MitD XII: This Space Intentionally Left Dark

[Darth Paul]

I doubt anyone thought the MitD could cast wish before he cast it.

This, in a nutshell, sums up the problem I have debating you on this topic, and why I've tried to stop.

Nobody has any proof that MitD cast a Wish spell. That includes using Wish as a spell-like ability, using a magic item that grants Wish, or Wish in any form whatsoever. You are assuming a fact not in evidence. And it's symptomatic of your style of debate. You tend to assume things that favor your candidate creature, but argue against any stronger ones. It's not an objective analysis.

It is true that Wish fits what happened. But so do about 3 other things, particularly a Greater Teleport, IF one assumes either that Rich fiddled with the rules (which is something you have no problem assuming when it supports your case) or if MitD was hit by V's Dimensional Anchor and was prevented from traveling along with O-Chul and V.

A Psionic Greater Teleport would fit the visual clues, since we saw his eyes glow yellow, and we've seen one psionicist whose eyes glow yellow when she uses her powers.

Even just assuming that Wish is the effect used doesn't make the creature a Ha-Naga. A Glabrezu has the same power and higher Strength, plus, limbs!

But back to my main point: You can safely say "I think it was a Wish that caused the Escape scene, therefore I weigh the evidence toward a Ha-Naga... I also have the following reasons." And then list those reasons. But you can't simply state "He cast Wish, therefore it has to be a Ha-Naga". (Yes, I drastically oversimplified for rhetorical effect, to show the impression you have made upon me over these last... many many pages.)

And I wish (no pun intended) (maybe a slight pun intended) that you would calm down and not take it that we hate you, when we critique your reasoning. It's not you. It's the fact that you can't scale down a Ha-Naga without reducing its Strength, no matter how hard you try. Or, if you handwave that, then why not handwave all the things that make you say "It can't be Teleport, it had to be Wish"?

[Mightymosy]

Not sure if serious but: Ha-Naga.

Please give link of description.
Google gives two pages, but none says yellow eyes.....

Also, one says Ha Naga lives in warm forest, which WOULD fit, BUT the hunters said it was NOT to be expected to find one in the forest.

I really like the idea of a snake like creature to explain the curtain scene, though. I had theorised long ago that that scene was an anatomical clue of some sort...

I don't think the "can cast every spell" fits very well, though. Why does MitD cast ONLY Wish, then, and only ONCE?
I would assume him to cast lesser spells, and more often, if he actually were a caster...

[3Power]

And I wish (no pun intended) (maybe a slight pun intended) that you would calm down and not take it that we hate you, when we critique your reasoning. It's not you. It's the fact that you can't scale down a Ha-Naga without reducing its Strength, no matter how hard you try. Or, if you handwave that, then why not handwave all the things that make you say "It can't be Teleport, it had to be Wish"?

Because the clues support the creature being shrunk down but not the teleport rules being broken.

EDIT: Also, there's no "No matter how hard I try" here. DMs can break any rule they need to in order to fit their purposes. It's their game. In one of the first games I DM'd I forgot zombies were supposed to only get a single action each turn. The campaign turned into finding out what necromancer was making these "Fast zombies" that mimicked the movement of the living.

Please give link of description.
Google gives two pages, but none says yellow eyes.....

Also, one says Ha Naga lives in warm forest, which WOULD fit, BUT the hunters said it was NOT to be expected to find one in the forest.

I really like the idea of a snake like creature to explain the curtain scene, though. I had theorised long ago that that scene was an anatomical clue of some sort...

I don't think the "can cast every spell" fits very well, though. Why does MitD cast ONLY Wish, then, and only ONCE?
I would assume him to cast lesser spells, and more often, if he actually were a caster...

1. Nothing says yellow eyes specifically, the generic naga entry says

The eyes of a naga are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic inner light.

Miniature's Handbook and Serpent Kingdoms both repeat this and specifically say this trait applies to all naga. The Spirit Naga, of which the Ha-naga is essentially an epic version of, has yellow eyes. The theory is that it started out as a Spirit Naga but the CR was too low so Rich looked for a stronger Naga.
2. I believe the hunters were in a jungle, not temperate warm land or underground.
3. He only casts it once because he's young and/or malnourished and...

