MC Paladin/Warlock before level 5

[Escribblings]

Building a Paladin Warlock, starting with the Pally.

Normal opinion is you don't MC before level 5 as it delays extra attack.

But if you MC before 5 and take Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, does that make up for losing the extra attack?

I'm guessing if you were after BB, it best emulates extra attack at level 5 where it gains the extra 1d8 to hit.

GFB however it's good against groups, which in my limited experience is what you seen to face most at the lower levels.

[Paeleus]

BB and GFB kinda put a bandaid on the lack of Extra Attack. More so if you can add a mod to the fire damage (a la Undying Light Warlock).

The big thing you miss is an extra d20 roll. That can mean more Divine Smites and more chances to crit.

[Escribblings]

Cool.

Looking at the tables, and based on that, I think I'll take Paladin (Devotion) to 6, possibly with magic initiate (depending on my rolls), then work on Warlock (GOO Blade) to 4.

From there on in its anybody's guess.

[Citan]

Building a Paladin Warlock, starting with the Pally.

Normal opinion is you don't MC before level 5 as it delays extra attack.

But if you MC before 5 and take Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, does that make up for losing the extra attack?

I'm guessing if you were after BB, it best emulates extra attack at level 5 where it gains the extra 1d8 to hit.

GFB however it's good against groups, which in my limited experience is what you seen to face most at the lower levels.

BB and GFB kinda put a bandaid on the lack of Extra Attack. More so if you can add a mod to the fire damage (a la Undying Light Warlock).

The big thing you miss is an extra d20 roll. That can mean more Divine Smites and more chances to crit.

It can be much more worth than just a band aid. As you said, the main drawback is one attack less, so one lesser chance to hit and possibly smite.
Now...
- Devotion and Vengeance both help much in the way of to-hit chance. Add to that a possible Bless for toughest fights.
- Up until lvl 6-7, Paladin doesn't really feel that stronger when Smiting, and has trouble choosing where to spend resources.
- GreenFlame Blade at level 5 is already providing secondary damage damn close to a weapon attack.
- Booming Blade gives damage that is a bit lesser but the rider makes it useful in many situations.

So basically the only real loss you have by multiclassing as a "magic sword" Paladin is the ability to spend one more smite on a single turn, unless you built your Paladin as a GWM feat wielder.

What do you gain in exchange? Short-rest slots.

Compare a full Paladin level 5 with a Paladin 3 / Warlock 2 (probable split), both point stat, having a 16 in attack stat
Single-class has 4st 1st level slots, 2 2nd level.
Dual-class has 3 long rest 1st level slots, 2*1st short rest.
As long as DM follows the guidelines (or is not too strict on how to get a short rest in general), dual-class would end with 4 additional first-level slots.
So let's compare (4*1st + 2*2nd) to (3+2+2+2)*1st, in the hypothesis that everything is blown on Divine Smite.

In the long run...
Single class would end with a total of (4*2+2*3)d8 = 14d8.
Dual-class would end with a total of (9*2)d8 = 18d8.
Dual-class easily win (even without short rest, it's actually equal).

In burst round against a single enemy (supposing all hit)
Single class would end with 2 weapon attacks, to which you would add 2nd level smites: ((1d8+3)+3d8)*2 = 8d8 + 6.
Dual-class would end with Booming Blade + smite, dealing 1d8+3+1d8+2d8 (and possible 2d8 if it moves) = from 4d8 to 6d8 + 3.
Single class has a clear edge on burst.
But this advantage will be washed away as soon as dual-class takes his third Warlock level. From that, the dual-class will stay far above the single-class whatever happens.

[Escribblings]

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

Assuming I'm aiming for P6/W4 at L10...

What do you think would be the best way to advance - I'm starting as Paladin 1 no matter what.

[Ovarwa]

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

Assuming I'm aiming for P6/W4 at L10...

What do you think would be the best way to advance - I'm starting as Paladin 1 no matter what.

Depends what you want to *do*.

If melee is to be your thing, P6 and then W4 is completely good. ASI at levels 4 and 10. Awesome saving throw bonus at 6, my favorite paladin ability. 2nd attack at 5. Depending on your Oath, you might even want P7 first. (+Cha to melee or resistance to all spell damage, etc? some of these are very good)

But P1, W4, P2..6 is also doable. Eldritch Blast attacks at level 5. Shillelagh for Cha-based melee at level 3 with Tome. ASI at 5 and 8.

All sorts of other choices. I'd take a close look at every level you expect to play to make sure you're happy with what you get.

Anyway,

Ken

[Escribblings]

Well I'm looking at Devotion and GOO Blade if that helps

Which oath adds cha to melee at 7?

Devotion is protection from charm, Ancients(Warding) is protection from spells, and Vengeance allows you to escape melee with an opportunity attack.

[Citan]

Well I'm looking at Devotion and GOO Blade if that helps

Honestly, there is no real bad choice here because the two classes synergize so well.

With that said, there are a few things that may push the balance towards one end or another.

1. GWM: if you plan on getting it early (like at first ASI or as variant human feat), then you should aim for Extra Attack first absolutely:
with Sacred Weapon and Bless in play, you can reliably enough use the high risk/high damage feature, so you will like having an Extra Attack as soon as possible. Then, even if Blade Pact would also give you the ability to Extra Attack, I'd rather suggest going Paladin 6 first to get much better defense, unless you plan on an end build with "low-level" Paladin.

