Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters

[Rhyltran]

The problem is that the Fighter struggles if his enemies are played with any sort of intelligence (edit: assuming they're reasonably powerful), and he can be replaced easily by many other classes, or a single spell.

"Any sort" of intelligence is debatable. A Planetar that just charges the fighter is a dumb brute and is being played like a moron. However, a planetar that utilizes his SA's to weaken the fighter, ambush him, and has previously buffed himself for battle but then moves in to finish him with his +3 great sword is fighting by the book. The fact that he used his abilities to ambush the fighter, buff himself up, and give himself an advantage could be argued as smart and against what a Planetar might typically face in combat on any given day would be enough to win. It's certainly sound enough.

Against a character that's optimized? Sure, that strategy would get him killed. Could a planetar be played even more intelligently? Sure. However, the above played Planetar isn't being played by a moron. Not every DM is a chess master.

Also I don't doubt nor will argue that the Fighter can be replaced by most classes. Hell, there's many classes (even ones better than the fighter) that can be replaced by other classes. Including classes people acknowledge as useful. Now being replaced by a single spell? This is usually touted and in most cases (especially beyond core) is usually an exaggeration.

[Ivanhoe]

Because no one has refuted them.



That wouldn't happen if you'd listen to people when they point out you're wrong.



Care to quote some rules to prove your claim?

(and the circles continue...)

[ColorBlindNinja]

"Any sort" of intelligence is debatable. A Planetar that just charges the fighter is a dumb brute and is being played like a moron. However, a planetar that utilizes his SA's to weaken the fighter, ambush him, and has previously buffed himself for battle but then moves in to finish him with his +3 great sword is fighting by the book. The fact that he used his abilities to ambush the fighter, buff himself up, and give himself an advantage could be argued as smart and against what a Planetar might typically face in combat on any given day would be enough to win. It's certainly sound enough.

Casting spells is usually enough, if they're good spells.

Against a character that's optimized? Sure, that strategy would get him killed. Could a planetar be played even more intelligently? Sure. However, the above played Planetar isn't being played by a moron. Not every DM is a chess master.

If you had to fight someone and you could do so with minimal risk to yourself, would you?

Also I don't doubt nor will argue that the Fighter can be replaced by most classes. Hell, there's many classes (even ones better than the fighter) that can be replaced by other classes. Including classes people acknowledge as useful. Now being replaced by a single spell? This is usually touted and in most cases (especially beyond core) is usually an exaggeration.

Animate Dead, Dominate Monster, Simularum, Planar Binding, the list goes on.

Edit:

(and the circles continue...)

Because you won't back up your assertions.

[Tainted_Scholar]

(and the circles continue...)

I'm going to interpret this as, you have no way of winning this argument and have decided to complain about circles instead.

[Rhyltran]

Casting spells is usually enough, if they're good spells.

That's true enough.

If you had to fight someone and you could do so with minimal risk to yourself, would you?

That depends. In real life? Sure. I have a finite life span so I would take any threat seriously even if it didn't appear serious. If I was an immortal, ageless being that zaps back to it's current plane upon death and I'm outside that said plane? Depends how the threat looked and would also depend how bored I am. If I die sure I might be gone a century but the next century might be more amusing.

Animate Dead, Dominate Monster, Simularum, Planar Binding, the list goes on.

Edit:

Because you won't back up your assertions.

I have backed up my assertions. It's not my fault that your argument isn't strong enough to persuade me. In the end that's what all debates boil down to, isn't it? Your argument is too weak to persuade me and my argument is too weak to persuade you. As for the above?

All of those are even stronger if you have a fighter in the party. It doesn't make the fighter weaker. Most of those listed still won't put out more damage than a properly geared fighter. Let's look at something for a moment. Let's say you're right the Fighter can't solo any Pitfiend (even though the question was A pitfiend.)

Would you rather the Pitfiend or the Fighter? I'd rather Anthro's fighter. Along side a group it would be more useful. He's capable of far higher damage output, has better saves, and as a team we can definitely utilize his hide/initiative. He's better than the monster in team play because he can be utilized to allow us to gib things.

Is he the best class for it? Nah, I'd prefer an optimized scout/Ranger/Rogue in his place if someone truly wanted the "Mundane Archer."

[ryu]

That's true enough.




That depends. In real life? Sure. I have a finite life span so I would take any threat seriously even if it didn't appear serious. If I was an immortal, ageless being that zaps back to it's current plane upon death and I'm outside that said plane? Depends how the threat looked and would also depend how bored I am. If I die sure I might be gone a century but the next century might be more amusing.





I have backed up my assertions. It's not my fault that your argument isn't strong enough to persuade me. In the end that's what all debates boil down to, isn't it? Your argument is too weak to persuade me and my argument is too weak to persuade you. As for the above?

All of those are even stronger if you have a fighter in the party. It doesn't make the fighter weaker. Most of those listed still won't put out more damage than a properly geared fighter. Let's look at something for a moment. Let's say you're right the Fighter can't solo any Pitfiend (even though the question was A pitfiend.)

Would you rather the Pitfiend or the Fighter? I'd rather Anthro's fighter. Along side a group it would be more useful. He's capable of far higher damage output, has better saves, and as a team we can definitely utilize his hide/initiative. He's better than the monster in team play because he can be utilized to allow us to gib things.

Is he the best class for it? Nah, I'd prefer an optimized scout/Ranger/Rogue in his place if someone truly wanted the "Mundane Archer."