I was able explore the idea that the monster itself isn’t really aware of all of its capabilities. In #374, it tries to tap Miko lightly, but fails.

[thelivingmonkey]

1. Nothing says yellow eyes specifically, the generic naga entry says Miniature's Handbook and Serpent Kingdoms both repeat this and specifically say this trait applies to all naga. The Spirit Naga, of which the Ha-naga is essentially an epic version of, has yellow eyes. The theory is that it started out as a Spirit Naga but the CR was too low so Rich looked for a stronger Naga.

Huh this whole time I was misled to believe the Ha-naga specifically had flavor about yellow eyes. I kinda thought that was, like, the backbone of your argument (it's the only real thing unique to the Ha-naga in this context).

Also on the double posting thing, it is pretty frequent lio, and it's pretty much unnecessary. You could just make a longer post there's no issue with that imo. And, despite forum rules and thread post limits, it's kinda disorienting to be reading and expect the next post to be from someone else but instead it's the same person. Not outright confusing but it is annoying.

Class levels on top of base monster is a hard sell given that word of god says MitD doesn't know how to use all his abilities. If he's gaining them as class levels I feel he should know.

If you feel the need to defend the Ha-naga by saying a level 20 orc is worse, shouldn't that tell you something about the viability of your candidate?

[Crusher]

Because the clues support the creature being shrunk down but not the teleport rules being broken.

EDIT: Also, there's no "No matter how hard I try" here. DMs can break any rule they need to in order to fit their purposes.

Do you see the problem in arguing it MUST be Wish because it somewhat better fits the clues, then immediately turn around and dismiss other objections on the grounds the DM can change monster charactertistics on a whim?

Surely you can see the conflict?

[zimmerwald1915]

Surely you can see the conflict?

The conflict is there. It can also be tolerated under the theory that neatly explaining the Escape Scene is more important than neatly explaining the Tower Scene. I don't care enough to actually make the argument for that, but I've no doubt someone could.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because the clues support the creature being shrunk down but not the teleport rules being broken.

The teleport rules are broken: by RAW you have to touch the people you teleport but in OotS you don’t have to, and instead works on what looks like a close but rather generous range. Meanwhile, there is literally 0 indication in canon that child versions of anything have adult strength.

Grey Wolf

[The Aboleth]

Meanwhile, there is literally 0 indication in canon that child versions of anything have adult strength.

Grey Wolf

If anything, we have the opposite because the Young Adult Black Dragon (YABD) was considerably weaker than his mother. Sure, Dragons actually have specific stats for various age categories, but if the argument is "Rich could ignore STR requirements for a child-like creature" then the YABD could be used as evidence against that.

Of course, the counter to that would be treating the YABD as a separate, specific creature from the Momma Black Dragon (because it has a separate MM entry), but then you have to explain why we shouldn't treat MitD in the same way (as in, why are you acknowledging age categories matter in one case but not the other?).

Ultimately, it boils down to what assumptions you are/are not willing to make to support your argument, and certain people in this thread are more willing to stretch assumptions to fit their argument while disregarding the assumptions of others.

[Crusher]

The conflict is there. It can also be tolerated under the theory that neatly explaining the Escape Scene is more important than neatly explaining the Tower Scene. I don't care enough to actually make the argument for that, but I've no doubt someone could.

Eh. It wouldn’t be a very strong argument, because the other person could say they prioritize the scenes differently, leaving you at a stalemate.

On another topic, I’ve been thinking about Elite arrays of stats. My initial thinking was that if it was a relatively easy way to improve a monster in a non-templated, non-leveled fashion, then maybe reconsider raising the STR requirement.

So I looked into it, and it was interesting. Per RAW, the Elite array (and also the other one that starts with 13 whose name I can’t remember) aren’t monster improvement methods, they are a by product of that process.

If you improve a monster (by giving it class levels, special abilities, templates, etc), it is considered elite enough to also be given an improved array if you want to. You don’t have to, but it has some guidelines on this. It gives rules around which arrays to give out when, even.

For example, it says the Elite array is appropriate to give to monsters given PC class levels, but monsters given NPC class levels should be given the other improved array. A monster given a template can be given any of the three (elite, standard, or the other one) depending on what makes the most sense.