2. TWF: although I don't see why you would take this this Paladin doesn't get the related fighting style, just for reference, this makes also Extra Attack better. Of course, if you include one level of Fighter to get the Fighting Style it gets better, but it's still not optimal.

3. Sword & Board: you really don't care that much about Extra Attack: you can either pick it later once you get Warlock or Paladin up to 5 for more flexibility, or pick Shield Master to Shove prone as bonus action. So do the dual-class ASAP. Confer post above: you temporarily lose for burst damage during 2 levels, but it's a net win overall.

4. Warcaster: if you plan on getting this, ensure you got Booming Blade just before because it will make this very worth your while.

5. End build and Pact choice: if your end build aims towards Paladin 5+, I suggest you don't take Blade pact and instead pick up Tome, unless you plan on taking the 4+ Paladin levels very late, like after Warlock 7 or so. Why?
- Sacred Weapon makes your weapon magic already.
- The Extra Attack invocation is useless, unless you use it while you level up as a Warlock, then swap it on the last Warlock level you take just before/after taking the Paladin's 5th level.
- On the other hand, Tome is a good way to ensure you get all the cantrips you need, with the additional option to use Shillelagh to become totally Single-Ability Dependent (which means, in turn, more space for feats).

EDIT: The Oath with +CHA to damage is Oathbreaker, so the one you become when you totally betray your values beyond redemption (up to the DM).
It's not usually an Oath to take into play from the start, but well...
I would suggest you stick with your initial concept (fluff > mechanic) especially since you would be very efficient already.
But it all you care about is dealing damage, then Undying Warlock 1-3-5 (for smite) / Oathbreaker Paladin 7 is all you need (provided you hit though, that's the great point of Devotion/Vengeance).

For Devotion Paladin / GOO Warlock, I'd suggest...

1/ Either you never care about GWM: take Tome Pact, with quarterstaff and Shillelagh: later you can take either Polearm Master, Sentinel, Warcaster or Shield Master depending on your style.
Pick your first level of Warlock as early as you want, although I would propose...
Paladin 2: first level spells, smite
> Warlock 1: Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade (unless you can't cope with Javelins for now, then take Eldricht Blast), short-rest slot for Bless.
> Paladin 3: Sacred Weapon for better to hit
> Warlock 3: better smites, extra spells, Shillelagh, Thorns Whip, Eldricht Blast/Booming Blade/whatever else you want, Rituals invocation
> Paladin 4: +CHA
> Warlock 4: Warcaster (better reaction and concentration) or Shield Master (shove before you cast the cantrips) or Polearm Master (if you plan on switching to Extra Attack as your usual tactic) or Mounted Combatant (if you plan on using Find Steed).
> Paladin 6: additional spells, Extra Attack and Aura of Protection.
> Warlock 5 to get even better smites.
Then whatever you like.

As for spells, really, you can take whatever you like. The only ones that you should have are Bless and Armor of Agathys (especially if you use Find Steed ;)).

2/ You care about GWM but plan on taking it later:
Follow the same plan except for feats choice. Or start Paladin up to 3, then go Warlock Blade Pact straight up to 5 (ASI=+2STR), taking the related invocation for Extra Attack, then Paladin up to 6 (ASI:GWM), then finish Warlock (swapping the now useless invocation ASAP).

3/ You care about having GWM as early as possible:
Start Paladin and go straight up to 4 (GWM), then pick Warlock 1 (because it's still good to have BB and GFB for some situations and short-rest Bless will help much) then go back Paladin up to 8 (Extra Attack, ASI +2 STR).

[djreynolds]

With bless and possibly sacred weapon/vow enmity you shouldn't miss much and should be able to land BB/GFB.

And unsure if it is RAW/RAI... could use GWM on top it.

So that extra attack can certainly wait

[Citan]

With bless and possibly sacred weapon/vow enmity you shouldn't miss much and should be able to land BB/GFB.

And unsure if it is RAW/RAI... could use GWM on top it.

So that extra attack can certainly wait

You can use GWM on top of weapon cantrips.
But that's the point: if you have GWM, you usually want as many weapon attacks as possible (whereas otherwise, weapon cantrips equal Extra Attack early on and trump it easily at lvl 11): the difference between "Extra Attack with GWM" and "cantrip with GWM" only washes out once you get around character level 11, depending on stats and frequency of bonus action (unless you stack Polearm Master on GWM to get permanent bonus action attacks, which is usually the case).
Before lvl 11 (washing out bonus action attack and riders because realistically you took +2 STR and GWM, no Polearm Master yet, and you can't always ensure the enemy will move):
GWM Extra Attack: (1d10+4+10)*2, average 19,5*2 = 39.
GWM Booming Blade: 1d10+4+10+1d8, average 19,5+4,5 = 24.
If rider triggered, additional +9 average.

At level 11:
GWM Extra Attack = same, average 39.
GWM Booming Blade = same + 1d8 = 29,5.
Rider gives additional +14,5 average.

At level 12 (hypothesis):
Extra Attack with ASI spent on Polearm Master means another 19,5 consistently.
Booming Blade won't change.
Of course, in the latter case, you will probably spend the ASI on Warcaster instead to increase the reaction damage by a significant amount, but it's a choice the other could make.

So, "GWM Booming Blade" is competitive as soon as lvl 11 only if the rider is triggered. Otherwise it's a loss. Same could be said for Green Flame Blade.