That last line of theirs wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at the other guy.

[Rhyltran]

That last line of theirs wasn't aimed at you. It was aimed at the other guy.

Thanks. Didn't notice that. I was told several times in the past to back up my assertions when I admittedly don't care to and am just trying to talk about perspectives. As I'm not invested enough to actually build a fighter to try the challenge.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's true enough.

OK

That depends. In real life? Sure. I have a finite life span so I would take any threat seriously even if it didn't appear serious. If I was an immortal, ageless being that zaps back to it's current plane upon death and I'm outside that said plane? Depends how the threat looked and would also depend how bored I am. If I die sure I might be gone a century but the next century might be more amusing.[/QUOTE]

There are more serious things that can happen to the Planetar than dying (Imprisonment for example).

I have backed up my assertions. It's not my fault that your argument isn't strong enough to persuade me. In the end that's what all debates boil down to, isn't it? Your argument is too weak to persuade me and my argument is too weak to persuade you. As for the above?

That part was a response to Ivanhoe, not you.

All of those are even stronger if you have a fighter in the party. It doesn't make the fighter weaker. Most of those listed still won't put out more damage than a properly geared fighter. Let's look at something for a moment. Let's say you're right the Fighter can't solo any Pitfiend (even though the question was A pitfiend.)

That doesn't change the fact that the Fighter is sub optimal.

Would you rather the Pitfiend or the Fighter? I'd rather Anthro's fighter. Along side a group it would be more useful. He's capable of far higher damage output, has better saves, and as a team we can definitely utilize his hide/initiative. He's better than the monster in team play because he can be utilized to allow us to gib things.

This isn't a case of "want", we're trying to determine who would triumph.

Is he the best class for it? Nah, I'd prefer an optimized scout/Ranger/Rogue in his place if someone truly wanted the "Mundane Archer."

OK.

[Ivanhoe]

I'm going to interpret this as, you have no way of winning this argument and have decided to complain about circles instead.

OK, you are fairly new to the thread.
What would convince you that, say, Anthrowhales' sniper - or any core fighter - can defeat a pit fiend?
What would this fighter need to do?
How are your strategies for a pit fiend instead of the default strategies in the MM? (please -round by round).

I'll then try again to explain to you why the pit fiend likely loses.

[Anthrowhale]

Ryu responded better than I could have:

Could you or Ryu please commit to a moment when combat starts? Without that, you can't even test for whether or not the surprise condition applies. (And of course, with it... the rules will show that can't get off the Control Winds.

If the Planetar stands at the edge of Control Winds, the Fighter needs to be over 1,500 feet away to avoid damage.

This is just plain false. The rules for Holy Smite range are here---it really is just 270' with a 17th level caster, as per the Planetar. If you give some details about how you calculate 1500' maybe we can debug further.

Divination and Contract Other Planes. Edit: Let me clarify; those spells will allow the Planetar to find the Fighter to establish the connection.

Contact other Plane seems useful if you want to form a connection with various deities. I don't think it can be used to establish a connection with some otherwise-unknown fighter. Best case is that you'll be able to use 17 questions to pick out some fighter, but since fighters are common it's extraordinarily unlikely you'll pick out the Halfling.

Divination seems even worse---it only works a week in advance which is far to short for a year-long project. Furthermore it only gives advice about a course of action.

Overall, this seems like a fail.

Unless the Fighter hangs out at his house all day, the Planetar can find it with Divination/Contact Other Planes and study it while invisible.

This might eventually work. It obviously runs a risk of getting caught throughout the period of study and it obviously won't work if the Fighter doesn't have a house.

If the Fighter's sleeping, then a Coup De Grace should suffice.

And if the Fighter's not?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Could you or Ryu please commit to a moment when combat starts? Without that, you can't even test for whether or not the surprise condition applies. (And of course, with it... the rules will show that can't get off the Control Winds.

The surprise round begins when the Planetar steps out of the Gate, and then it casts Miracle for Control Winds; roll for initiative.

This is just plain false. The rules for Holy Smite range are here---it really is just 270' with a 17th level caster, as per the Planetar. If you give some details about how you calculate 1500' maybe we can debug further.

If Plantar stands on the edge of Control Wind's AoE, in order to exit Control Wind's range, and Holy Smite's range, you have to move 1,500'. If the arena isn't that big, you can't get away.

Contact other Plane seems useful if you want to form a connection with various deities. I don't think it can be used to establish a connection with some otherwise-unknown fighter. Best case is that you'll be able to use 17 questions to pick out some fighter, but since fighters are common it's extraordinarily unlikely you'll pick out the Halfling.

- You're the one who said that the Planetar is hunting down the Fighter, so I assume that it knows about him.

- The Planetar is using Contact Other Planes to locate the Fighter so he can use Discern Location. The Planetar merely needs to have heard about the Fighter to Scry on him.

Divination seems even worse---it only works a week in advance which is far to short for a year-long project. Furthermore it only gives advice about a course of action.

So ask for advice how to find the Fighter.

Overall, this seems like a fail.

It isn't.

This might eventually work. It obviously runs a risk of getting caught throughout the period of study and it obviously won't work if the Fighter doesn't have a house.

- I can't say I'm that concerned about that. What will the Fighter do? The Planetar will just leave.

- The Fighter has to sleep somewhere.

And if the Fighter's not?

Then use the Control Winds route.

[Kallimakus]

Again, if you don't have cover from every direction, then you can't do that. Unless you are claiming that minions are not allowed to notice their allies dying and move?

