General Exalted Discussion Thread IX: Errata is Combo-Ok!

[Lochar]

Here's you a funny question.

An Infernal with an Ascendency Mantle uses Black Mirror Shintai (bought twice) on a Solar. By the rules of the Charm...

Although the transformed Infernal remains a creature of darkness and native of Malfeas, he is not actually an Infernal for the duration, but is instead whatever he mimics.

So we're officially Solar Bob now, for an indefinate period of time.

Somehow, fake Solar Bob is knocked out, and wakes up in a Monstrance of Celestial Portion. His Willpower is beaten down before he can release the Shintai (or he chooses not to, for reasons unknown to us), and he chooses to become an Abyssal.

Can he actually be converted?

[golentan]

I would say yes. He can be converted into an abyssal, however when he releases Black Mirror Shintai, I would say that he reverts to being an infernal. I'd suggest that he remain a creature of death as per Ultimate Darkness Internalization unless and until he activates that charm to become otherwise, but that's the sum effect on his true self.

[Gensh]

Spoiler for length:

Spoiler

Show

Sorry for the late response; I had to drive home for the weekend and wasn't able to get my laptop to connect to the internet on top of that. Had I been able to respond as the critiques were coming in, I'd probably do individual responses, but since that'd mean a wall of text at this point and there would be a bit of overlap and rambling, I'll just give a general response if nobody minds. I'll clarify individual issues if I miss them once I've given a general explanation.

Basically, the purpose of the Limit rewrite was, as stated, to make it a more gradual thing. While certainly not all players are like my previous groups and just pick an easy one from the book (because sociopathy is an objective benefit in many cases; other people's feelings don't matter in the face of UMI), even if it is roleplayed appropriately, it doesn't follow any sort of context within the game world. Since I expect at least a decent portion of you have a passing familiarity with Keychain of Creation, I'll note Misho's LB as an example of what I'm talking about. Certainly, Heart of Tears flows from his character concept, but his sudden descent into it doesn't quite fit - it's too abrupt. I, myself, have had such outbreaks before - again, it makes sense given circumstances seen and unseen for the character - but for three hundred Solars and three hundred Lunars to all suffer from such crippling madness on a semi-regular basis doesn't make sense. There were certainly Sidereal and Dragonblooded Primordial War veterans; how could such a widespread, selective madness have gone unnoticed (at least before the Solars went really crazy)? The Lunars could be attributed to Luna, but the Solars - the bastions of stability? Nope.

That's the reason why I tried to revise the Solars before the other Exalt types - because I felt that it was needed the most here. Originally, I conceived of the idea in relation to Abyssals, to make Resonance eruptions less disruptive (and less casual, in the case that's happening: "brb guys, smoke/Resonance break"). Using Clarity there along with smaller eruptions would make things more interesting, with Abyssals now not just wondering about when some arbitrary Dark Fate would strike down their puppy but instead consciously growing more powerful in death until their accidentally kill the puppy with a touch. Abyssals who wanted a redemption story would be able to play that out from the very beginning with managing Resonance, while those that enjoyed the carnage could revel in it and gain minor perks. Of course Infernals would be the same but would be tied to a Yozi of their choice instead. They could struggle to retain their humanity or deliberately limit their actions to their Urge and their Excellencies for power, emphasizing that they truly have made a deal with the devil.

