OOTS #1086 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

I love the image of Durkon's Mother in the audience, crying tears of pride.

A door is doing its job perfectly if it prevents ingress by those who are unwelcome.

I wonder why these new vampire spawn, who were part of the Creed of the Stone and obviously still have some spells left prepared (one casts dispel magic) don't have at least one stone shape prepared among them, to go in through a wall instead.

That depends on how high level they were. Under 5HD and they become vanilla vampire spawns with none of the abilities they had in life.

Also, wasn't there a line about how Durkon* waited for them to have used up all of their (high level) spell slots before acting against them?

Why is Durkula hiding from the other vampires that he's asking his imprisoned soul for more information about this temple? They presumably know exactly how this whole vampirisation thing works, being vampires themselves...seems odd that he'd dissemble in this situation rather than just saying straight out he's asking Durkon for a memory.

They are slaves, they lack a free will, and likely lack a negative energy soul thingny equivalent to Durkon*. There was a clear personality difference between vampire slave Durkon and vampire Durkon*, so I'm thinking the latter simply did not yet exist yet during the slave period.

Then this happen:



Cue all the other players looking at the guy with the most flabbergasted expression ever as the DM grins.

That's pretty hilarious.

[Unoriginal]

That's pretty hilarious.

Thanks. There were some memorable and spectacular instances of idiocy, in my old group.

Like that time that low-level sorcerer PC, completely alone attacked a Death Knight whose guards he was trying to fool... with a dagger. When he had his spells ready to use.

Or the time a PC who had charged at the hobgoblin chief on his own, before fleeing through burning benches, had to be reminded that moats didn't need to have a chief to kill the people who jumped into them from a wall while critically injured.

[i6uuaq]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

I'm not too sure about this. There are credible reports of some individuals who remember every day of their life in startling detail.

One plausible explanation is that some unknown condition gives them super-memory, but it seems more plausible that the memories are already there, and that the condition allows you to access them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

[citation needed]. I do look forward to seeing a paper by the name "Memory recall of previous life by Vampiric Spirits". The control group alone must have been hellish to set up.

GW

[goodpeople25]

A coincidence I suspect. She's sitting on the family side. That would make her related to Durkon, which would have completely changed the plot. She would immediately have known Durkon's name when his letter arrived. Also she does not look that similar.

She's sitting on the side where Durkon's family (and that dosen't equal relation anyway, I believe they're mostly unrealted by blood to Durkon) is sitting that's not quite the same thing. There are more people wearing priest robes in the front and back rows as well. Plus from my experience in churches it makes sense that only Durkon's immediate family (his mom and pretty sure that's his grandfather) were allowed in front while the rest were church related and could have had something to do during the ceremony. So yeah I think the people wearing priest robes are priests unrelated to Durkon outside the priesthood, not the type to speculate on identity though.

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

Pretty sure taking one example and declaring it inaccurate due to data that absolutely does not apply to all cases is unscientific. (As in scientific principles) And you also know how this "inaccuracy" could easily be resolved (well kinda I think needing a job to remember it is going too far, but knowing about them in a capacity beyond them just being there once) on your part, but you choose to think it wouldn't apply. Also why do you choose what is of emotional significance? The mundane parts of the church might be quite emotional considering his exile.

Oh and the whole vampire and magic thing might apply.

[Kardwill]

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

I'm one of those annoying guys who will whine "but orbital mechanics don't work that way!" when watching a SciFi movie, but since we're reading a comic where a vampire evil spirit is torturing the soul of the non-human corpse it possesses in order to bypass the magical defenses of the temple of Thor... Maybe, just once, I'll let the scientific inaccuracies slide

[KorvinStarmast]

Fiend: Share your memories with me so that we may merge together and get on with this evil business.
Soul: Oh. Okay... lets get it on.
*Barry White starts playing*

Snort.

if Durkon had not been expelled, he would not have been vampirized and thus would not have returned to bring doom and gloom.