That's the problem, hiding doesn't work that way. You don't have cover against all directions at all time, if you are doing something like this you 1) reveal your presence (not location, presence) and then 2) the enemies move in a way that denies you of your claimed cover from all of them, even the ones you don't know are there but ability to shoot them at all times.

Why would a fighter that can attack from range have enemies in more than one direction? So that should suffice. Shoot, relocate, shoot. In order to make a perception check (as move action) they only have one move left, so in this case I'd argue that the fighter can kite.Equally, shooting at different areas of the mummy horde might obfuscate the direction of attack at least to start with. Eventually the field wioll be corpsy enough to hide from all directions (except up I guess, so that is a problem.)

1) As previously explicated, the correct EL increase for a level 20 fighter facing infinity mummies + 1 Pit Fiend, even if they did count towards EL is still 20. Because the DMG specifically says that enemies that low Don't Count.

2) The idea that some random Piazo module should contradict the rules that don't have any such restriction is beyond weird. The idea that it only counts if it's not at will and during combat is crazy bonkers. One explicit comparison used in the book is Animate Dead to Fireball. Animate Dead is not used during combat and doesn't really cost resources for PCs that day at all.

3) Yes, you have declared it is cheating for the Pit Fiend to use it's abilities, that's the defense you are going to stick with. That is a terrible defense. Like I said, that's not "countering" the argument. That's basically just "whatever super flimsy terrible justification I can come up with to save the fighter, no matter how little sense it makes."

I'm not saying it's cheating at all. You are correct (and I said in one of my posts) that the undead are a trivial challenge. And likewise said that I misrecalled the fact from PF, where the rules are a bit different. And as I said, I don't know exactly how/when the EL is calculated in 3.5.

1) As I explained over and over but no one cares about because they keep believeing every dumb lie Anthro says. The Pit Fiend is not "every bit as vulnerable" he is completely immune to literally any amount of mummies.

2) No, he can't control them, but that's the point. Uncontrolled mummies still serve his purposes. And he has that ability, no matter how much people want to take it away because they know 100% beyond question the fighter loses if they don't.

This is correct. But without control over the undead, he is stuck

1) He has Persistent Image at will. So he has hundreds of images up whereever he is and several places he isn't.

2) It's an SLA so you literally get no possible chance to identify it being cast. Nor can you spellcraft it until after you have made the save.

3) You don't get a save unless you interact with it, something the Halfling won't be doing.

4) You have to know that waiting is useful, you don't, and if you do, he can literally fireball you infinitely while you wait, and refresh it with a single standard action from behind it.

5) Seeing a Persistent Image or an army of minions tells you absolutely nothing. It doesn't even tell you there is another enemy besides the mummies if you saw both, not that you can realize the image at all. Because any mummy could have class levels and have cast the image themselves.

6) Anthro's fighter literally doesn't even have spellcraft (last time I checked the build) because he had 3 skills, and those are cross class hide, MS, and Spot.

7) The Pit Fiend probably has Persistent Images of: 1) Fake cover that he can see through but you can't, 2) Fake walls that he can see through but you can't, making up pretty much any structure he wants, 3) Literally a texture map of the sky for a mile around, possibly texture map of the ground from above, giving him a gap to sit in, he can again, see through, but you can't. Several fake necromancers in the mummy horde or some other likely target to trick enemies into attacking.

Depending on the enviroment, might have more, less, or some other things.

Good points there.
Again, I come from PF, so the rules might be different in 3.5, but you totally can spellcraft SLA's. And Still Silent spells for that matter. Or if the caster is invisible, and Still and Silent. Granted, since the fighter has no spellcraft, he can't do squat. Equally, studying carefully (as a move action, say to perceive what X is) counts as interacting with the illusion (spotting small errors or somesuch).
Persistent image has limited size per illusion and its duration on the low end. So Persistent images are great if the fighter has to come to the Pit Fiend. If not, they are less useful (though potentially still great). And attacking through illusory walls is a great way to demonstrate their illusionness. (imo)

I have never said the monster should expect the fighter (well perhaps the plantar with divinations could) I have mostly not stated any tactics at all prior to this post, aside from stating really general stuff like "if trapped in a box with someone, take away or turn off their holy weapon so they can't hurt you" or "if you see a guy flying through the air on a low CR mount, just kill his mount" or "in general, fireball people from behind illusory total concealment" or "have mummies and a web of illusions" or "if you see someone drink a potion and fly up to meet you, or active winged boots and fly up to meet you, dispel them and laugh as they fall, then return to fireballing them" mostly because I was laboring under the mistaken impression that anyone at all might ever care to see how their claims work in actual games.

DMs have to know the players, and have to not metagame with monsters, it' just sort of mandatory, and any DM with much practice should be able to. Nothing I have suggested it tailored to any specific build or tactic proposed by the fighters, and metagaming is not an appropriate measure of anything, which is why I don't do it.

These are all fair points again. The fighters require a good full attack off in order to defeat the monster. And if the engagement happens on their terms, they'll likely have it. If it happens on the monster's turn, not so much. I seem to think that Fireballs are less than effective in this case though. And I think there was a trick vs the dispel, something about Magic Mouths and rod of absorption, but those are both limited, while at-will dispel is not.

Probably because someone engages it's mummy horde that is terrorizing the countryside, and it responds to that. Or you know, it gets surprise on any of the (literally every single party that has ever existed) that doesn't have invisibility at will and a jacked as **** hide skill and rely on claiming cover from all directions simultaneously.