So, here’s the thing: if we don’t think MitD has been “improved” (in the game-sense) vs a standard member of its race, then it really shouldn’t be given an improved array of stats. Now, obviously Rich can do whatever he wants. If its a freakishly strong whatever, with +10 STR over racial normal, then thats what it is. But at that point I think we’ve drifted far from something people can guess.

TL;DR - I don't think we should allow either improved array of stats. There aren’t guidelines on handing them out to improve monsters, they’re things you should also give to monsters you *already* improving.

[zimmerwald1915]

Eh. It wouldn’t be a very strong argument, because the other person could say they prioritize the scenes differently, leaving you at a stalemate.

The relative strength and weakness of arguments for prioritizing various scenes would depend on the reasons marshalled for each argument, surely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

TL;DR - I don't think we should allow either improved array of stats. There aren’t guidelines on handing them out to improve monsters, they’re things you should also give to monsters you *already* improving.

Usual disclaimer: it is not a matter of “allowing” anything, but of how that would change the classification of suggestions in the OP. It has been my longstanding practice to consider creatures in their base state, especially when contemplating augmentations that apply to every proposal, because it simplifies the classification by not having to consider “what if it also had a template/class levels/etc”.

I especially don’t see a reason to change that now, when the only reason it is being proposed is to artificially force a sub par suggestion into the FBS because 3powers has unilaterally decided that the proposal list is a “discard pile” or whatever other lie he’s telling these days.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

The relative strength and weakness of arguments for prioritizing various scenes would depend on the reasons marshalled for each argument, surely.

Hypothetically, lets say 80-90% of the folks in the discussion felt one set of arguments and interpretations were stronger while the rest disagreed, and the gap had not been bridged after ~15 pages of debate. Then what?

[zimmerwald1915]

Hypothetically, lets say 80-90% of the folks in the discussion felt one set of arguments and interpretations were stronger while the rest disagreed, and the gap had not been bridged after ~15 pages of debate. Then what?

Then the arguments have been made, and there's a judgment call about whether a consensus has been reached, same as any other topic.

[Crusher]

Then the arguments have been made, and there's a judgment call about whether a consensus has been reached, same as any other topic.

Judgment call made by who?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then the arguments have been made, and there's a judgment call about whether a consensus has been reached, same as any other topic.

Yep. Of all the fuzzy edges that come with the curator responsibility, determining consensus without having to set up votes every other day has to be the most perilous. Thankfully, in my experience consensus has tended to be either quite clear, or ultimately something an FAQ entry was able to reflect.

Judgment call made by who?

The curator, I’d say. For the purposes of the threads that run on curator rules. And then it goes Meta because whatever they judge is itself subject to consensus. As it has been when it bungled a section in the OP.

Grey Wolf

[Mightymosy]

Because the clues support the creature being shrunk down but not the teleport rules being broken.

EDIT: Also, there's no "No matter how hard I try" here. DMs can break any rule they need to in order to fit their purposes. It's their game. In one of the first games I DM'd I forgot zombies were supposed to only get a single action each turn. The campaign turned into finding out what necromancer was making these "Fast zombies" that mimicked the movement of the living.


1. Nothing says yellow eyes specifically, the generic naga entry says Miniature's Handbook and Serpent Kingdoms both repeat this and specifically say this trait applies to all naga. The Spirit Naga, of which the Ha-naga is essentially an epic version of, has yellow eyes. The theory is that it started out as a Spirit Naga but the CR was too low so Rich looked for a stronger Naga.
2. I believe the hunters were in a jungle, not temperate warm land or underground.
3. He only casts it once because he's young and/or malnourished and...

Thanks for the link. But it points to a Naga, not Ha-Naga....
For the Ha-Naga i found this link:
https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters...aga,_Faerunian

It says warm forest.

But no matter if you prefer warm hills or forest or jungle, I would find the line of the hunters a little or a little more cheating, if it turns out to be a Ha Naga...

If it's a clue, then the environment should obviosuly not fit at all, otherwise it's an unfair clue, if you ask me.

Anyway, about the spellcasting:
USUALLY spells are spoken aloud ("Disintegrate" "Gust of Wind").
Additionally, the Ha Naga seems to be able to cast A LOT of spells. It is obviosuly subjective, but I would find it really really awful writing, if MitD turned out to be such an exceptional spellcaster, yet only cast one spell - without verbally announcing it - and cast such a high level spell on his first try.....

