MitD III: You are likely to suggest Tarrasque

[Nerdanel]

But what about the size? The MitD seems to be a medium creature!

I thought I had mentioned that but apparently not... The idea is that the MitD is small because he is still a child. We know from the elves that some species can remain children with childish minds for a very long time from the human point of view.

[Lord Bingo]

@Nerdanel: The way you have put this together, could the MitD not just as well be a pseudonatural phrenic <insert preferred creature with lots of HD here> as well as a Tarrasque?

[Nerdanel]

@Nerdanel: The way you have put this together, could the MitD not just as well be a pseudonatural phrenic <insert preferred creature with lots of HD here> as well as a Tarrasque?

The main benefits of using a Tarrasque:
- Eats a lot and indiscriminately
- It would be surprising if it spoke
- Has the Swallow Whole ability which explains why Xykon didn't get suspicious when the babies disappeared suddenly
- At least one mental score really low (I would prefer Wis, but nothing remotely applicable has naturally low Wis, necessitating childhood/ability drain shenanigans to justify them)

But really I used the Tarrasque since it's more iconic than its closest SRD competitors, Protean and Dream Larva, and to show that it can be done. And anyway, those two as base creatures don't take proper advantage of the perks offered by the Pseudonatural/Phrenic combination.

[mastermind]

Do you think that the MITD could be the Tarrasque of the world in the rift?

[Timeless Error]

Do you think that the MITD could be the Tarrasque of the world in the rift?

That seems to be walking the line between something created by Rich for the purposes of the comic and something already existing.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought I had mentioned that but apparently not... The idea is that the MitD is small because he is still a child. We know from the elves that some species can remain children with childish minds for a very long time from the human point of view.

But if it were a child, particularly so small it fits under the umbrella, it's strength would be nowhere near enough. We're talking about a baby about a thousandth of the size of the grown creature.

Yes, I understand that this is a mental experiment to develop a probable Rich template. But it would work best if you applied it to a medium size creature with enough initial strength. Take a troll, if you want, for the other characteristics that you like in a Tarrasque (i.e. famous, hungry, ugly). You needn't use the forerrunners, that already explain everything quite well, as the base creature.

Grey Wolf

[Nerdanel]

The biggest problem with the troll is that it has only 6 HD. The Phrenic template doesn't give Psionic Teleportation until 15 HD, and thus a Pseudonatural Phrenic Troll has no way to explain the Escape Scene. The HD limitation shuts out many monsters, and I don't know of any non-forerunner that's as good a base creature as a Tarrasque.

--------

Going back to the subject of Redcloak and psionics, here is a quote from the Phrenic template in the SRD to support my assertion that Redcloak wouldn't necessarily know that psionics are being used just by looking at a psionic MitD:

Seemingly no different from standard examples of their kind, phrenic creatures harbor mental might.

[Swordpriest]

To reiterate one of my ideas, how many hit dice does a neo-otyugh have. Could a phrenic neo-otyugh manage the escape scene?

[Sanguine]

To reiterate one of my ideas, how many hit dice does a neo-otyugh have. Could a phrenic neo-otyugh manage the escape scene?

I don't know where Neo-Otyugh's are from but a normal one with enough hit dice too qualify for psionic teleport would be too big.

[Lord Bingo]

It seems to me that the Phrenic template is the real kicker in the Pseudonatural Phrenic XXXX package + when I read the description of Pseudonatural creatures my mind turns first to Lovecraft and then to the Snarl, and I would rather not think of any of those two as the father of the MitD.

All in all I think the Phrenic template (if we must turn to a template at all) is a fair bid, not least because it justifies that the SBGH's might not be fully aware of what they have caught. I do think, however, that if we start stacking templates we are too close to the fine line between something Rich invented and something someone else invented.

If we choose to use the Phrenic template to explain the escape it still leaves us with having to find, in Xykon's words, "one ugly son of a bitch" with at least 15 HD and a way of explaining the various other abilities of the MitD.

If we stay with the Tarrasque example for just a little longer, how well would it do if it was just Phrenic?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If we stay with the Tarrasque example for just a little longer, how well would it do if it was just Phrenic?

Badly. It is still 1000 times too big for MitD. Come on, if you must play the template game, is Tarrasque really the only 15 HD creature that could become psychic?