There is also the Warlock's Lifedrinker invocation to consider: this is another great weight toward Extra Attack instead of cantrips (I forgot to take it into account in my previous post I realize now, but no time to make changes). :)
As well as Paladin's extra 1d8 on melee attacks. ;)

[Dappershire]

So I haven't played 5E, though I'm interested. But how in the hell (heh) do you fluff such a character?
I keep seeing this combo of Paladin Warlock come up because 'optimized'. But...like...how?

I can understand the devil wanting a paladin's soul, but how does the paladin not instantly fall? Even if its not Infernal patronage, a Great Old One is just as bad, on the chaos spectrum, possibly the evil spectrum, and definitely the madness spectrum. Even an Arch Fey, being so alien in thought and expectation, should make a Paladin fall. Any major oath to any service other than the God in question should be grounds for dismissal.
Do players explain this for their characters? Or do DMs not care? "Palock? Cool. Smiting Hex all over my face. Lets do this." It just makes so little sense to me.

[Citan]

So I haven't played 5E, though I'm interested. But how in the hell (heh) do you fluff such a character?
I keep seeing this combo of Paladin Warlock come up because 'optimized'. But...like...how?

I can understand the devil wanting a paladin's soul, but how does the paladin not instantly fall? Even if its not Infernal patronage, a Great Old One is just as bad, on the chaos spectrum, possibly the evil spectrum, and definitely the madness spectrum. Even an Arch Fey, being so alien in thought and expectation, should make a Paladin fall. Any major oath to any service other than the God in question should be grounds for dismissal.
Do players explain this for their characters? Or do DMs not care? "Palock? Cool. Smiting Hex all over my face. Lets do this." It just makes so little sense to me.

Hmm, it may be because I'm not very much familiar with the specific D&d setting and all implications but...

From what I read into both Paladin and Warlock classes, it does not seem THAT complex to me, except when taking really extreme dispersion such as Fiend / Devotion.

But imo, the fact that the fluff works or not depends first and foremost on how the DM interprets the restraints on behavior put by both Oath and Patron.

For example, I don't see why a Vengeance Paladin could not make a pact with a Fiend entity: after all, "by all means necessary" is one of his tenets.

The Great Old One "fluff" says explicitely that one may have found a way to draw power from these entities without the latters being even aware or taking the slightest interest.
So, if a Devotion Paladin was facing a threat upon life in general that he feels he is powerless to stop by furthering his Paladin skills, why wouldn't he try to find another way?
Of course, you could argue that a true Paladin would put a total faith in his own path in the first place.

Hence the reason why I think it's up to the DM.
Is following the Paladin path a strict requirement to respect your Oath? Then whatever Patron won't work without you breaking your Oath.
Is following the Paladin path all about striving to respect its written tenets, even if it means bending the means in some occasions? Then it's up to the player to explain why just keeping on Paladin path would prove insufficient to achieve his goals.
And that is the "hardest" way, when you start Paladin to continue Warlock.

The reverse could be substantially easier: you just took a Pact with a Patron that led you to commit crimes that went far and beyond what you wanted to do. Torn with regret, you seek repentance as well as a way to properly break (or just adapt worst case, but I think breaking is more coherent) your relationship with the Patron. This would make for a lifetime goal for the character which one reached, would make him ultimately lose his Warlocks power if the DM wanted so. But until then, it would explain why you still tend to use your Warlock powers as a Paladin.

After all, if you let a bandit escape you because you didn't want to use your Warlock powers to stun/down him and you know people are gonna be hurt as a consequence, wouldn't that be failing your "protect all life" tenet much more than just using everything you have to capture him?

You also strongly implies that any and all Paladins are necessarily Lawful, while Warlocks would have no other choice than to be Chaotic. I just don't see why.
On Paladin side, "justice" is really a very arbitrary and partial notion, as anyone can learn when studying cultural differences between countries, or just evolution of "morality and law" throughout history.
Even the "Devotion" one, that you could intuitively view as intrinsically Lawful, does not say that.

Even worse for Ancients, which makes "preserving all life" a priority: in a setting where death penalty is probably common, a Paladin that stops someone from committing a crime and see a sincere chance of him chancing his way, would he really give him to authorities knowing that he may be executed on the spot?

Would a Vengeance Paladin patiently wait for one of his enemy to come out of some place in town, just because "breaking and entering" is forbidden by law?

On Warlock side, there is absolutely nothing that forces them, by RAW, to act exactly the same way as their Patrons. It all depends on what DM decide. And on the contrary, it could make for interesting roleplay for a player to have a character that is naturally Lawful but has a "direct" relationship with a Patron that tries to make him act in a Chaotic way (because then the character has to either play smart to "obey without obeying", or try and propose another way to do things that may be agreeable by both).

TL;DR: nothing in the PHB strictly forbids any combination. While a few of them are indeed counter-intuitive, anything may work depending on how both player and DM interpret the duties one has towards his own Oath or his engagement towards a godly entity.

[Millstone85]

But how in the hell (heh) do you fluff such a character?

For this specific character, the OP made a separate thread to figure out the fluff.

[Escribblings]

So I haven't played 5E, though I'm interested. But how in the hell (heh) do you fluff such a character?
I keep seeing this combo of Paladin Warlock come up because 'optimized'. But...like...how?

[snip]

Well, it is a good question. As mentioned above I have already started a thread to try and reconcile this on here.

I also had this conversation in the OOC of the game I'm currently in:

In reply to Balik Giantborne (msg # 461):

... Devotion/GOO? o.O

How does that happen?