My guess is that either it's a D&D monster with just a couple spell like abilities, one among them being wish, or, more likely in my opinion, a non-D&D monster that can either grant wishes or teleport people or simply rewrite reality with his mind, something "uber" like that.

My gut says some mythological monster, yet I couldn't think of a good candidate yet. Or something from books- classical books, thus the "Have I been drawn?" comment...

Anyway, what I like about your suggestion is how its anatomy fits. I like how a flying snake doesn't leave traces or leaves strange traces, can reach the top doors easily, and how it has it harder to pull than to push.
Plus, the glowing eyes.
Also, being able to change its scales might be a cool visual for its reveal (being invisible due to blending in with its surroundings). Also, explain the comment in the circus (hard to be looked at by so many people? because it tries to color its scales to the expectations of everyone who watches, maybe? harder the more people watch).

Also, a big frightening evil snake monster might be something Xykon and RC expect to be a useful addition to an evil team.

Right now, it doesn't really convince me more than the ANB or the Protean - mostly because of the spellcasting, to be honest.



By the way, Protean:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/hagunemnon.htm
It says:
"In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes)"

This sentence is why I personally would feel somewhat cheated if it was the Protean (though I admit it is right now still one of the better options).

We only have the eyes and the size as direct visual clues. The size, we have several clues that hint we should expect the actual species to be bigger, usually.
Which means only the eyes remain as direct visual clue. And now, that clue would be untrue as well?
Would be kinda hard for me to swallow, with the comic being "a visual medium", as Rich mentioned in a different context.

Basically, we get two visual clues, and both kinda don't fit? Meh, personally wouldn't like it, but maybe that's just me.
But my point here is not that I want to complain about the Protean as a choice, I want to ask a question: Is there an alternate description of the Protean, maybe in some old D&D handbook, one that Rich could have used, and one that does NOT contain that line of constantly changing it's shape?
If so, that would be a really convincing point, to me. I mean, the picture given here (http://www.sylvos.com/gaming/DnD/SRD...agunemnon.jpg) even has yellow eyes!

[lio45]

The conflict is there. It can also be tolerated under the theory that neatly explaining the Escape Scene is more important than neatly explaining the Tower Scene. I don't care enough to actually make the argument for that, but I've no doubt someone could.

It's easy enough to make: Tower Scene is just a joke, Escape Scene is a very serious lynchpin moment.

Personally, my "bare minimum" takes from each are still:
Tower Scene: MitD is physically insanely powerful
Escape Scene: MitD became actual friends with O-Chul, is not Evil, and had the means to cause O-Chul's escape.

(Together, they happen to weed out both Glabrezu and Ha-Naga, even though they weren't designed backwards for that purpose at all.)

[Peelee]

We only have the eyes and the size as direct visual clues. The size, we have several clues that hint we should expect the actual species to be bigger, usually.
Which means only the eyes remain as direct visual clue. And now, that clue would be untrue as well?

The obvious counter to this is that of the eyes fluctuated, it would be an inarguably dead giveaway what the MitD is. The two theories that address it directly are that, assuming a Protean, he uses a Move action constantly to hold the eyes (the much more popular belief, which I do not share) or that the shifting form happens to constant shift in such a way as to have two eyes in the front while on camera, which would be visibly seen after the reveal (the significantly less popular option - in fact, I believe I'm the only one to ever back it).

[Kish]

Class levels on top of base monster is a hard sell given that word of god says MitD doesn't know how to use all his abilities. If he's gaining them as class levels I feel he should know.

I agree with this but don't see why you're not applying it to spellcasting as part of "base monster." Celia knows that she casts spells (and referred to herself as a sorcerer even though, if Haley is to be believed, Celia has no class levels in sorcerer and gets her spellcasting entirely from casting as a sorcerer of a level equal to her hit dice). The ancient silver dragon in No Cure for the Paladin Blues referred to themself as a sorcerer, while demonstrating their natural dragon spellcasting. If the explanation for the Escape was a ha-naga casting a spell, the creature in the darkness would know he's a sorcerer.