This is a plausible scenario, and definitely likely to go the Pit Fiend's way.

So here's the thing: if you just go invisible 1) you are waiting 3 minutes before it runs out, or you say the word again.

2) you are just stalling, while the mummy horde continues to terrorize, which sort of defeats the purpose.

3) regrading the rest, you are a fighter, you have no way to guarantee tall grass, or a moderately sized rock, or that you won't need to go inside, or across a flat plane (or as above, that any given bit of cover you use isn't actually fake) or that you might not need to you know, go up in the air ever for any reason at which time you lose cover.

4) A lot harder to have cover against pit fiends flying over the area looking down, and since you don't know he's there, and he sees you the instant, mid movement that you no longer have cover relative to him, you basically get spotted.

These are fair points, although as I mentioned somewhere, I think the only threat the undead horde poses is that the ranged fighter might run out of ammo.

Creatures with both minions with True Seeing and at will illusions, as well as spellcraft checks to automatically know everything about the spell True Seeing on a 1 probably have the ability to make plans based on True Seeing.

In fact, all these plans are based around the limitations of True Seeing and See Invisibility so that no matter what any enemy has, Fighter, Wizard, Angel, whatever, that the Pit Fiend is likely to have a decent chance at surprise.

Fair points, and moving to the idea that the encounter occurs in a world.

No, they said in circumstances assumed, but then assumed a bunch of rules that don't exist, and then started assuming abilities their characters don't have, like Summon Cover IX, and then moved on to that to declaring successive Pit Fiend tactics totally cheating, and they still never got past the barrier of "The Pit Fiend has illusory defenses, and you don't have unlimited True Seeing so you don't use it before you know there is a reason to."

I did not get quite this from the posts.

Plenty were suggested, the usually go like this:

Fighter Proponent: I should always get surprise because I have 100% cover everywhere and all enemies are required to sit on the ground in plane sight waiting for me, and then we roll initiative!

Monsters: Actually the monsters should be reasonable creatures with existing defenses and plans and be taking actions while you are creeping around at 10' per round even though you don't know any enemies exist, and you are 5 miles away.

Fighter Proponent: Every part of that is cheating, monsters taking actions, cheating, monsters using abilities, cheating, monsters having goals and being reasonable, cheating.

Don't got much to say about this.

[Ivanhoe]

Anthrowhale, you must realize that the fighter critics side had difficulty to accept your past rules quotes, so I guess they will also have problems with these. They maintain that this is not " backing up your opinion".
Also, they keep on maintaining that the planetar should be using spells TO tactics to defeat fighters, even though the RAW says that they are likely to do melee instead.
Also, they keep on maintaining that stealth does not work vs the pit fiend even for the sniper build, since there is never any cover in the areas the pit fiend moves.

I'll try to think of something else - an update of the Cyrano build to address all remaining problems as suggested by you and ZamielVanWeber.
Or maybe a completely different core fighter build. Maybe then we'll convince them.

But I guess it could be hard since ...

Animate Dead, Dominate Monster, Simularum, Planar Binding, the list goes on.

... these are spells in earnest brought up by ColorBlindNinja to replace a level 20 fighter.
I know, that the following likely will not be considered by him as "backing up my assertions". But I'll try.

What is "Animate Dead" doing at level 20? Creating mindless, limited minions that get destroyed quickly by all CR 16-20 challenges.
"Dominate Monster" does not work against all monsters. It also needs line of sight to work. It also needs to overcome saves and SR, is close range and highly unreliable since it is up to the GM to decide when something goes against its nature (receiving another save +2). Ah, and one of the cheapest magic items in the game completely blocks it.
"Simulacrum" creates half strength creatures that are expensive and will get destroyed in the CR 16-20 range faster than the wizard using it for combat can earn gold to replace it.
"Planar Binding" ... no, not going to repeat the discussion with Beheld again (super short summary: the planar bindings line are GM fiat spells, many risks involved)

This is what I meant by "completely different interpretations of rules". All of these spells involve GM playing created or called or dominated npcs replacing the fighter's contribution in the group with a "GM may I" strategy. This is odd coming from the fighter critic side insisting that leadership should not be allowed for the fighter.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Anthrowhale, you must realize that the fighter critics side had difficulty to accept your past rules quotes, so I guess they will also have problems with these.

Anthrowhale has repeatedly gotten the rules wrong throughout this entire thread.

They maintain that this is not " backing up your opinion".

Because it isn't.

Also, they keep on maintaining that the planetar should be using spells TO tactics to defeat fighters, even though the RAW says that they are likely to do melee instead.

- Scry and Die isn't TO.

- RAW is doesn't claim that Planetars will always engage their foes in melee.

Also, they keep on maintaining that stealth does not work vs the pit fiend even for the sniper build, since there is never any cover in the areas the pit fiend moves.

And?

I'll try to think of something else - an update of the Cyrano build to address all remaining problems as suggested by you and ZamielVanWeber.
Or maybe a completely different core fighter build. Maybe then we'll convince them.

But I guess it could be hard since ...



... these are spells in earnest brought up by ColorBlindNinja to replace a level 20 fighter.

That's because they can easily replace the Fighter.

I know, that the following likely will not be considered by him as "backing up my assertions". But I'll try.

So back up your arguments.

What is "Animate Dead" doing at level 20? Creating mindless, limited minions that get destroyed quickly by all CR 16-20 challenges.