Good question, and one I haven't totally solved yet.

I have been doing much reading. The problem with the GOO being ineffable is that no one can describe it!

Because of this, everyone points to Cthulu (my knowledge of HPL is even more lacking than that of DnD).

However, a ray of light has pointed out the path to me.

Unlike the Fiend or the Fey, you technically don't make a pact with the GOO. You get sucked in and get your powers by some strange event.

The GOO is ineffable and incomprehensible, but somehow gets you to do stuff for it. Maybe through a cryptic vision, maybe through some sort of harbinger, sign or omen. And here's the kicker - maybe what he gets you to do is not what is important, but something that you do on the path to that goal sets in motion a chain of events that ends up with the result the GOO wants.

i.e. You get strange vision about a chess piece floating in the sea, then you sight a lonely tower in the middle of a lake from a hillock. To get there you have to go through a forest.

You get to the tower and free a maiden, or whatever - but on the way to the tower, as you push through the forest, you disturb a butterfly. And as it flaps it;s wings a chain of events are put into place that cause a massive storm on the other side of the world.

Now a Paladin serving the Oath of devotion could stumble across something bathed in a unnatural ray of light, maybe in a cave coming from what he thinks is a chink in the ceiling but is in fact a tear in the fabric of reality. Drawn to this light he is overcome. When he awakes he has new powers but believes them to have been imparted by the the deity of his order rather than an otherworldly being.


What I think fits quite well mechanically are the GOO's almost psionic benefits, and the blades weapon being fluffed as a holy weapon.

If our GM let's me create this character (I may have to wait until I retire one of my other two first), I'm hoping he will actually let me use EB when the time comes, but to give radiant damage as opposed to force. I mean for one, it actually weakens it due to resistances and immunity, but thematically is a better fit IMO

What do you think???

[snip]

5. End build and Pact choice: if your end build aims towards Paladin 5+, I suggest you don't take Blade pact and instead pick up Tome, unless you plan on taking the 4+ Paladin levels very late, like after Warlock 7 or so. Why?
- Sacred Weapon makes your weapon magic already.
- The Extra Attack invocation is useless, unless you use it while you level up as a Warlock, then swap it on the last Warlock level you take just before/after taking the Paladin's 5th level.
- On the other hand, Tome is a good way to ensure you get all the cantrips you need, with the additional option to use Shillelagh to become totally Single-Ability Dependent (which means, in turn, more space for feats).

EDIT: The Oath with +CHA to damage is Oathbreaker, so the one you become when you totally betray your values beyond redemption (up to the DM).
It's not usually an Oath to take into play from the start, but well...
I would suggest you stick with your initial concept (fluff > mechanic) especially since you would be very efficient already.

[snip]

Not interested in OB - Trying to stay on the path of devotion.

I thought about Tome. But although it is better mechanically to have Shillelagh, A Paladin in plate with a shield wielding a wooden club doesn't cut it image wise for me. And I would much rather have a sword than an axe, club or hammer.

Going Blade gives me this - and allows me to fluff it as being a weapon bestowed by my God, even if it isn't.

(On that note, I think I might get my Pally to follow Lathander. I've done some "quick" research on notable Paladinic orders, and I quite like the sound of the Order of the Aster

I'm planning on Duelling for Sword and Board. Either DMG Aasimar or Var. Human. House rule in our game is VH doesn't get his bonus feat until L4, so at L4 I would get ASI and 1 feat, or 2 feats.

I'm considering, going V. Human and taking Magic Initiate to boost cantrips and spells. Although the Aasimar's Light cantrip and Lesser Restoration spell are interesting, I could get 2 cantrips and 1 1st level spell from any class of my choice (although they have to come from the same class) - realistically this means Bard, Sorcerer or Warlock as they all use CHA as their ability, and I'd have to use that ability.

War Caster is also interesting - although Aura of protection my be better (a flat +3 ( is possible) on all saves to me and my party within 10ft, and may be better than advantage on con saves only on concentration spells.

The somatic bit is nice, but not essential (I think)

Now casting a spell instead of an opportunity attack - a second chance to cast Green Flame or Booming Blades, now that I like. But it's only on opportunity. Is it really worth it for that?

In the end, a lot will depend on the base rolls for the char anyway.

Also - and this is the real kick in the teeth for me right now. My GM doesn't support SCAG at the moment (although it may be coming very soon - which is why I included form the offset).



As for where I want to take it after P6/W4, I'm undecided.

Looking at the levels, there are some things I definitely want and others that don't seem that useful (right now anyway)

Paladin

1. • Devine Sense - Meh
   • Lay On Hands - Yes
2. • Fighting Style - Yes (probably Duelling although they all bring something to the table)
   • Spells - Yes
   • Divine Smite - Hell Yes
3. • Divine Health - Nice
   • Sacred Oath (Devotion)
     • (Channel Divintiy) Sacred Weapon - Yes
     • (Channel Divinity) Turn the Unholy - Meh
4. ASI - Always Welcome
5. Extra Attack - Always Welcome
6. Aura Of Protection - Yes
7. Aura Of Devotion - Meh
8. ASI - Always Welcome
9. Nothing
10. Aura of Courage - Meh
11. Improved Divine Smite - Yes
12. ASI - Always Welcome
13. Nothing
14. Cleansing Touch - Meh
15. Purity of Spirit - Meh
16. ASI - Always Welcome

Warlock

1. • Pact Magic - Yes (and not subject to spell Multiclassing rules)
   • Patron Feature (GOO), Awakened Mind - Yes
2. Eldritch Invocations - Yes
3. Pact Boon (Blade) - Hell yes
4. ASI - Always Welcome
5. Nothing
6. Entropic Ward - Meh
7. Nothing
8. ASI - Always Welcome
9. Nothing
10. Thought Shield - Nice
11. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
12. ASI - Always Welcome
13. Mystic Arcanum - Nice
14. Create Thrall - Meh

Looking at those lists next to each other, aiming for Improved Divine Smite seems better than Thought Shield.

