate thematically - I don’t know, something just seems off about them being here. But I could be wrong.

They could have travelled here from elsewhere--they don't have to be native to the area around the Gate.

[Emanick]

They could have travelled here from elsewhere--they don't have to be native to the area around the Gate.

I meant "thematically" in Doylist terms, not Watsonian (I'm not sure it's even possible to say that something is thematically appropriate in Watsonian terms). Fey are not the sort of creatures I can envision the series expanding to include at this stage. They don't really fit with any of the themes associated with the storyline or Kraagor's Gate - I can't quite articulate why, it just seems off to have them around.

In contrast, some magical constructs or Outsiders would fit quite well.

[drazen]

I'm skeptical the invisible newcomers are total bad guys. The idea of "Nice while it lasted... {this} existing {thing}" could imply they intend to let the Snarl wipe out everyone before the Godsmoot ends, so the gods cannot destroy the world and give Hel power. The "finally doing this" made it seem like Green Bubble thought this was an inevitable outcome.

I will point out how huge whatever picked up Lien, O-Chul, and their weapons must be given how spread out they are... and how MITD said his dad was huge and ate a ton. Daddy MITD speaking Common might explain why MITD can speak it... and it could be a "like father, like son" deal, where both of them are content to be underlings/followers ("What was, Boss?"). Plus book 7 will inevitably reveal what the MITD is, right? Nobody ever said he'd be the first of his kind to be seen, though. Xykon "knows what he is" so there's definitely more than one of his kind. EDIT: And that big ravine? Who's to say it wasn't stomped into existence by Daddy MITD, just like regular MITD stomped one in War & XP's.

MITD never said his dad died or anything. And the whole comic can't be nothing but terrible father figures: Eugene, Tarquin, Girard, the priest who exiled Durkon, Ian Starshine to a fair degree given Haley's mental hangups which she explicitly stated came from what he taught her, even Lord Shojo to some extent, Vaarsuvius isn't technically male but was effectively an absentee parent. The one "good" father figure we see, Julio, is CN by word of author, and was not inspired by Elan's Sending asking for mere heroism for its own sake, so he's not quite the Good father figure Elan imagines. He's on vacation and letting someone else do the world-at-stake level adventuring... Julio was a "dashing swordsman" who i speculate fought for lower stakes most of his life.

Serini could have picked up some Ranger levels (note Girard's comment in the illusion about delegating mapmaking duties to the ranger) and thus tamed Invisible Daddy MITD. That would not explain having a green speech bubble, though, unless Serini has gone through some major changes.

[hroþila]

I'm skeptical the invisible newcomers are total bad guys. The idea of "Nice while it lasted... {this} existing {thing}" could imply they intend to let the Snarl wipe out everyone before the Godsmoot ends, so the gods cannot destroy the world and give Hel power. The "finally doing this" made it seem like Green Bubble thought this was an inevitable outcome.

Your mileage may vary, but I'd consider that a strongly Evil action.

[drazen]

Your mileage may vary, but I'd consider that a strongly Evil action.

MMDV, I'm seeing it as more of a "greater good" thing. Either sacrifice this world, or condemn every future soul.

It could also be that the boss creature has a plan that simply means THEY would not exist but they will somehow save everyone.

[Petrocorus]

I will point out how huge whatever picked up Lien, O-Chul, and their weapons must be given how spread out they are... and how MITD said his dad was huge and ate a ton. Daddy MITD speaking Common might explain why MITD can speak it... and it could be a "like father, like son" deal, where both of them are content to be underlings/followers ("What was, Boss?").

In the case of MitD, i always seen this as an effect of his childdishness. Or immaturity in proper english.

Plus book 7 will inevitably reveal what the MITD is, right? Nobody ever said he'd be the first of his kind to be seen, though. Xykon "knows what he is" so there's definitely more than one of his kind. EDIT: And that big ravine?

The Giant has stated that the MitD will eventually be revealed and that we would recognize it once we'll see it.

MITD never said his dad died or anything. And the whole comic can't be nothing but terrible father figures: Eugene, Tarquin, Girard, the priest who exiled Durkon, Ian Starshine to a fair degree given Haley's mental hangups which she explicitly stated came from what he taught her, even Lord Shojo to some extent,

Oh my... I never noticed that trend. Quite astonishing.

Vaarsuvius isn't technically male but was effectively an absentee parent.

He may be. Us not knowing if he's male and him not being male are two different things.

[drazen]

In the case of MitD, i always seen this as an effect of his childdishness. Or immaturity in proper english

.

Which he would have learned from his father - whose grasp of Common might not have been that great to begin with.