You can make some nice Zombies, dragons for example, and Animate Undead's cousins (Create Undead/Greater) work well too. Plus, no one cares if those minions die, they can easily be replaced.

"Dominate Monster" does not work against all monsters. It also needs line of sight to work. It also needs to overcome saves and SR, is close range and highly unreliable since it is up to the GM to decide when something goes against its nature (receiving another save +2). Ah, and one of the cheapest magic items in the game completely blocks it.

- Dominate Monster is perfect for getting beatsticks.

- What Core magic item blocks it?

- DM fiat is meaningless in RAW debates.

"Simulacrum" creates half strength creatures that are expensive and will get destroyed in the CR 16-20 range faster than the wizard using it for combat can earn gold to replace it.

You can literally have hundreds of them for free and get Wishes. Edit: Great Wyrms are pretty tough, even with half HD.

"Planar Binding" ... no, not going to repeat the discussion with Beheld again (super short summary: the planar bindings line are GM fiat spells, many risks involved)

You can dominate the Outsiders you summon (or Geas them), and you can get free Wishes.

This is what I meant by "completely different interpretations of rules". All of these spells involve GM playing created or called or dominated npcs replacing the fighter's contribution in the group with a "GM may I" strategy. This is odd coming from the fighter critic side insisting that leadership should not be allowed for the fighter.

No, my interpretations of the spells are RAW, and unless you can quote rules to counter my arguments, you have no leg to stand on.

[Anthrowhale]

The surprise round begins when the Planetar steps out of the Gate,

I asked when the combat begins. That's because the rules state the when combat begins you can determine if a surprise round occurs.

When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

In this particular case, the Fighter will notice the Gate and view it under True Seeing. Hence, the Planetar will be observed stepping out of the gate. Hence, combat will begin with the Fighter aware of the Planetar. Hence, no surprise round happens.

If Plantar stands on the edge of Control Wind's AoE, in order to exit Control Wind's range, and Holy Smite's range, you have to move 1,500'. If the arena isn't that big, you can't get away.

I think you are somehow confusing radius and diameter and imagining that Control Wind is a mobile effect. If the Planetar is on the edge of the Control Wind effect, then 275' further away from the point of origin is is far enough that the Planetar must take a 5' step beyond the Control Winds effect to cast a Holy Smite that can affect the Fighter.

- You're the one who said that the Planetar is hunting down the Fighter, so I assume that it knows about him.

I don't think so. Citation need. I asked what you meant by Scry&Die.

- The Planetar is using Contact Other Planes to locate the Fighter so he can use Discern Location. The Planetar merely needs to have heard about the Fighter to Scry on him.

Discern Location says

To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it.

Contact Other Planes clearly does not achieve this so the strategy is broken. "once heard about" is also plausibly not a connection for the purpose of Scry.

So ask for advice how to find the Fighter.

... which doesn't work more than a week in advance.

- The Fighter has to sleep somewhere.

Almost certainly somewhere that Word of Recall won't work.

Then use the Control Winds route.

Which doesn't work as discussed above.

Overall, this is a long and complicated approach which seems to fail multiple ways.

[Tainted_Scholar]

You can tell when someone's lost an argument when they stop debating their point and presenting evidence, and instead just start complaining that 'It doesn't what evidence they present, you won't change your mind' or 'You clearly don't believe their argument, so debating with you is a waste of time'.

If their point is in fact true, then they would be able to present evidence or reasoning to back it up.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I asked when the combat begins. That's because the rules state the when combat begins you can determine if a surprise round occurs.

When the Planetar Gates in.

In this particular case, the Fighter will notice the Gate and view it under True Seeing. Hence, the Planetar will be observed stepping out of the gate. Hence, combat will begin with the Fighter aware of the Planetar. Hence, no surprise round happens.

No, the Fighter is unaware of the Planetar's existence when it appears, the Planetar can take a 5-foot step through the Gate as soon as it casts it. That begins the Surprise Round.

I think you are somehow confusing radius and diameter and imagining that Control Wind is a mobile effect. If the Planetar is on the edge of the Control Wind effect, then 275' further away from the point of origin is is far enough that the Planetar must take a 5' step beyond the Control Winds effect to cast a Holy Smite that can affect the Fighter.

The Fighter still has to move over 1,500' to get out of range. Edit: Of both spells, that is.

I don't think so. Citation need. I asked what you meant by Scry&Die.

You told me that earlier in the thread, I'll see if I can edit in the quote later.

Edit:

W.r.t. Cosi's comment about controlling the battlefield: this character is oriented towards fighting evil creatures given the holy enchantment on the bow. I think that level of specialization is reasonable and other compaigns I'd chose differently. Given the orientation towards fighting evil, the Planetar may indeed need to seek out the Fighter rather than vice-versa. So, there is an implicit additional constraint in that there has to be a reason for a Planetar to want to fight an evil-killer Fighter. This Fighter would not generally seek out a Planetar for killing.

Emphasis mine; that implies you thought that the Planetar is hunting down the Fighter. Unless I misunderstood what you meant?

Discern Location says Contact Other Planes clearly does not achieve this so the strategy is broken.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself; Contact Other Planes tells the Planetar where the Fighter is, so it can see him.

"once heard about" is also plausibly not a connection for the purpose of Scry.

Excuse me?

Secondhand (you have heard of the subject) +5

... which doesn't work more than a week in advance.

And?