With that in mind, to squeeze the ASI I think I would aim for a L20 P12/W8.

It's that or freeze Warlock at 4 and take Paladin to 16.

I think the former as the Warlock spell slots and Invocations are probably more useful.

Or not...

The difference is 2 long rest level 5 spells or 2 invocations.

[Citan]

I thought about Tome. But although it is better mechanically to have Shillelagh, A Paladin in plate with a shield wielding a wooden club doesn't cut it image wise for me. And I would much rather have a sword than an axe, club or hammer.

Going Blade gives me this - and allows me to fluff it as being a weapon bestowed by my God, even if it isn't.

No need to say further. Fluff > Mechanics, especially here since you found a "mechanical way" to link the features & fluff between Warlock and Paladin. GG :)

On to other points:

- Magic Initiate: since you stay Blade, this is a good choice: I would suggest Warlock (so you get another spell known) or Sorcerer (for a "oh sh**" 1/long Shield) to get the weapon cantrips.
- Spell Sniper: this could also be considered: you could use it to learn Eldricht Blast and get a pretty powerful ranged attack. A strong contender if you thought about taking the Repelling or Agonizing Blast invocation. Otherwise, Magic Initiate may get you more mileage on the long run.
- Warcaster: I'd say it's not essential at start but will quickly become mandatory: since you will go S&B, you won't have any hand free, at least for your Warlock spells (for Paladin, you *may* eventually get a "focus shield" and your DM may consider that even if you are actually holding the shield in your hand you can still take care of somatic).
Also consider that, for a dueling Paladin at level 5, a normal attack on reaction will be 1d8+4+2 (starting stats + 1 STR bump).
Using Booming Blade will net you extra 1d8 immediately, plus 2d8 if enemy moves. So from 40% to >100% increase in damage. Not too shabby right? :)

EDIT: saw the bit about DM not allowing SCAG. Tough luck indeed, makes Warcaster lose quite some of its appeal...
Although it could still give you some opportunities as "reaction spell" go: Command / Hold Person for spells (even Dissonant Whispers could have its use if it allows you to "redirect" enemy movement in a direction that could trigger allies's opportunity attacks).
Repelling Blast would also be nice (you'd first roll with disadvantage, but as soon as the one connects you push it away so the next rolls won't be).
Or Shocking Grasp from Sorcerer if you want to damage him and allow everyone around to move away safely...

[Escribblings]

Food for thought.

I'll have to take a look at the invocations to see which ones I want.

[Escribblings]

I've looked through the PHB, EE and SCAG. (SCAG is the only one not currently supported, but may be soon)

I've considered the lists above, and unless I dip a 3rd class, I think Improved Divine Smite outweighs 1/2 psychic damage and 1 L6 spell per long rest (although I haven't looked at those spells yet).

For the cantrips the ones that interest me the most are

• PHB
  • Eldritch Blast
  • Shocking Grasp
  • True Strike (possibly)
• SCAG
  • Booming Blade
  • Green Flame Blade
  • Lightning Lure (Possibly)

Obviously for Cantrips, apart from Shocking Grasp, they are all on the Warlock list which is nice. Can't see any other Warlock, bard or Sorcerer cantrips that interest me right now.

A lot is going to come down to slots...

Magic Initiate gives 2 cantrips (and an additional L1 spell).
Spell Sniper gives 1 cantrip (and doubles range on attack roll spells - nice).
The Warlock starts with 2 cantrips.
Then gains a cantrip at levels 4 and 10

L10 (plus however many paladin levels) is too late for a Cantrip, and I want L4 anyway, so I can look at...

2-3 cantrips without feats
3-4 with Spell Sniper
4-5 with Magic Initiate
or 5-6 with both.

so how important are the other feats? Good question? I'll look at them in a minute.

And what about spells?

Ah, now that's an interesting one. Lets deal with them first...


Warlock 4 - Spells known 5, Slots 2x L2
Warlock 8 - Spells known 9, Slots 2x L4 (Moar Powah!!!)

Paladin - Spells Known ALL
Paladin 12 - Slots 4x L1, 3x L2, 3x L3
Paladin 16 - Slots 4x L1, 3x L2, 3x L3, 2x L4

Assuming 1 short rest per day that gives a total (slots/long rest)
P12/W8 - 4x L1, 3x L2, 3x, L3, 4x L4 (14) +2 L4, -4 L2
P16/W4 - 4x L1, 7x L2, 3x L3, 2x L4 (16) +4 L2, -2 L4

And invocations?