As I've said, though, I really felt that Solar Limit was the most flawed, to the point of being almost arbitrary if not dealt with by the player explicitly. I played with a few different ideas - as you can see, I had originally called it Passion and it had originally been about hotbloodedness before I changed it. Unlike Abyssals and Infernals, the Solars have actually succeeded and been uplifted rather than failed and forced to bargain with dark forces - I could not merely give them some sort of capricious devil's bargain. Likewise, I felt that tying them to Sol wasn't quite right, as Limit was supposed to be low-key and within the human range of emotion, leading me to throw out some glowy sorts of effects like the Zeal 10 manifestation (and even that didn't quite work out, looking at the math). Instead, I tied it to the Virtues, intending for it to be a hotblooded sort of thing and used examples from Asura's Wrath as high-Zeal characters (Compassion - Asura; Conviction - Deus; Temperance - Yasha; Valor - Augus). Of course, being a Solar is not all about being hotblooded, and the Limit-driven madness of the First Age couldn't quite be described as the result of testosterone poisoning. I'm not sure exactly what happened at the end, but I ultimately changed it to the archetypal heroic hubris. All else aside, that was a terrible design choice.

Mechanically, meschlum has revealed the results of me simply writing and not actually checking the math at all, but as a general rule, his observation matches my intention. Irrespective of the final design, it was my intention that the new version of Limit would drive Solars to heroism but allow them to retain their agency in doing so - to allow them to not have to save every cat stuck in a tree and to allow them to haze their new circlemate without consequence. I'd actually meant to remove suppressing Virtues from the "Gain Zeal" list, as that originated with the "s*** let's be sol" point in the design phase and was supposed to be replace by Denying the Call. This was meant to penalize characters who let the timer count down in order to finish sidequests. I never quite got the phrasing right and threw in some vague terms about serving humanity so they wouldn't get dinged for not helping harvest the crops or whatever. I did, however, intend for Virtue to be relevant such that something related to them would result in Zeal gains and losses but couldn't exactly figure out what to do. As meschlum mentioned, Zeal gains and losses are rapid as of now. While I didn't intend for permanent Zeal to be removed so easily (again with the bad math), I did intend for temporary Zeal to shoot up with a failure and then rapidly drop, alluding to the trope of the hero losing, training himself half to death and being whiny, then finally getting it all out in a good cry or fight.

...I think that's my whole explanation. I'm not trying to make any assumptions about players or the setting. I'm just trying to make things a little more interesting.

[Lix Lorn]

I am recruiting for a game.
Please be gentle.

[Xefas]

Lix inadvertently requested this via PM.

Iconic Flesh Refraction
Cost: 1m (+1m); Mins: Cult 1, Essence 3; Type: Simple
Keywords: Messianic, Sorcerous
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: Temple Self Apotheosis

Cecelyne defines her body solely through her Primordial nature, as a legend and concept more than a creature. The Green Sun Princes are not so lucky, and so they innovated this charm through the Endless Desert's understanding of gaining power through the worship of lessers, that they might more perfectly define their physical self.

By activating this charm, the Infernal focuses on the prayers of her faithful, drinking them in and giving them a form of material reality within herself via a committed mote of Essence. For the duration, the Infernal may choose to lose the mote and willpower respiration granted by one or more dots of her Cult background.

For every dot of Cult she commits, she temporarily adds that many dots to one of (Strength, Stamina, or Appearance), shaping her physical self to be more akin to the omnipotent deity her followers desperately need. For physical attributes, her muscles swell and sculpt themselves into an almost unnaturally statuesque physique. An increase in Appearance also causes a certain awe-inspiring swelling, although not always in one's musculature.

Unlike other Sorcerous charms, the Infernal must still commit the cost of Iconic Flesh Refraction for its duration.

At Cult 4, Essence 4, the Infernal may reflexively pay one mote to empower her supernatural appearance for a single tick. The maximum bonus she may receive from relative Appearance against the targets of her social attacks becomes equal to the number of dots of Cult she has committed to this charm, but only against creatures that have an intimacy of reverence towards her.

[Lix Lorn]

...xD
I want it
But I don't know how to make it useful

[Xefas]

...xD
I want it
But I don't know how to make it useful

Yeah, I guess it's just yet another appearance booster.

On the plus side, for men, This + Viridian Legend Exoskeleton + A Stunt means using your own enormous brass balls as an improvised form weapon for Infernal Monster Style.