Almost certainly somewhere that Word of Recall won't work.

Where would that be?

Which doesn't work as discussed above.

It does work. Edit: Your only response so far is the Fighter can run away if the arena is large enough; color me unimpressed.

Overall, this is a long and complicated approach which seems to fail multiple ways.

You've yet to prove that.

[Ivanhoe]

Anthrowhale has repeatedly gotten the rules wrong throughout this entire thread.

Where?

Because it isn't.

What could then be backing up opinions it if not the RAW?

- Scry and Die isn't TO.

No-one ever said that. It was only proven that your scry and die tactics do not work on someone with a high will save that the scryer has never seen. With RAW, by the way.

- RAW is doesn't claim that Planetars will always engage their foes in melee.

No-one ever said that. It is only "likely" that they do so, as per RAW which you think does not back up claims: "Despite their vast array of magical powers, planetars are likely to wade into melee with their +3 greatswords. " This is the third or fourth time this has been quoted. And it completely makes your ideas of how the MM planetar should be played redundant for the purpose of this thread.

You can make some nice Zombies, dragons for example, and Animate Undead's cousins (Create Undead/Greater) work well too. Plus, no one cares if those minions die, they can easily be replaced.

Don't they cost gold that is then deducted from wbl? Wait...SRD: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells. (Animate Dead). You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 50 gp per HD of the undead to be created into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless shells.(Create Undead). This spell functions like create undead, except that you can create more powerful and intel-ligent sorts of undead...(greater Create Undead)
But I know. This is not backing up my assertions. (whereas I just noticed that you did not back up what you maintained with rules quotes).

- Dominate Monster is perfect for getting beatsticks.

No, it is not, for the reasons I outlined. Or only stupid beatsticks that do not matter in level 20 fights. Like zombie dragons.

- What Core magic item blocks it?

Potion of protection against evil (50 gp).

- DM fiat is meaningless in RAW debates.

Why should it be? Per RAW/DMG all npc are played by the GM. When you use spells that depend entirely on how the GM views the npcs should behave, you are reliant on the GM for the success of the group, not on the player playing the fighter.

You can literally have hundreds of them for free and get Wishes. Edit: Great Wyrms are pretty tough, even with half HD.

Yes, they are tough. And you cannot get those. You cannot get simulacra for free. At least not in non-infinite-loop campaigns. And you cannot get wishes with simulacra by RAW. Or please show me how.

You can dominate the Outsiders you summon (or Geas them), and you can get free Wishes.

What is the knowledge check required to know what outsiders to get for what wish SLA? My guess is that this does not work but - you guess it - with GM fiat. Will providing you with wishes for free not count as "going against its nature" for another save at +2? Again GM fiat.

No, my interpretations of the spells are RAW, and unless you can quote rules to counter my arguments, you have no leg to stand on.

Please quote this RAW that you base your idea on that the spells you mentioned replace the fighter at level 20.

Edit: Adding to this post:

You can tell when someone's lost an argument when they stop debating their point and presenting evidence, and instead just start complaining that 'It doesn't what evidence they present, you won't change your mind' or 'You clearly don't believe their argument, so debating with you is a waste of time'.

If their point is in fact true, then they would be able to present evidence or reasoning to back it up.

I see that you do not wish to answer to my requests for what you wish the fighter to do to get you convinced. That appears an easy way out of a debate.
At the moment I have the feeling there is some filibustering technique used by the fighter critics side. Even after proven otherwise, they keep bringing up wrong statements. I do not know what to say.

What I do not doubt is that a wizard will in core beat level 20 challenges much better than a fighter (so far no really convincing strategy has come forward, but I guess there is some way).
But I simply do not understand this aversion against the fighter class to even start maintaining that mid level spells can replace level 20 fighters.
Also, why spells that depend so much on how the GM interprets the npcs involved should be the main cornerstone of a smart wizard's tactics.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Where?

His confusion about Surprise Rounds, SLA casting times, how Mummies fear aura's work, ect.

What could then be backing up opinions it if not the RAW?

That's the rub; team Fighter haven't back up their assertions with RAW.

No-one ever said that. It was only proven that your scry and die tactics do not work on someone with a high will save that the scryer has never seen. With RAW, by the way.

No, the scryer doesn't need to have seen them, and the Fighter will fail the save eventually.

No-one ever said that. It is only "likely" that they do so, as per RAW which you think does not back up claims: "Despite their vast array of magical powers, planetars are likely to wade into melee with their +3 greatswords. " This is the third or fourth time this has been quoted. And it completely makes your ideas of how the MM planetar should be played redundant for the purpose of this thread.

No intelligent being will do that if they can cast spells. Edit: It's also not RAW, it's suggested tactics.

Don't they cost gold that is then deducted from wbl? Wait...SRD: You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse you intend to animate. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless, burned-out shells. (Animate Dead). You must place a black onyx gem worth at least 50 gp per HD of the undead to be created into the mouth or eye socket of each corpse. The magic of the spell turns these gems into worthless shells.(Create Undead). This spell functions like create undead, except that you can create more powerful and intel-ligent sorts of undead...(greater Create Undead)
But I know. This is not backing up my assertions. (whereas I just noticed that you did not back up what you maintained with rules quotes).

Getting infinite gold is easy.

No, it is not, for the reasons I outlined. Or only stupid beatsticks that do not matter in level 20 fights. Like zombie dragons.

You mean like the Fighter, oh snap! Again, they're expendable, and can easily be replaced.