GW

[Nerdanel]

I'll do a list of SRD monsters with at least 15 HD. I will not take advancement into account, since the MitD is obviously a young member of his species

Angel, Solar
Animated Object, Gargantuan
Elder Arrowhawk
Abyssal Greater Basilisk
Delver
Demon, Balor
Demon, Marilith
Horned Devil
Pit Fiend
Dinosaur, Triceratops
Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus
Dire Shark
Dire Tiger
(dragons)
(Huge+ elementals)
Formian Queen
Cloud Giant
Fire Giant
Storm Giant
Iron Golem
Greater Stone Golem
Inevitable, Marut
Kraken
Nightmare, Cauchemar
Nightcrawler
Nightwalker
Nightwing
Phasm
Purple Worm
Razor Boar
Roc
Noble Salamander
Shield Guardian
Tarrasque
Titan
Elder Tojanida
Dread Wraith
Elder Xorn

(skipped epic monsters for now)

Neothelid

Now, many of these creatures are obviously unsuitable for the MitD. The next list is the above minus those that are Undead, Constructs, Plants, Elementals, Elder X, those whose speaking wouldn't be particularly surprising, those unable to move, those who don't meet a minimal degree of prehensile limbs, and those which already have the Psionic subtype so that they can't be Phrenic.

Abyssal Greater Basilisk
Dinosaur, Triceratops
Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus
Dire Tiger
Phasm
Roc
Tarrasque

This list of candidates for (Pseudonatural) Phrenic X is a lot more manageable. I think I'll take a closer look at it in a later post.

[Lix Lorn]

Phrenic T-Rex?
A psychic t-rex would be VERY recognisable and massively awesome. I'd vote for it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Abyssal Greater Basilisk
Dinosaur, Triceratops
Dinosaur, Tyrannosaurus
Dire Tiger
Phasm
Roc
Tarrasque

Of these, the most reasonable candidate is the phasm. It's strength is nothing to write home about (but then, neither would be the strength of a miniature tarrasque or t-rex), but for the tower scene it can be hand-waved by him changing into "the weakest creature it knows"* - except he got it wrong (since it is innocent!MitD) and picked a very strong creature instead. Something similar could be said about the earthquake - he picked the shape of his broken action figure, who it turns out is a very strong monster.

With the templates to give it teleportation, that would fit all three scenes (it is fairly ugly). And fits under the umbrella.

But of course, as with all things template-related, it lacks the crucial evidence about him being psionic, or half-stuff.

Grey Wolf

* His actual description is "If pursued or harassed, a phasm transforms into the most fearsome creature it knows and attacks". In the tower scene, of course, he had a different motivation, but MitD can, after all, be trusted to screw up.

[Lord Bingo]

The Pit Fiend fits all three scenes as well as any of these other 15+HD creatures without a template -it has access to Wish all on its very own The "only" problem with it regarding the big three, as far as I can see, is that it is a Pit Fiend.

I like it a lot, but I seem to remember we have had that conversation before

edit: almost forgot, The Phasm is CR7

[137beth]

@above: the pit fiend is also somewhat...big.

The fact that the phasm is CR 7 really isn't much of a problem, since those are just suggested stats, it could have a lot of HD added.

[Bongos]

Wow people are still suggesting Tarrasque? Am going to have to create another graphic lampooning all the tarrasque suggestions?

[LuPuWei]

Wow people are still suggesting Tarrasque? Am going to have to create another graphic lampooning all the tarrasque suggestions?

Pimp my Tarrasque again! I dare you! I double-dare you! Pimp my Tarrasque one more time!

Oh...

You were finished?..

[Lord Bingo]

@above: the pit fiend is also somewhat...big.

The Pit Fiend is Large, but that is within the acceptable size range that has been established for the MitD.

The problem as far as I see is that it is an outsider from the lower planes and that Rich's comments (W&XPs) seem to indicate that morality plane creatures cannot change alignments more than slightly. Not having been brought up on the lower planes might account for the more neutral disposition of the MitD (good still requires commitment) but it does require some hand waving.

Still, IMO having access to wish (as well as greater teleport) as a spell-like ability, good strength and defenses, and several knowledge skills makes it a great candidate without us having to template it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Pit Fiend is Large, but that is within the acceptable size range that has been established for the MitD.