If one is going to borrow, borrow from the classics.
Oedipus, Greek mythology, Greek Tragedy.
Prophecy: he'll grow up to kill his dad
Action: get rid of him (but he survives)
Doom: he meets his dad on the road and, not knowing it's his dad, kills him in a fight/disagreement.
Prophecy fulfilled. (And yeah, he marries his mom).
From Britannica.com: (summarized)

Laius, king of Thebes, was warned by an oracle that his son would slay him. When his wife, Jocasta bore a son, he had the baby exposed (a form of infanticide) on Cithaeron. A shepherd took pity on the infant, who was adopted by King Polybus of Corinth and his wife. He was brought up as their son. In early manhood Oedipus visited Delphi and upon learning that he was fated to kill his father and marry his mother, he resolved never to return to Corinth. Traveling toward Thebes, he encountered Laius, who provoked a quarrel in which Oedipus killed him. Continuing on his way, Oedipus found Thebes plagued by the Sphinx, who put a riddle to all passersby and destroyed those who could not answer. Oedipus solved the riddle, and the Sphinx killed herself. In reward, he received the throne of Thebes and the hand of the widowed queen, his mother, Jocasta. They had four children: Eteocles, Polyneices, Antigone, and Ismene. Later, when the truth became known, Jocasta committed suicide, and Oedipus after blinding himself, went into exile, accompanied by Antigone and Ismene, leaving his brother-in-law Creon as regent.

[Cazero]

Are you kidding?

Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.

Unless you meant the dwarves who are just looking at the ceremony with a neutral expression that leaves the mouth's corners slightly dropping, but I wouldn't call that a frown.

Yes, that is what I was going for.
I litteraly picked pages at random to make that point right now.

[hamishspence]

Also she does not look that similar.

She's sitting on the side where Durkon's family (and that dosen't equal relation anyway, I believe they're mostly unrealted by blood to Durkon) is sitting that's not quite the same thing. There are more people wearing priest robes in the front and back rows as well. Plus from my experience in churches it makes sense that only Durkon's immediate family (his mom and pretty sure that's his grandfather) were allowed in front while the rest were church related and could have had something to do during the ceremony.

My guess is that the clergy of Thor are seated by rank - most important at the front (except for the High Priest, who's performing the ceremony).

Thus, it makes sense for the next in line to be High Priest, to be up at the front.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

The hair color seems like a close match.

[Keltest]

Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.

My recall is that it was originally a facet of their supreme OCD. It wasn't that they literally were physically unable to because of a magic barrier or something, simply that they were unable to bring themselves to force entry into a home where they weren't invited to.

[goodpeople25]

My guess is that the clergy of Thor are seated by rank - most important at the front (except for the High Priest, who's performing the ceremony).

Thus, it makes sense for the next in line to be High Priest, to be up at the front.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

The hair color seems like a close match.

Yeah I was thinking the higher ranked (and/or relevant, like being heavily involved in training or the like) would be at the front, (though not necessarily ordered all the way to the back but that's not really relevant) combined with my point of making it easier to get up and speak if that was a part of it. But yeah I'm leaning towards the side of it being her, just not the type confident in his abilities to recognize people in different images or speculate that much.

[Kardwill]

I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.

Ans as a narrative tool, it's quite handy. It means the evil bad guy that can turn into smoke won't enter your house to kill you in your sleep... But it also mean that nice stranger asking for a shelter from the storm might be an undead horror trying to slaughter your whole family. That gives a nice paranoid mood, with villagers hiding behind their doorstep duringt the night, and give a small chance to the hero (until he accepts the invitation from the nice baron to eat and sleep in the old castle, of course. Then things get interesting ^^)
It allows all kind of ruse and loopholes for a smart undead to show he's still the master around there, allows stories about what is a threshold and what is not, etc...
A very nice narrative tool, and a pretty small chink into the armor of one of the most overpowered critters ever invented by mankind. Buffy/angel played with the idea for some of their stories (like what happens when a "nice vampire" you invited in turns evil in a later episode), and I like it :)


As for the "powered by souls" idea... Dresden files also played with the concept : In the setting, Homes (personnal places where people and families live) are a powerful defense against the forces of the supernatural. A hotel room won't have a Threshold, and a student-appartment changing inhabitant every other year will be a wet paperbag, but the house you inherited from your granma and where you've been raising your kids? Unless an invitation has been extended, it's a fortress that will have its own defensive magic, stop a spell cold, protect a ghost from the devastating energy of sunrise, and block fallen angels and vampires in their tracks, or at least rip their powers from them so that they're as weak as any human.
Which is why the vampire will send human mercenaries with flamethrowers and Molotov cocktails to flush you out of your home if he really wants your hide. Nobody said that live is fair ^^

[hamishspence]

My recall is that it was originally a facet of their supreme OCD. It wasn't that they literally were physically unable to because of a magic barrier or something, simply that they were unable to bring themselves to force entry into a home where they weren't invited to.