Warlock 4 gets 2
Warlock 8 gets 4

• Agonizing Blast (needs Eldritch Blast)
• Devil's sight (more useful to Var Human than Aasimar as they have darkvision)
• Eldritch Sight (Detect Magic at will)
• Eldritch Spear (needs Eldritch Blast, extends range from 120' to 300' - or 240' to 600' with spell sniper (if they stack, otherwise mostly negated by spell sniper))
• Fiendish Vigour (False Life at will and no material component, 1d4+4 temp HP)
• Thirsting Blade (needs 5th level warlock, Second Attack with Pact Weapon - And actually, may be better than BB or GFB, but have to wait for it) [edit] Doesn't stack with Pally extra attack, but if taking Warlock to 5 before Pally to 5 then useful - AND can be swapped out if taking Warlock higher

Of those, Agonizing Blast and Thirsting Blade are the most interesting to me. Followed by the others (minus Eldritch Spear if Spell Sniper taken)

God this is confusing.

Right, feats!

Defensive Dualist - Unlikely. Good if Dex 13 and using shortsword, but much more likely to be using longsword.
Great Weapon Master - Maybe
Mage Slayer - Maybe - Especially if the Advantage stacks with Aura of Protection
Magic Initiate - maybe, although Spell Sniper might actually be better for me.
Martial Adept - Only if I dip fighter and take Battlemaster
Mounted Combatant - Undecided, if I use find steed it's a little immaterial.
Savage Attacker - Meh, maybe
Sentinel - Contender
Shield Master - Maybe
Spell Sniper - Contender
War Caster - Maybe


So much choice!!!

Other options, dipping a 3rd class - probably to 4 levels to get that ASI...

Pro's possible to get more cantrips
Con's - Probably end up losing spell slots due to MC rules AND no Thirsting Blade

I think 12/8 is where it is at, or at the very least 12/5/???

[Escribblings]

I've looked at the possible 3rd class dip.

There are only 4 classes I would consider

Bard, gains cantrips but not overly keen on features. thematically, not impossible to meld but doesn't gel for me. Would be Valor over Lore though.

Fighter, only get cantrips from Eldritch Knight - possible thematic fit. Might get more mileage out of Battlemaster though. Action Surge and Second Wind are nice features. Thematically - a Paladin is a fighter, technically. Might even be a better starting class - not sure.

Rogue - sneak attack is nice, cantrips from Arcane Trickster or Assassinate from Assassin. - Doesn't gel though.

Sorcerer - more cantrips, and 1 more L4 spell slot than P12/W4/(F-EK or R-AT 4) based on the MC table. Ability to trade spell slots. Struggling to gel the Origins though - Wild would be the best, but I don't really care for it.

So I'm either looking at P12/W8

Or P12/W(4/5)/F(3/4)

W4/F4 gets an ASI/feat
W5/F3 gets Thirsting Blade - but this is temp until Paladin gets Extra Attack, and can't be swapped without taking W to 6+

Think I'll stick with P12/W8 or P12/W4/F4

Although I've confused myself even more now with all the options available.

So - Starting as a Paladin (if aiming for P12/W8) OR a Paladin or Fighter (if aiming for P12/W4/F4)

Var Human - bonus feat delayed until L4

From what I've posted above, what would seem the logical procession? My brain is melting now.

[Citan]

Hi again!

Sorry to say it like this, but it was very fun seeing you use posts to lay down your own brainstorming XD.

I think you are really overthinking this, making brainknots over nothing.
Unless you tell us you will be playing in a high-power, highly-optimized group, you should not try and get the best ever combination.

Rather, take your initial idea (Devotion / GOO), and just wonder (without spending more than 20mn on whole) if...

1) It feels "complete" fluff-wise to you...
- Fighter brings absolutely nothing more fluff-wise imo (Paladin is enough to get the "martial" / "soldier" feeling).
- Bard could help if you saw your character as a particularly charming Paladin, trying to sweettongue his way because he feels it's a better way to respect his oath than opening the path through the sword.
- Sorcerer may or not bring something depending on how you "mix" it with Warlock (because one could ask: if you already had innate magic, why rely on a deity instead of just developing your own strength?).

2) What are the Devotion / GOO features you just want to get in the end no matter happens?
This may bring a very simple answer: "because of everything I want, I don't have 'space' for a third class in the first place".

3) There is a particular combination of Devotion / GOO features or a particular gimmick that you really want to do, which would be either difficult or too rarely available for your taste without a dip in a third class.
If there is nothing that crosses your mind, don't read the spoiler. ;)

Spoiler

Show

- For example, readying for the fight of the day by using Fighter 2's Action Surge to activate Sacred Weapon and still get a "full normal turn".
- Getting up to 3 Sorcery points because you want the slot converstion to use Blur or whatever else on every fight.
- Getting more solo survivability by learning Bard 1's Healing Words or Sorcerer 1's Shield.
- Being reasonably good at everything with Bard 2's Jack of all Trades.
- Becoming the one that prones enemies thanks to Rogue's Expertise in Athletics and Shield Master

Keep in mind that...
- Multiclassing is "hard" in the way that you will feel some dead levels because of it while other players gain more powerful features. So if you are not used to it, better stay dual-class, with *maybe* just one single-level dip in a third class later.
- Again, this dual-class is strong in itself, so you don't have to worry about being a weight.

Now in spite of everything I said, I still feel compelled to react on your final split: why Paladin 12 over Warlock 12?
Is it because of the 3rd level spells (which are indeed very good), or the improved damage on melee weapon attacks?
I dareask because Warlock 12 gets you the same average bonus damage, but also 5th level spells (Telekinesis and Dominate Person are powerful ones), one 6th level spell (from EE, Investiture spells are very good, for your character Mass Suggestion could be nice also) and 3*5th level short rest slots.