Potion of protection against evil (50 gp).

Which is easy to dispel, and only lasts a minute?

Why should it be? Per RAW/DMG all npc are played by the GM. When you use spells that depend entirely on how the GM views the npcs should behave, you are reliant on the GM for the success of the group, not on the player playing the fighter.

Because RAW doesn't care about DM rulings; every DM is different, so appealing to one to fix things isn't an argument.

Yes, they are tough. And you cannot get those. You cannot get simulacra for free. At least not in non-infinite-loop campaigns. And you cannot get wishes with simulacra by RAW. Or please show me how.

You can get free Wishes with Planar Binding to get a free Simulacrum that has a Wish SLA.

What is the knowledge check required to know what outsiders to get for what wish SLA? My guess is that this does not work but - you guess it - with GM fiat.

Contact Other Planes and a simple DC 20 Knowledge check is enough to learn about Efreeti.

Will providing you with wishes for free not count as "going against its nature" for another save at +2? Again GM fiat.

A will save that it can only make on a 20?

Please quote this RAW that you base your idea on that the spells you mentioned replace the fighter at level 20.

Using spells to create/get minions; what spells do you want RAW quotes for?

[Rhyltran]

There are more serious things that can happen to the Planetar than dying (Imprisonment for example).

That's true but the very obvious fighter is probably unlikely going to be able to do it.

That doesn't change the fact that the Fighter is sub optimal.

Absolutely. No denying that.

This isn't a case of "want", we're trying to determine who would triumph.

Thus my issue like before. Who will triumph will depend on the game, GM, setting, and player.

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's true but the very obvious fighter is probably unlikely going to be able to do it.

Eh, being stabbed still hurts.

Absolutely. No denying that.

OK.

Thus my issue like before. Who will triumph will depend on the game, GM, setting, and player.

There's no DM in this scenario, only RAW.

[Tainted_Scholar]

I see that you do not wish to answer to my requests for what you wish the fighter to do to get you convinced.

Really? I want to to prove that a Fighter can beat a Pit Fiend and Planetar. You know, the entire point of this thread.

.
At the moment I have the feeling there is some filibustering technique used by the fighter critics side. Even after proven otherwise, they keep bringing up wrong statements. I do not know what to say.

You have yet to prove any of the Outsider tactics wrong. My personal favorite is chain-Gating Titans, you have an answer to that?

Also, that statement just overloaded my Irony meter.

But I simply do not understand this aversion against the fighter class to even start maintaining that mid level spells can replace level 20 fighters.

I don't give a crap about that, I just want you prove what you've been saying this whole thread. Prove that the Archer can beat the Outsiders.

[ColorBlindNinja]

What I do not doubt is that a wizard will in core beat level 20 challenges much better than a fighter (so far no really convincing strategy has come forward, but I guess there is some way).

Shades emulating Trap the Soul is practically foolproof.

But I simply do not understand this aversion against the fighter class to even start maintaining that mid level spells can replace level 20 fighters.
Also, why spells that depend so much on how the GM interprets the npcs involved should be the main cornerstone of a smart wizard's tactics.

Aversion? This about the how the Fighter performs VS minions the Wizard can easily obtain.

[Rhyltran]

Eh, being stabbed still hurts.

The time it takes to recover makes this a very minor inconvenience. Heck, pain might actually even feel good. Reminds the being that it's alive.

There's no DM in this scenario, only RAW.

That would be neat. I'd love for RAW to DM for me and my group so I can take a break at times. I'd love to play more often.

[ColorBlindNinja]

The time it takes to recover makes this a very minor inconvenience. Heck, pain might actually even feel good. Reminds the being that it's alive.

I can think of better ways to be reminded that you're alive.

That would be neat. I'd love for RAW to DM for me and my group so I can take a break at times. I'd love to play more often.

This is debate on an internet forum, not a game, arguments don't have DMs.

[Ivanhoe]

I notice you still do not use rules quotes.
Well, I'll reply to the best of my ability.

His confusion about Surprise Rounds, SLA casting times, how Mummies fear aura's work, ect.

The one appearing to be confused about surprise rounds appears to be you. SLA casting times afaik had no impact on the discussion and mummies' fear aura is in fact a despair (su) ability. Hopefully you do not assume that the pit fiend is so stupid as to surround himself with mummies or he would be constantly paralyzed.

That's the rub; team Fighter haven't back up their assertions with RAW.

Still waiting for your rules quotes to back up your claims.

No, the scryer doesn't need to have seen them, and the Fighter will fail the save eventually.

After 400 days. Try again next campaign.

No intelligent being will do that if they can cast spells.

Still it's the RAW. Monsters are intelligent, but they also have certain characteristics. Again, it is: "likely". Not always. Nothing prevents a GM from having a planetar with certain spell combos challenging a party. But this thread is about whether a fighter can overcome default core challenges. And the RAW is melee for planetar.

Getting infinite gold is easy.

No, it is not. Either you follow wbl or you do not - then imbalance occurs (as per DMG). And we want to avoid imbalance. (btw, all classes can get infinite gold)

You mean like the Fighter, oh snap! Again, they're expendable, and can easily be replaced.

Funny.

Which is easy to dispel, and only lasts a minute?

You asked for what cheap item blocks it. And it does. Your countermeasures again cost actions and can in turn be countered etc. And 1 minute in level 20 combat can be long...

Because RAW doesn't care about DM rulings; every DM is different, so appealing to one to fix things isn't an argument.