The problem as far as I see is that it is an outsider from the lower planes and that Rich's comments (W&XPs) seem to indicate that morality plane creatures cannot change alignments more than slightly. Not having been brought up on the lower planes might account for the more neutral disposition of the MitD (good still requires commitment) but it does require some hand waving.

Still, IMO having access to wish (as well as greater teleport) as a spell-like ability, good strength and defenses, and several knowledge skills makes it a great candidate without us having to template it.

Remember too the other problem, beyond the morality: the circus scene. I can see the audience not being knowledgeable on the big, red, winged-and-horned creature being a demon, daemon, fiend, devil, or some other denizen of hell and related evil planes. But I cannot imagine someone looking at it and saying "I've never seen anything like it". I'm sorry, but we've all seen things like demons. As far as forerrunners go, that is a big problem.

Grey Wolf

[IronWilliam]

I also think Pit Fiends can speak common.

[Lord Bingo]

Remember too the other problem, beyond the morality: the circus scene. I can see the audience not being knowledgeable on the big, red, winged-and-horned creature being a demon, daemon, fiend, devil, or some other denizen of hell and related evil planes. But I cannot imagine someone looking at it and saying "I've never seen anything like it". I'm sorry, but we've all seen things like demons. As far as forerrunners go, that is a big problem.

The Circus scene does present a wee problem too, I agree. Still, having seen pictures of denizens of the lower planes hardly equates having seen one in the flesh and there is also the possibility that the "I've never seen anything like it" refers to the "show" the MitD puts on (of which we have no knowledge beyond that it is hard). The Pit Fiends entry describes how it likes to appear wrapped in a grotesque cloak of its own wings wreathed in flame. I am not sure that this will account for all of the varied reactions but I think it is good enough.

As to the matter of language that IronWilliam mentions it is true that the Pit Fiend speaks Common, but perhaps the SBGHs surprise stemmed not from the MitDs ability to speak in the first place but from them not expecting that the Pit Fiend would address them -and least of all in Common, rather than its native tongue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(of which we have no knowledge beyond that it is hard).

Not quite true. It is hard in MitD's opinion, but not in the opinion of his handler, which characterises it as "just standing there"

Grey Wolf

[Killed to Death]

Maybe a Centaur?

Pros:
-Strong
-4 legs (stomp?)
-Large

Cons:
-Too common for explain audiences reaction
-Can speak
-(Probably others, but that's all I can think of)

Could have taken some kinda class that explains O'Chul and V's escape

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe a Centaur?

Pros:
-Strong
-4 legs (stomp?)
-Large

Cons:
-Too common for explain audiences reaction
-Can speak
-(Probably others, but that's all I can think of)

Could have taken some kinda class that explains O'Chul and V's escape

From the first post: Centaur
Not strong enough, can't explain the earthquake, the tower scene, the circus scene or the escape.

GW

[redcodekevin]

You know, I never reach the end of these threads, when everyone starts flinging templates to each other I get tired. I think you cannot recognize a template right away, which would kill the point of it being recognizable by most.

I just have one question: has anyone, ever suggested that the MitD is one of the Wild Things?



Big strenght, yellow eyes, can swallow whole... I could not explain the Escape and I guess other stuff, though I have not read the books (only saw the movie)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think you cannot recognize a template right away, which would kill the point of it being recognizable by most.

Thankfully, being recognisable by most has never been a requirement of MitD.

I just have one question: has anyone, ever suggested that the MitD is one of the Wild Things?

Big strenght, yellow eyes, can swallow whole... I could not explain the Escape and I guess other stuff, though I have not read the books (only saw the movie)

No, no-one has suggested it yet. What is its copyright status? Although it is probably moot, since even if they are free from copyright, they can't explain the escape scene, as you pointed out. Also, aren't they just the creation of the boy's imagination?

Grey Wolf

[JonestheSpy]

Also, aren't they just the creation of the boy's imagination?

Whether Max imagined the Wild Things or whether they actually existed is entirely open to interpretation - nothing definitive either way (though I think in the live movie they definitely exist).

[Kalkkis]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think that first post should mention strip 709 under Section 2b: abilities, Rain

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I think that first post should mention strip 709 under Section 2b: abilities, Rain

That would be redundant. It is no more clear than in #550 that MitD is the cause of the rain - indeed, it remains a very unlikely possibility - and the fact that in #709 it is the punchline in fact weakens the case for the page.

Grey Wolf