("This is what Appearance 10 looks like under the hood." *smack*)

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah, I guess it's just yet another appearance booster.

On the plus side, for men, This + Viridian Legend Exoskeleton + A Stunt means using your own enormous brass balls as an improvised form weapon for Infernal Monster Style.

("This is what Appearance 10 looks like under the hood." *smack*)

more that you can't get enough cult dots to make it useful
Unless you can take cult 3 and cult 3
like you can have artifact 3 and 3
I should really go to bed

[Qwertystop]

Yeah, I guess it's just yet another appearance booster.

On the plus side, for men, This + Viridian Legend Exoskeleton + A Stunt means using your own enormous brass balls as an improvised form weapon for Infernal Monster Style.

("This is what Appearance 10 looks like under the hood." *smack*)

Now my sister thinks I'm crazy, because I just burst out giggling...

[Rikandur Azebol]

It also gives new meaning to the "Spear that Pierces the Heaven" charm, right ?

[X15lm204]

It also gives new meaning to the "Spear that Pierces the Heaven" charm, right ?

New meaning? I refuse to believe that Star-Piercing Spear of Glory was not written to be read as "awesome crotch-laser" from the very beginning.

[Arrghus]

New meaning? I refuse to believe that Star-Piercing Spear of Glory was not written to be read as "awesome crotch-laser" from the very beginning.

This was discussed when BWC first came out. According to my memories, Holden Shearer (aka Holden, Hamstermonkey and IIRC the developer of that book) had explicitly asked Michael Goodwin (aka Nephilpal, the Charm's creator) and received an affirmative answer.

In summary, yes. Yes it was.

[Gensh]

New meaning? I refuse to believe that Star-Piercing Spear of Glory was not written to be read as "awesome crotch-laser" from the very beginning.

Incidentally, next week's avatar theme is "nude," and the avatar I made is entirely appropriate here.

[Xefas]

Incidentally, next week's avatar theme is "nude," and the avatar I made is entirely appropriate here.

I like how that light could either be censorship, or the Brass Dancer's reproductive organs could just be a nuclear explosion.

That's why Exalted's demons are the best demons.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Agreed, nothing blows away like hard green rays !

[Qwertystop]

Are there any standard guidelines for balancing a new Infernal charmset? I'm trying to make a character for Lix's DT game, but I don't want to waste time on something that will end up being extremely OP or UP.

[aetherialDawn]

Are there any standard guidelines for balancing a new Infernal charmset? I'm trying to make a character for Lix's DT game, but I don't want to waste time on something that will end up being extremely OP or UP.

For my part, I can do charms to some degree - but anima powers are hard.
The actives have good precedent in the Alchemical and Night caste anima powers - all of them work on (Essence) dice or an (Essence/2) external penalty, for a particular sort of action.
Adamant caste has their power, which requires (Essence) willpower to resist.


But the passives are all over the map; Dawns get a reduced XP tax. Zeniths, universal priesthood. Nights, Anima suppression. Eclipse, Diplomatic Immunities.


I'd love to join the game, but there's just so much work that I'm a little scared to (I have been talking to people, though, so I may try to hop in soon.)


...actually answering your question a bit: Make sure that anything which exists outside dice caps is a small benefit, ideally of a non-stacking sort, and be aware that it will still probably get abused a bit. Try to sort your charm based on what situation you intend it for, and it will be easier to find similar charms to compare against.

Since Yozi, thus DT, charms sometimes do this: Exceedingly general charms are okay. It's key to make sure that no one area is overpowered, and that a specialist can still outdo you - beneath that, most things are okay, and ideally should encompass stunting. Principle-Invoking Onslaught is a good example; it can break economies with transmutation, but it doesn't do so nearly as well as a dedicated Bureaucrat. In combat, its primary effects are to exploit weaknesses (possible with a stunt) and to set up clinches (which are its primary mechanical effect)

[Volthawk]

I'd love to join the game, but there's just so much work that I'm a little scared to (I have been talking to people, though, so I may try to hop in soon.)