[Mightymosy]

The obvious counter to this is that of the eyes fluctuated, it would be an inarguably dead giveaway what the MitD is. [...]

I don't know man, that logic reads as:
"If you can't succeed, it's ok to cheat".

I agree that it is theoretically possible to have MitD just HAPPEN to have the constant two eyes whenever the camera is on him, and MAYBE that wouldn't be cheating TECHNICALLY, but it would be cheating ETHICALLY, in my opinion.
But to each their own. My point is just to ask whether there were other descriptions available that would not even pose that limitation.

[Son of A Lich!]

I'd argue that the eyes are a way for us, the audience, to know that the MitD is the same character in each panel.

It would also make sense for a new artist and webcomic author to see a protean and decide that it was a cool idea to add, only to be overwhelmed with the idea of drawing a new creature in each panel rather then copying and pasting the old character from the previous panel.

SO to cover that element, just put it in the shadows and keep the eyes so it is Expressive and we can see things like panic and disappointment and so forth, without having to redraw the whole character anew each frame.

Faces are important for emotinetics, there is a tier list of elements to focus on and Eyes are almost always on the top, followed by eyebrows and at a lower end things like head tilt and ears (For things like dogs, where the ears are used to express).

I agree that ever shifting number of eyes would be a dead give away, but more importantly, it would be confusing to try to express what is going on.

[Mightymosy]

I'd argue that the eyes are a way for us, the audience, to know that the MitD is the same character in each panel.

It would also make sense for a new artist and webcomic author to see a protean and decide that it was a cool idea to add, only to be overwhelmed with the idea of drawing a new creature in each panel rather then copying and pasting the old character from the previous panel.

SO to cover that element, just put it in the shadows and keep the eyes so it is Expressive and we can see things like panic and disappointment and so forth, without having to redraw the whole character anew each frame.

Faces are important for emotinetics, there is a tier list of elements to focus on and Eyes are almost always on the top, followed by eyebrows and at a lower end things like head tilt and ears (For things like dogs, where the ears are used to express).

I agree that ever shifting number of eyes would be a dead give away, but more importantly, it would be confusing to try to express what is going on.

At a certain point Rich sat down and thought what MitD would be.
At that point in time, he HAD THE CHOICE just to NOT use the Protean, if he felt drawing ever-changing eyes would be a giveaway.
So, no need to write himself in a corner by choosing a monster that would "force" him to paint different eyes, really.

[Keltest]

I agree with this but don't see why you're not applying it to spellcasting as part of "base monster." Celia knows that she casts spells (and referred to herself as a sorcerer even though, if Haley is to be believed, Celia has no class levels in sorcerer and gets her spellcasting entirely from casting as a sorcerer of a level equal to her hit dice). The ancient silver dragon in No Cure for the Paladin Blues referred to themself as a sorcerer, while demonstrating their natural dragon spellcasting. If the explanation for the Escape was a ha-naga casting a spell, the creature in the darkness would know he's a sorcerer.

The SRD draws a distinction between monsters which use spell like abilities innately, getting the spell effect as a sorcerer but otherwise requiring no components of any sort, and monsters who actually cast spells as a wizard or sorcerer would do, using various components. Which is to say, D&D terminology is aggravatingly imprecise.

Also, is this silver dragon in one of the bonus scenes? I assume youre talking about Xykon's soon-to-be zombie mount, but I don't remember it ever actually talking or fighting.

[hamishspence]

Also, is this silver dragon in one of the bonus scenes? I assume youre talking about Xykon's soon-to-be zombie mount, but I don't remember it ever actually talking or fighting.

Bonus strips in Paladin Blues, yes.

[Peelee]

I agree that it is theoretically possible to have MitD just HAPPEN to have the constant two eyes whenever the camera is on him, and MAYBE that wouldn't be cheating TECHNICALLY, but it would be cheating ETHICALLY, in my opinion.

I'd hardly call it cheating in any sense; it's a self-aware parody comic where the rules of drama actively determine how the world works.

But like you said, to each their own.

At a certain point Rich sat down and thought what MitD would be.
At that point in time, he HAD THE CHOICE just to NOT use the Protean, if he felt drawing ever-changing eyes would be a giveaway.
So, no need to write himself in a corner by choosing a monster that would "force" him to paint different eyes, really.