The Giant has stated that the MitD will eventually be revealed and that we would recognize it once we'll see it

.

Doesn't mean another one won't be revealed first, or simultaneously.

He may be. Us not knowing if he's male and him not being male are two different things.

I thought the author has stated that V originally had an intended gender, and it was just a running joke at first, but then decided to write them as not being one of the MF binary genders / fluid / something else. The character V has explicitly stated they do not really notice a lot of gender details / pronouns and V's and Inky's kids address them as "Parent."

[Petrocorus]

Which he would have learned from his father - whose grasp of Common might not have been that great to begin with.

I meant about MitD being subservient to Xykon and RC.

Doesn't mean another one won't be revealed first, or simultaneously.

True.

I thought the author has stated that V originally had an intended gender, and it was just a running joke at first, but then decided to write them as not being one of the MF binary genders / fluid / something else. The character V has explicitly stated they do not really notice a lot of gender details / pronouns and V's and Inky's kids address them as "Parent."

MF?

I may have missed thing or comments. But i'm still under the impression that V has a gender but just and ambiguous one due to androgynous appearance, and not caring himself about this.

The whole race of elves being gender-fuild would be weird. Not only it would be a big difference with canon D&D, but half-elves are known to exist in Ootsverse, so we know elves are still sexually and genetically compatible with humans.

[Spatial]

These two hidden figures, which I support calling Kermit and Scooter, have unique speech bubbles. Unique speech bubbles have historically been used for 4 main things, outsiders (IFCC, Celia, Devas, Archons, etc.), Gods (specifically the color matching their quiddity), undead (Xykon, Wights, ghosts), and while under some magical influence or power (Darth V, Oracle, Shojos illusionary head).

Another use of the unique speech bubbles was Crystal in sentient golem form. This would also put the comment 'existing ... fun while it lasted' into context. Grubwiggler was still alive at the end of 980. Beyond that I can't see who the characters could be or how Grubwiggler would be connected so probably a dead end. Any thoughts?

[Ornithologist]

I can only seem to come up with characters who they are absolutely not going to be. At least they all fit both the color pattern and the personalities of the colors. And they make me giggle, so there's that:

Bert and Ernie
Squidward and Spongebob
Major Monogram and Carl

I'll see my self out.

[Theshipening]

The one "good" father figure we see, Julio

Are we forgetting Durkon’s uncles ? I’d argue they largely qualify as father figures.

[pi4t]

Clearly, there's only one pair of characters these voices can belong to: the Flumphs!

[drazen]

I meant about MitD being subservient to Xykon and RC.


True.


MF?
.

Male / Female.

I am just going off some author comments I vaguely remember. I am sure not all elves are ambiguously gendered (the ones on Team Perigrene infiltration team seemed to have a couple "obvious" genders on them), but V could be. It hasn't been explicitly addressed in comic and probably never will be. I think it's set up so you can read V however you want to.

[Fish]

The parade of absent or inadequate father figures is probably just the result of the Giant’s deciding a lot of story points early on, then being committed to those choices even after he became aware of the gender imbalance in the story. We learned very early that Elan’s father was an evil conqueror, Haley’s was a first-edition thief who had been captured; Roy’s was a cantankerous ghost; and most of the Scribblers were men.

[Sir_Norbert]

Not just "probably". We have a comment to this effect in the Index.

[NobleCuriosity]

This "Redcloak's niece" rubbish is not funny, witty or clever. I've never been a regular here so I don't know what incident or series of incidents started it, but it's as of now all over the board and is hackneyed, overplayed and idiotic.

Amen.

All this meme does is clutter the board with low effort highly repetitive material and, ultimately, steer the conversation on any ultimate appearance she may make—likely a dramatic situation—into an inane meme fest.

At least That Guy with a Halberd doesn’t do the latter, even if I also find that one ridiculous.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Babylon was a notable city-state in Mesopotamia which rose to power in ancient times, and the time period after it was conquered by the Persian Empire in 6th Century BC could be considered the "fifth" Babylonian era (following the Old Babylon, Middle Babylon, Neo-Assyrian, and Neo-Babylonian periods) - or as many of its fans refer to it, "Babylon 5."

It's not as well-known or popular as some other empires of the genre, and unfortunately it was cancelled after only a couple centuries, by Alexander the Great - but it has since developed quite a cult following. Babylon 5 fan groups are all over the internet, celebrating the great achievements of Babylon as it became the new center of the Persian Empire, and bickering over plot details and minutiae from texts in Herodotus and the Cyrus Cylinder. You'll even see their fans cosplaying at conventions as their favorite Babylon 5 characters, like Cyrus the Great, Darius II, and Nebuchadnezzar IV.