Pretty much my thoughts on it - homebrewing an entire charmset and doing the other bits and bobs seems quite a bit of work to do right-off.

[Lix Lorn]

Well!
First off, compare and contrast the mechanics of what you want to do to existing charms, starting with existing infernal stuff, and moving sideways to compare with solar or abyssals if you can't find the effect. Remember that your character is different to your charmset. Your charmset should have holes and weaknesses, same as every other primordial charmset, but your character is free to take other charms to fill the holes. Most importantly, bug people to give feedback. If you have AIM, I can prolly help out there.

[Qwertystop]

What I mean is a set of guidelines that says, for example,

"An Essence 3 Charm should be able to do something equal in power to ____"

"A charm on the second tier of a prerequisite tree should not add more than ___ dice to a pool, if it has such an effect"

Theoretically, I could do this by looking at the Charms in the books, but as I don't know which charms in the books are balanced and which are not, I'm more likely to mess up.

[TheCountAlucard]

So, you lot prepared for Shards? All the spoilers lately on WW Forums have left me wanting to invent time travel.

[Volthawk]

What I mean is a set of guidelines that says, for example,

"An Essence 3 Charm should be able to do something equal in power to ____"

"A charm on the second tier of a prerequisite tree should not add more than ___ dice to a pool, if it has such an effect"

Theoretically, I could do this by looking at the Charms in the books, but as I don't know which charms in the books are balanced and which are not, I'm more likely to mess up.

Eh, I think Exalted charm design isn't quite so regulated and defined.

[TheCountAlucard]

Eh, I think Exalted charm design isn't quite so regulated and defined.

Gonna quote from the sidebar on Essence and Ability minimums for Charms.

The Ability minimums for Charms reflect the kind of mundane skill that the Charm enhances. If the Charm improves basic competence, it has a low Ability minimum. If it enhances the kindso f special tricks legendary masters do, it has a high Ability minimum.
Charms with an Essence minimum of 1 are usually internal. Unless the Charm is Obvious, it's hard for observers to distinguish the Charm from luck or ordinary competence.
Charms with an Essence minimum of 2 are usually feats appropriate to pulp and epic heroes.
Charms with an Essence minimum of 3 are usually magical expressions of [the Exalt's] Essence - they create something from nothing or infuse Essence into the world.
Charms with an Essence minimum of 4 reflect [an Exalt's] transformation into a world-shaking font of... power. They are mighty, angelic powers.
Charms with an Essence minimum of 5 touch on the remaining glory of the First Age. They are the Charms appropriate to the lords of Creation, the conquerers of chaos, the leaders of nations.

[Volthawk]

Gonna quote from the sidebar on Essence and Ability minimums for Charms.

Still not as defined and regulated as what Qwertystop was asking for.

[TheCountAlucard]

Still not as defined and regulated as what Qwertystop was asking for.

Oh, I know - I was just saying, there are some guidelines. I should probably have quoted Qwerty's post instead of yours.

[tonberrian]

Still not as defined and regulated as what Qwertystop was asking for.

Which is because what Qwertystop wants, frankly, does not exist. Creating charms is an art, not a science. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it's true.

[Qwertystop]

Well, thanks for pointing me in that direction, anyway. It's better than nothing.

[tonberrian]

ANYWAYS, I've also got a Devil-Tiger which y'all might be interested in.

[Qwertystop]

Can anyone help me with figuring out how to put together a First Excellency? I have an idea of my character, but I can't figure out how to rephrase a one-paragraph description into a half-page of extremely descriptive or flowery writing.

Also, how many charms would need to be in my new, self-made set of charms? I'm starting to worry that I don't have enough ideas to manage this.

[Lix Lorn]

I can answer the second bit at least-as many or few as you like. the only charms I specifically need to exist are the general charms.