If you chose the P12/W8 split because you envision your character as a Paladin that just has more powerful smiting and a few particular tricks up his sleeve, then it is the right choice by all means (fluff > mechanics ;)).
If you made this choice for mechanical reasons, then my opinion is that the "mirror" split would be better.

Anyways, one last time, whatever you choose you will have more than enough oomph to contribute fairly in any party. So choose light-hearted...

Or don't choose at all, just start as suggested until character level 5 or so then just choose whimsically each time you get to level up. Works fine too (arguably better in fact because you will have all past experiences up to then to weight each option). ;)

Have fun (as a priority)!

[Escribblings]

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

What do I want? - Am I overthinking?

good question! - Most probably, yes.

Well, I primarily see the character as a Paladin.

W12 may be mechanically better, but it doesn't really sit with me.

I definitely want P6, and apart from the ASI at P8, P7,9 and 10 don't really bring much that I see at the moment (although gameplay may turn that on it head - my current Goliath Barbarian was aiming to be a greatsword wielding monster, but the last fight we had was against perytons and I got more mileage/damage out of grappling them and dragging them through a magical bonfire than hitting them for half damage).

I also definitely want W4 - I chose this route over F4-EK as the spell slots are short rest and don't effect the number of slots when multiclassing

A P6/W4 gets 4 L1 and 2 L2 per long rest, plus 2 L2 per short rest.

1 short rest per long rest makes that 4 L1 and 4 L2

A P4F-EK4, due to MC rules counts as a level 4 (1/2P + 1/3F-EK) spellcaster,, which gets 4 L1 and 3 L2 per long rest.

Obviously that's not a huge difference - and Weapon Bond (ish) replaces Pact Weapon.

But the difference is increased with more short rests per long, PLUS the invocations.

Then again, looking at EK, the extra ASI at 6 could replace an invocation, as could War Casting at 7...

I think sticking to a dual class is definitely the option. And your right, the more I look the more I confuse myself.

Partly because everything is so balanced.

P12/W8

3 ASI's + 4x1,3x2,3x3 slots/LR + 2 ASI, 2x4 slots/SR, 3 cantrips, 4 invocations and 9 known Warlock spells

P12/F-EK8 - 3 ASI's + 3 ASI's, a second fighting style, second wind, action surge and L8 MC spell slots (4x1, 3x2, 3x3, 2x4 / LR) 2 cantrips and 6 known wizard spells (that use Wis not Cha as the ability)

I think I will stick with the original plan of P12/W8

I'll take the Paladin to 6, then Warlock to 4 and then go from there... (if I'm still alive)

[Citan]

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

What do I want? - Am I overthinking?

good question! - Most probably, yes.

Well, I primarily see the character as a Paladin.

W12 may be mechanically better, but it doesn't really sit with me.

I'll take the Paladin to 6, then Warlock to 4 and then go from there... (if I'm still alive)

See? There you go, you are not that confused. ;)
Just going there should keep you occupied for a good few dozen hours at the very least, so you will have plenty of time to think about what comes after...

Have a(n Eldricht) blast!

[Escribblings]

See? There you go, you are not that confused. ;)
Just going there should keep you occupied for a good few dozen hours at the very least, so you will have plenty of time to think about what comes after...

Have a(n Eldricht) blast!

Gah I hate my brain...

Just as an aside - given the choice of routes to L10 - would you go

Starting with Paladin would you go 2, 3 or 6 levels before splitting.

If splitting at 2 or 3, would you take 2, 3, or 4 levels of Warlock before returning to paladin?

[Escribblings]

Right, sussed it (I think).

Hopefully this should be my last post on the matter.

I'm going to take Pal to 4, grab spell sniper and magic initiate as my bonus feat (delayed from L1 as per house rule).

Then take War to 4.

Then Pal to 6

I think that's the best way.

Sacrificing extra attack, but getting Booming or Green Flame blade instead makes up for it.

(And I'm going to by the GM SCAG if I have to!)

This also maintains the feat/ASI at 4 and 8.

Not sure where I'll go from level 10, it's​ either go straight for improved divine smite.

Or take the 4 warlock levels and improve the power of the basic smite.

[Asmotherion]

A) I'd take a Fighter or Sorcerer level at level 1 for con saves, for Concentration Spells like Hex.

B) I'd prioritise Warlock Levels, as they give your at-will damage output earlier, and then cross to Paladin. This way, you have a second Agonising and Hexed Eldritch Blast at level 5, which totally makes up for your second attack, 'till you get it as a Paladin. If you chose Pact of the Blade, you can also have one of your invocations be Thirsting Blade, to give you the Second Attack either way (if you want a more melee-oriented build), as well as 3rd level spell slots. (see below for more opt options)

C) For a less MAD build, you can take Pact of the Tome instead, to take Shillelagh, and then use PAM for your secondary attack. This way, your build may come online at level 5 as a Fighter 1/Warlock 3/Paladin 1, and you may continue as a Paladin from there on, 'till you get to the break point you target (2 for DS, 6 for Aura of Protection, 7 for Archetype Feature, 11 for extra damage die to your attacks etc). If you don't want the Fighter level, you can play a Human Variant to get Resiliant Constitution as your feat (or any other feat for that matter...Crossbow expert will be golden for Eldritch Blasting melee opponents), and by level 5 you are a Warlock 3/Paladin 2, with access to DS using 2nd level spell slots, and you'll be able to take PAM next level (level 6) for your second attack. By level 10, you'll have Aura of Protection, so that you'll never loose concentration. Or you can go Warlock 4/Pal 1 for a feat.