He also would have the choice to figure "eh they can shift in the same position every time. That sounds funny. Funny comic, funny reveal, badaboom!"

[Throknor]

I agree with this but don't see why you're not applying it to spellcasting as part of "base monster." Celia knows that she casts spells (and referred to herself as a sorcerer even though, if Haley is to be believed, Celia has no class levels in sorcerer and gets her spellcasting entirely from casting as a sorcerer of a level equal to her hit dice). The ancient silver dragon in No Cure for the Paladin Blues referred to themself as a sorcerer, while demonstrating their natural dragon spellcasting. If the explanation for the Escape was a ha-naga casting a spell, the creature in the darkness would know he's a sorcerer.

Counter-point: Start of Darkness specifically shows Xykon had no idea he could cast spells until he was crying for his dog to come back and he spontaneously cast 'Create Undead'* to turn it into something. The Professor then showed up to give him context and call him a sorcerer. Similarly, the MITD could realize he can periodically get something to happen just by wanting it without knowing how he does it. There are clues - he tries again by yelling at a goblin and comments about trying to get something just by asking for it.

Personally, this is why I favor creatures that can grant/use a single wish periodically but that's not something easily argued objectively.

*Not a 3.5 player, don't know the specific spell. But I do know Xykon did not name the spell he used so MITD using ESCAPE instead of a spell name fine by me.

[Vulkos]

Can someone remember me what the arguments AGAINST MitD actively keeping his shape are?
I mean, apart from the meta-arguments (which I value very high, anyway), just the scenes shown in the strips that seem to contradict said theory.

The evershifting shape is, to me, actually the ultimate nuh-nuh argument against what seems (imho) to be the only passable guess formulated until now.

[Mightymosy]

Counter-point: Start of Darkness specifically shows Xykon had no idea he could cast spells until he was crying for his dog to come back and he spontaneously cast 'Create Undead'* to turn it into something. The Professor then showed up to give him context and call him a sorcerer. Similarly, the MITD could realize he can periodically get something to happen just by wanting it without knowing how he does it. There are clues - he tries again by yelling at a goblin and comments about trying to get something just by asking for it.

Personally, this is why I favor creatures that can grant/use a single wish periodically but that's not something easily argued objectively.

*Not a 3.5 player, don't know the specific spell. But I do know Xykon did not name the spell he used so MITD using ESCAPE instead of a spell name fine by me.

I'd hardly call it cheating in any sense; it's a self-aware parody comic where the rules of drama actively determine how the world works.

But like you said, to each their own.

He also would have the choice to figure "eh they can shift in the same position every time. That sounds funny. Funny comic, funny reveal, badaboom!"

Yeah, that's why I said it's just my opinion and not proof.

Imagine when Rich said down and looked through hundreds of monster entries, with, at that time, the only limitations being:
- has to fit under umbrella
- has two eyes

And then he found the Protean, which didn't fit either, he thought "Ha, I'll use that one! I'll show them!"

It's possible. But my guess is that Rich would then have found a way to give a clue about the eyes, just like with the size.


Do you want to bet Protean or no-Protean, just for fun? Which Odds would you accept?

[Quebbster]

Yeah, that's why I said it's just my opinion and not proof.

Imagine when Rich said down and looked through hundreds of monster entries, with, at that time, the only limitations being:
- has to fit under umbrella
- has two eyes

And then he found the Protean, which didn't fit either, he thought "Ha, I'll use that one! I'll show them!"

It's possible. But my guess is that Rich would then have found a way to give a clue about the eyes, just like with the size.


Do you want to bet Protean or no-Protean, just for fun? Which Odds would you accept?

The umbrella wasn't introduced until later. The MitD's identity was set around strip 100,the umbrella didn't show up until 50 strips or so later. The only indication of size before strip 100 is that the eyes are fairly close to the ground.

[Qwertystop]

or that the shifting form happens to constant shift in such a way as to have two eyes in the front while on camera, which would be visibly seen after the reveal (the significantly less popular option - in fact, I believe I'm the only one to ever back it).

I'm not sure whether I think that would be more or less fair than "it's always using an action to keep it's head", but it would be an amazing sight gag.