TV Tropes suggests it debuted with the Dracula novel:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../MustBeInvited

with it not being a thing for Varney and Lord Ruthven. Not sure if it cropped up much in folklore.

[FlawedParadigm]

This comic is scientifically inaccurate. Memories are really reconstructions from what's emotionally important, not a film recording, and are fairly unreliable, especially after a long time. Durkon would remember the inauguration ceremony itself and the conversations with friends and family because these are important to him but the wards would be forgotten as background detail. He might remember that wards exist but he'd forget their number and location after all this time. If he had a job to place or renew such wards, he'd probably remember but that's unlikely with no memory of that shown so far.

Yeah, I'm the kind of person that notices explosions don't go 'boom' in space.

Clearly your definition of science doesn't account for eidetic memory. As someone who has one, I can tell you I remember details at a photo-quality level when it comes to any important days or events in my life, including what everyone present was wearing, how their hair was done, et cetera. I had a job at one point with 400+ employees and knew every last one of my co-workers by name, spanning at least six different cultures of names. Now it hasn't been established that either dwarves in general or Durkon in particular has such a memory, but then the converse hasn't been established either. As Durkon is unmarried, I imagine this would count as probably the most important day of his life. I could easily see him remember every detail.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Being unable to enter somewhere without being invited makes you polite and respectful, wich is at complete odds with the usual characterization of vampires as villains. If there is actual symbolism making them eeeevil for respecting my boundaries, I'm not seeing it.

It has to do with the rituals regarding hospitality, backed and enforced by the household spirits. It isn't a specifically vampire thing (unlike their vulnerability to healing herbs such as garlic), but applies to a lot of creepy crawlies.

If you recall your mythology, the most powerful deities are associated with hospitality (for the Hellenes, Zeus and Hestia, who was so busy with it she rarely bothered with the rest of the pantheon).

[Alcore]

I remember Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or maybe Angel, developing a bit on that rule. If a house had been left uninhabited, or only inhabited by beings without a soul, for a long time, then it was no longer warded against vampires. This a power souls have over the place they make their home, even if they do not realize it.

You could still ruin it all just by having a doormat with "Welcome" on it, or something like that.

Now, I don't remember Buffy's vampires having a problem with crossing running water or counting fallen grains (except for one who already had that OCD as a human).

Was a fan of both for the first three seasons of each.


A business does not count (sacred ground too, oddly), even if someone lives there full time. Adverted in the movie (pikes vampire friend floating out his window complaining of thirst. This was an 'apartment' above pikes workplace) and again in angel (he walks into apartment buildings uninvited but can't enter an apartment). So what constitutes a business and home is nuanced.


As soon as owner(s) die protection ends. No known case of what happens if other humans are still hiding inside. Only remembering Angel or the occasional demon, who did not count. Angel is an obvious answer as to why


Cars might count. Cordelia invited Angel into her car. Angel turned evil and she feared he could take her car. When it was (re)warded later it was off screen. Cars were usually a method of movement but battle sites.


Once invited can't be uninvited. Special wards need to be placed.


Can't think of any more but i know there was more.

[137beth]

And most likely of all :

• That restriction doesn't apply in OotSworld.

What kind of media do you guys watch? When was the last time this rule was enforced?

Well, since OOTS is sort-of-kind-of using D&D 3.5 rules,

They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so. They may freely enter public places, since these are by definition open to all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, since OOTS is sort-of-kind-of using D&D 3.5 rules,

A better way of describing it is "it can be assumed that OotS follows D&D rules, until the canon shows otherwise". Given that vampires so far have stuck to the established rules (and when the rules have been broken - such as when they awoke at once without a coffin - it was due to external items and forces), such assumption is solid.

Grey Wolf

[Doug Lampert]

Can I quote these?

Feel free to quote me.

[LasVegasLawyer]

So, I see two rooms that are potentially responsive to Greg's order. The first is the sanctuary, where you can see a door in the back. The second is the hall adjacent to the sanctuary in panel #7. By starting his memory *before* he walked into the hall, Durkon may have convinced Greg the door opened into a dangerous, warded sanctuary, rather than a relatively unguarded hallway.

It may not matter in the least (Greg may have chosen not to enter specifically because the wards would make it difficult to defeat any clerics inside the sanctuary), but, well, Chekhov's Door, and all that.