[Escribblings]

I've considered taking 1-4 levels of fighter above. And in fact, if I do dip fighter, I'm more likely to go for 4 to maintain the ASI's.

However, I'm going to focus on Paladin and warlock.

I'm not going tome, as much as it's mechanically better, it doesn't sit right with the way I envisage my character.

Similarly I'm not taking PAM as I'm going S&B.

[Arcangel4774]

If you are using UA and blade pact, the weapons in the warlock/wizard UA allow for a powerful "smite" along with a few rider affects. However for them to scale as well, you need to level up more in Warlock to make then +1 or higher weapons

[Elkreeal]

Read this thread kind of diagonally, and instead of creating another thread I thought the case was similar enough to mine to dispense that.
The following is this:
I'm playing a Aasimar Paladin that has Magic Initiate (Warlock) because at the time it seemed fine as I was expecting to take a 3 level dip into fighter for Eldritch Knight.
Now I'm at a lost, what is most beneficial: taking Multiclass levels into fighter or warlock?
Is it worth the 3 level dip into fighter or is it better for me to just take the more common 2 level dip?
If it's better to MC into warlock how bad did I bamboozle myself because of magic initiate?

[Citan]

Right, sussed it (I think).

Hopefully this should be my last post on the matter.

I'm going to take Pal to 4, grab spell sniper and magic initiate as my bonus feat (delayed from L1 as per house rule).

Then take War to 4.

Then Pal to 6

I think that's the best way.

Sacrificing extra attack, but getting Booming or Green Flame blade instead makes up for it.

(And I'm going to by the GM SCAG if I have to!)

This also maintains the feat/ASI at 4 and 8.

Not sure where I'll go from level 10, it's​ either go straight for improved divine smite.

Or take the 4 warlock levels and improve the power of the basic smite.

That's a very fine way, go for it!

A) I'd take a Fighter or Sorcerer level at level 1 for con saves, for Concentration Spells like Hex.

B) I'd prioritise Warlock Levels, as they give your at-will damage output earlier, and then cross to Paladin.

C) For a less MAD build, you can take Pact of the Tome instead, to take Shillelagh,

I should have said nothing but it's too tempting: GG for giving advice that stray between "already said" (Shillelagh, Extra Attack) and "potentially against character fluff" (Hex on a Devotion Paladin? I mean, I'm the one advocating that anything can be justified, but this one would take a very strong argumentation XD).

Read this thread kind of diagonally, and instead of creating another thread I thought the case was similar enough to mine to dispense that.
The following is this:
I'm playing a Aasimar Paladin that has Magic Initiate (Warlock) because at the time it seemed fine as I was expecting to take a 3 level dip into fighter for Eldritch Knight.
Now I'm at a lost, what is most beneficial: taking Multiclass levels into fighter or warlock?
Is it worth the 3 level dip into fighter or is it better for me to just take the more common 2 level dip?
If it's better to MC into warlock how bad did I bamboozle myself because of magic initiate?

1. If you hope achieving level 20, don't multiclass.
2. Even if you multiclassed Warlock, you didn't "bamboozle" in any way: you still got much mileage from Eldricht Blast until then, and it just means you would have learnt 2 more cantrips and 1 more spell known as a multiclass Warlock. So really no harm.
3. Warlock of Fighter are both fine, bring different things. Great boon of Fighter would be Shield spell and Action Surge. Great boon of Warlock would be short-rest slots and cantrips.
4. Multiclass is never "necessary" or "better". Confer what I said above for OP: first ask yourself if you really feel your character wouldn't feel complete as a pure Paladin, then ponder the implications of each choice of multiclass: Fighter is more or less neutral, whereas Warlock has some potentially heavy roleplay strings attached.

[Escribblings]

@Arcangel4774 - not using the UA (yet), but it's worth considering.

I'll see where I am once I get to P6/W4.

@Elkreeal - I think @Citan has pretty much got this covered, but have a good slow read through my brainstorming above, and the replies, it might help see all the options.

Plus you don't mention what oath, patron or pact you are following.

@Citan - yeah, can't see me fluffing Hex on a devotion no matter how hard I try, lol.

[Citan]

@Arcangel4774 - not using the UA (yet), but it's worth considering.

I'll see where I am once I get to P6/W4.

@Elkreeal - I think @Citan has pretty much got this covered, but have a good slow read through my brainstorming above, and the replies, it might help see all the options.

Plus you don't mention what oath, patron or pact you are following.

@Citan - yeah, can't see me fluffing Hex on a devotion no matter how hard I try, lol.

"Yeah, I put an hex on you to ensure you will agree to what I suggest you do, but don't worry it's for your own good. I know you better than yourself, I know what is good for you.
Remember, I'm the good guy*".

"Yeah, you *should* have escaped my grasp you big guy. Strange... Well, *maybe* I distorted fate a bit, but, well, you know, you will have time to ponder on your crimes while you spent the rest of your life in prison. Yeeeaah, I assure you, this is the best thing that could happen to you.
Remember, I'm the good guy*"


* and my name is Google ^^

Well, you know what, I'm sure there are many situations we could think of when Hexing someone could actually be a legitimate action, like putting a Dex disadvantage on someone so you can stop him from hurting another by just tripping him, or things like that...
That you need proficiency in concentration saves just for this kind of thing is another matter entirely... XD