Just don't confuse them with other, more popular ancient empires. Babylon 5 fans are very sensitive about being overshadowed by the more visible franchises of the genre. I mean, sure, "Egyptian 19th Dynasty" is the one that gets the mainstream attention, and the catchphrases, and the gaudy reboots featuring Chris Pine, but once you get past the pyramids and the mummies, it just lacks substance.

Babylon 5 had complexity.

Our Horoscope, after all, comes from them.

[Riftwolf]

One thought that occurs: whatever Kermit and Scooter(s) are up to, they're more concerned with what the paladins have done than what team evil are doing. Either they can't stop team evil (possible), what team evils doing won't work (less likely) or the Orders arrival complicates things to the point that Kermits willing to undo creation as the alternative. I'm guessing the answer, as always with Richs writing, will be 'it's not that simple', but we've got six weeks of idle speculation to get through, might as well get our eye in now.

[brian 333]

the Orders arrival complicates things to the point that Kermits willing to undo creation as the alternative.

I seem to have missed the part where Kermit implies he has any intent or even ability to undo creation.

What I read was that Kermit's personal existence is coming to an end, regardless of the outcome for the rest of the world.

Some points to consider:

If Kermit wants the world to end he only has to wait and do nothing. Therefore capturing the paladins implies that is not his goal.

If Kermit wanted the paladins dead...
Well, why do anything with them? A convient falling rock could have attracted Xykon's attention to them long ago.

If Kermit wanted Xykon to stop looking for the gate he might have tried exactly what he suggested to Lien.

It appears to me that the trigger for Kermit was O'Chull's question about how they could find the gate, and I think Kermit is about to give them the answer, knowing the gate's destruction will result in his personal existence coming to an end, even though it might save the world.

[Verappo]

I am thinking the voices might be followers of Tiamat, if only because of the chromatic speech bubbles. The green one seems to know their poisons, much like a green dragon would.

Also we haven't seen the Oracle in a while, and it makes sense that he and/or his faction would become relevant as issues between gods arise. The western god voted for the destruction of the world after all, maybe they want to make sure it sticks.

I'm thinking slim, cunning green dragonborn and Enor-sized, red dragonborn

[CriticalFailure]

A Tiamat and/or dragon and/or kobold faction would be interesting thought at this point the theory seems a little out of left field. Though I also thought of dragons when I saw the speech bubble color.

[Roland Itiative]

If Kermit wants the world to end he only has to wait and do nothing. Therefore capturing the paladins implies that is not his goal.

That's not something that most people would know. It's unlikely that the gods are any more forthcoming with this info now than they were before, and highly probable that they would do anything to keep this info from becoming widespread, so all the high priestes and other bodyguards are likely to be in deep trouble if they share anything with anyone not already in the know.

Our mysterious intruders may have absolutely no clue about the Godsmoot, or what the gods plan to do.

They may, however, think that breaking all five Gates will free the Snarl and "end their existence", and be willing to risk that possibility over someone else taking control of the Gate with nefarious ends in mind. They may also know that the other four Gates are already gone, and perhaps even assume that the other guardians were faced with the same "lose the Gate to the lich or destroy it" choice, and chose the latter.

I think assuming that the invisible voices are somehow creatures whose life are directly attached to the Gate is too much of a stretch, when there's the way easier assumption that they may be contemplating destroying it, and know of the (presumed) consequences of doing so being total annihilation.

[137beth]

I am aware of the existence of RN in SoD and can extrapolate that at one time some person(s) made some threads that suggested RN would have an important role coming up, which then got mocked, copied and turned into a meme. Fair enough, but now it's all over the place, been going on far too long, and everybody who brings up "Redcloaks Niece" still thinks they're being clever when they're actually being repetitively eye-rollingly annoying.

But Redcloak's Niece invented the spell "Halflings Don't Have to Breathe."

Yeah we need to go back to That Guy With A Halberd, the original forum meme.

Clearly That Guy With A Halberd is Redcloak's niece.

Now you two are just being silly. That Guy With A Halberd is quite clearly Trigak in disguise. Also, everyone has been trapped in an illusion since strip 1.

[Quebbster]

Male / Female.

I am just going off some author comments I vaguely remember. I am sure not all elves are ambiguously gendered (the ones on Team Perigrene infiltration team seemed to have a couple "obvious" genders on them), but V could be. It hasn't been explicitly addressed in comic and probably never will be. I think it's set up so you can read V however you want to.

Lirian had a clear female identity too.