[Themrys]

The vampire begins its existence as "your worst day, personified" and then progressively turns itself into an evil version of all that you were, by absorbing your very soul into itself. What is interesting about that premise is that the vampire's evil is the soul's evil, and eventually the two entities will become one. More of a digestion than a fusion, yes, but what if there is very little to digest? With a sufficiently evil soul, all that would be missing in the final product would be their last remaining scruples. So it is possible the soul would embrace the change.

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happyness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?

[Lord Torath]

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happiness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?

It would be pleasant to think so.

They would still have a "least good" day, which is the same thing as a worst day. Also, the day they were attacked and killed by a vampire would probably be a pretty bad day in anyone's book.

[Kish]

Good thing it is not based on any sort of science then. Apparently this is how memories work in OOTS-World. Probably because it looks better in the webcomic that way.

More than that, work for dwarves, in a webcomic by an author who's explicitly mentioned disliking when nonhuman races are treated as human with purely cosmetic differences.

And I presume from the name of the first show that somehow the vampires weren't jokes.
But considering how that particular vampire weakness has no strong theme or symbolism going for it

The fact that you cannot see any symbolism in home being a sanctuary against a particular form of evil unless and until you invite that evil in does not mean such is not there.

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happyness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?

...given that anyone who never had a really bad day* is vastly less plausible than dwarves whose memories are movies, elves who don't reach half their adult growth until they've past thirties, or bloodsucking negative energy spirits, I'd say that's up to the author, who has the task of making the character in question anything close to believable.

*Subject to debate based on where one puts down the vague term "really," but I'll stick to my response for putting it down anywhere it makes sense to suggest anything unusual for the vampirization process.

[Keltest]

What about people who never had a really bad day? Who are all sunshine and happyness and don't have much evil in their souls? Would they simply resist the vampirization process for longer, or would they possibly be able to resist it?

They would probably be a really petty, small time vampire that runs around putting tape on the whiskers of kittens and playing pranks on old people in between consuming the blood of the innocent.

[pendell]

We interrupt this thread for an important health announcement.



The same applies to biology. At least, when it's argued vehemently as opposed to in fun.

Thank you for your attention.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[8BitNinja]

I believe that is intended to be a helmet of some sort, consistent with his wearing of chainmail.

It's a pretty small helmet. But I guess if it was magical it would provide ample defense

[hroþila]

It's a pretty small helmet. But I guess if it was magical it would provide ample defense

I always thought it represented something like this. Note that the High Priest of Thor is only seen wearing it when she's also wearing armour.

[Mr_Ratatosk]

Didn't what's-his-name break into the ship to steal the orb? Wouldn't that invalidate the idea that they need permission to enter anywhere in this world? I mean, I guess Greg could have given permission, but would that count? (I'm a bit green on the D&D rules, especially for vampires)

[JumboWheat01]

You know, I've silently cursed a few doors through my life, but I've never grabbed onto them and starting shouting insults at the door in question. It's just absolutely silly. And I love it.

I'll also admit it's kinda weird seeing so many dwarven men with hair in this page alone.

[Ruck]

Didn't what's-his-name break into the ship to steal the orb? Wouldn't that invalidate the idea that they need permission to enter anywhere in this world? I mean, I guess Greg could have given permission, but would that count? (I'm a bit green on the D&D rules, especially for vampires)

I'm not sure the rules apply to vehicles in the same way they do to homes. At least, that's the best explanation I can offer.

Onto another topic I was thinking of: It makes a lot of sense that Deep Fang Friar is obsessed with Roy, and I also suspect that may be what brings him down. If it's true that the vampire spirit "was created to fill the hole in your heart," it also makes sense that Durkon's loyalty to Roy would be twisted into Leechy Veinquaff's overriding hatred of him. We've already seen a couple of examples that Nega-Dwarf is willing to put his mission at risk to kill Roy, and while I'm sure he thinks it would be "fun" to fight in Thor's temple (after all, that would be another chance to desecrate something Durkon holds dear), he also seems more intent on fighting Roy than on simply keeping him at bay until the task is completed. I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to a fatal mistake on his part, especially with the Giant's previously mentioned stance that characters ought to meet their fates through their own actions in some way (which is also my stance on what makes good drama).

(No, this post was not an excuse to run through a bunch of nicknames for The Corpse Formerly Known as Durkon.)