That is the reason why I think using spells that depend on the GM should not be used in such an argument.

You can get free Wishes with Planar Binding to get a free Simulacrum that has a Wish SLA.

That is what I thought. Again, no rules quotes.
You cannot get free wishes with planar binding except through GM fiat (knowing/finding out without metagaming that particular wish SLA)
You cannot get a simulacrum that has a wish SLA since there are no rules for determining abilities of creatures that have half HD. At best, their caster level gets below the level of a wish. At worst, they get no abilities at all. Complete GM call (since it is a custom creature to be created).

Contact Other Planes and a simple DC 20 Knowledge check is enough to learn about Efreeti.

Yes, but not its key ability that is likely to be the most treasured and secret knowledge in all of the campaign. Not without GM fiat.

A will save that it can only make on a 20?

Depends on the creature whose wish you want to use.

Using spells to create/get minions; what spells do you want RAW quotes for?

More than none would be a nice start.
But take your time. I'm taking a break for the weekend. Will think about Cyrano revision and a new fighter build.
Hey, who knows - maybe I will eventually convince you.

[Rhyltran]

I can think of better ways to be reminded that you're alive.

So can I but I also know after living for EONS those things might get boring. It's probably really thrilling/liberating to just wade in and fight your most hated foes face to face and relish in the glory of battle. Get that adrenaline pumping.

This is debate on an internet forum, not a game, arguments don't have DMs.

No DM means no scenario which means no fight. RAW claims monsters need to be played by DM's or players. Players can't play the game without a dm so according to RAW the planetar and the pit fiend are nothing but mere stat blocks. By RAW there's no debate because there's no game.

[Ivanhoe]

Shades emulating Trap the Soul is practically foolproof.

Just noticed this. Maybe you would wish to explain what you mean by that? I see saving throws involved but possibly I am overlooking something?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I notice you still do not use rules quotes.
Well, I'll reply to the best of my ability.



The one appearing to be confused about surprise rounds appears to be you. SLA casting times afaik had no impact on the discussion and mummies' fear aura is in fact a despair (su) ability. Hopefully you do not assume that the pit fiend is so stupid as to surround himself with mummies or he would be constantly paralyzed.

It seems you share his misconceptions; the Pit Fiend only has to pass the save once and its immune for 24 hours; it only takes a standard action for it to animate undead.

Still waiting for your rules quotes to back up your claims.

Tell me what you want quotes for.

After 400 days. Try again next campaign.

The Planetar's immortal, it can wait; this is an internet exercise, not a campaign. It also can use Contact Other Planes/Discern Location instead.

Still it's the RAW. Monsters are intelligent, but they also have certain characteristics. Again, it is: "likely". Not always. Nothing prevents a GM from having a planetar with certain spell combos challenging a party. But this thread is about whether a fighter can overcome default core challenges. And the RAW is melee for planetar.

It's not a rule, so it's not RAW.

No, it is not. Either you follow wbl or you do not - then imbalance occurs (as per DMG). And we want to avoid imbalance. (btw, all classes can get infinite gold)

WBL is a guideline, not a rule, and its one which Wizards can easily break.

Funny.

For once we're in agreement.

You asked for what cheap item blocks it. And it does. Your countermeasures again cost actions and can in turn be countered etc. And 1 minute in level 20 combat can be long...

How is the monster realizing that it needs the potion a minute before it gets dominated?

That is the reason why I think using spells that depend on the GM should not be used in such an argument.

Then why do you do it?

That is what I thought. Again, no rules quotes.

Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom

1. You trap a monster that can grant Wishes.

Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

2. You have the monster wish for a scroll of Simulacrum, or a Ring of 3 Wishes that can emulate Simulacrum. Dominate/Geas it if it doesn't comply.

imulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

3. You get a Simulacrum of a creature with a Wish SLA.

4. Profit.

You cannot get free wishes with planar binding except through GM fiat (knowing/finding out without metagaming that particular wish SLA)
You cannot get a simulacrum that has a wish SLA since there are no rules for determining abilities of creatures that have half HD. At best, their caster level gets below the level of a wish. At worst, they get no abilities at all. Complete GM call (since it is a custom creature to be created).Yes, but not its key ability that is likely to be the most treasured and secret knowledge in all of the campaign. Not without GM fiat.

It is not, you get the abilities of the creature, SLAs included, especially since CL isn't tied to HD. Edit: Any amount of HD is "appropriate" for SLAs.

Depends on the creature whose wish you want to use.

The Efferti can't make the save unless it rolls a 20.

More than none would be a nice start.

But take your time. I'm taking a break for the weekend. Will think about Cyrano revision and a new fighter build.

I quoted several rules above.

Hey, who knows - maybe I will eventually convince you.

You'll need to back up your arguments with RAW to do that.

Edit:

Just noticed this. Maybe you would wish to explain what you mean by that? I see saving throws involved but possibly I am overlooking something?

Shades emulates the trigger object version of Trap the Soul; even if the target saves, they lose 80% of the time.

[emeraldstreak]

There's no DM in this scenario, only RAW.

Then start following it. Right now you're ignoring the RAW on tactics, Beheld is ignoring the RAW on terrain, chain-gaters are ignoring the RAW on what constitutes behaving like a Player Character which transforms a monster into a PC with CR=RHD+LA.

And all of that just so you can threaten a measly Core Fighter who nobly isn't exploiting what's RAWly given to all PCs. That's just a pathetic showing.