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2012-08-08, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Forgot to mention!
OOTS torturing:
Roy dangling the Oracle
Celia electrocuting a bound Nale
V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats
Miko putting Belkar in the hole
The saga of the dominated Kobold.
Torture is evil indeed!
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2012-08-08, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
While there are days I wish I hadn't been born, there are also days where I cannot believe how happy I am. Overall, I think the happy days outweigh the unhappy.
The suicider might not have won his case, but the people on the train probably won theirs since it kinda was Mr Incredible's fault that they got hurt.
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2012-08-08, 06:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-08, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
-James Graham, 1st Marquess of Montrose
Satomi by Elagune
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2012-08-08, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Roy dangling the Oracle
Celia electrocuting a bound Nale
V rigging Belkar's coffee and charming Muskrats
Miko putting Belkar in the hole
The saga of the dominated Kobold.
Torture is evil indeed!Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2012-08-08 at 06:43 PM.
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2012-08-08, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
And the only reason the OOTS forum isn't covered in threads about those deeds is that there's a ban on "morally justified" threads.
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2012-08-08, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Rebuke
SpoilerSyndrome has regularly been described by critics, commentators and wiki-editors as a complete monster who repeatedly crosses the moral event horizon. The critic Confused Matthew refers to Syndrome as “so evil and sadistic that it was unpleasant just to watch him on screen”. Admittedly Syndrome does taunt Mr Incredible and his family regularly but the rest of his actions are not evil.
Many of them are not “good” by the usual standard but all are well-intentioned and after all, there is no one way to do the right thing.
Some are positively good, stripping Syndrome’s actions of the evil everyone else believes he has.
Syndrome’s first “evil action” in the film would be the murder of the 15 supers killed by his Omnidroid. Although I have mentioned that all of them went on the island of their own free-will, all died in dignity and all received a lot of money that was not the only reason.
do you call decomposing in an underwater cavern, away from anyone's sight and without a proper burrial, no notice given to your loved ones and nobody to praise your deeds dignity? this isn't dignity even to the Wagner opus you refer to when talking about "warrior's death" and other such. if it were, it would still not apply. Nordic myths and modern day western civilisation have very different values. I can promise you, nobody at Pixar was thinking about famous last stands or Valhalla when they were writing this plot. As for the money.. who is to say that those who died actually got the money promised to them? then again, I've already stated in rebuttal nr 1 that money may not have played a role with the previous supers.
cops choose put themselves at risk for money and other reasons..and "die with dignity"..that doesn't make the thugs that shoot at them right to do so
The real reason is that almost every one of those “Super-heroes” was dangerous to society.
Syndrome was doing a medal worthy service by getting rid of them.
it's just getting stupid...but as I said, I'm bored.
The 2-disc DVD has fact files for 12 of those 15. I have already mentioned Universal Man and his lack of secret identity. Now I will mention the rest:
• Psycwave. Power: Mind Control. This alone is dangerous. Mind control can really mess up the world. Too deadly to fall into the wrong hands.
• Everseer. Powers: Clairvoyance, Telepathy and Magni-Vision. A mind reader who can observe from a distance and see the future. This is dangerous to the government as he would know supers were being killed. Plus, he was a paranoid germophobe. Certainly the type to believe in conspiracies.
anyway, that would be true IF the government knew about it..and you're the only one claiming it did.
I'm actually surprised.. this super should have seen the plot coming and have survived it.
• Macroburst. Power: Wind Control. This androgynous person was the kid side-kick of Everseer. He/She would likely have been inducted from an early age in Everseer’s conspiracy theories. He may also have been in contact with Everseer.
• Phylange. Power: Sound Manipulation. Phylange’s file describes him as selfish and not very popular amongst his peers. This sounds bittered.
• Blazestone. Power: Fire. She was a reformed villain. Her file recommends that she be under supervision. Supervision which would likely be costly.
• Downburst. Power: Matter Creation. The husband of Blazestone. He worked for the government even after the ban to find a way to use his powers to mass produce manufactured products. This could be dangerous if Blazestone managed to convince him to turn to evil.
• Hypershock. Power: Seismic Waves. His file also asks for supervision as he has a bad temper. Earthquakes controlled by a bad-tempered person? Risk.
• Apogee. Power: Gravity Control. This is a lethal power but Apogee sounds on her interview like a nice person. People do change over time though.
• Blitzerman, Tradewind, Vectress. They don’t have files on the DVD. This may mean they were “un-personed” because they were evil.
• Stormicide. Power: Gale Force Bursts. Looked after a sick Uncle. Depending on the circumstances of his inevitable death, this may have bittered her against the world.
• Gazerbeam. Power: Laser Eyes. He was a defence attorney who campaigned to remove the ban on super-heroes. Not only would he have noticed the disappearances, but the government would not want the ban to be overturned with dangerous supers like:
• Gamma Jack. Power: Radiation. A megalomaniac, who could disintegrate at 100 metres, was only in the super-hero business for the ladies and believed that supers were a “superior race”.
• Mr Incredible. Power: Super Strength. Punched his boss through five walls and was recently fired from work. A time bomb waiting to go off.
Nearly everyone on this list was dangerous. This would also explain why when Mr Incredible hacked Syndrome’s computer, his wife Elastigirl and Frozone were not on his records despite Syndrome clearly knowing about them. They had not shown any clear signs of violent behaviour.
Frozone in fact was the next target.. the only reason they changed towards Mr Incredible is that they'd been looking for him all along. Once they found him they had no use for Frozone anymore. Elastigirl was on the system too. the only thing that was missing was her location.
Syndrome’s second “evil action” was being a weapons designer. Despite the negative connotations this profession possesses it is an important job. People need weapons so a weapons designer provides a valuable service to society. It is not a job to be vilified.
Syndrome’s third “evil action” was to torture Mr Incredible. Mr Incredible had sent a distress signal before his capture. As Syndrome knew Mr Incredible had hero contacts (hero contacts who could not be dissuaded by the government) he was trying to gain information as to which one it was. Jack Bauer interrogates people all the time, using much more dangerous methods than electrocution (Syndrome’s weapon of choice) on much weaker men.
It is not wrong to torture for information.
Syndrome’s fourth “evil action” was to send missiles to blow up a plane with both Elastigirl and both her and Mr Incredible’s two eldest children, Violet and Dash. This is believed to be Syndrome’s most evil act, mainly because he did not stop when told that there were children on the plane and he gloated at Mr Incredible upon realising they were people he cared about. However, not only is it not evil to gloat, Syndrome did not “know” there were children on board.
He was only told, he did not hear Violet or Dash. He only heard Elastigirl saying there were children aboard. It might have been a lie.
He is also completely entitled to blow up Elastigirl. Syndrome lives on a private island. Elastigirl was trespassing on his land.
As his island is not under any countries trespass laws, Syndrome is entitled to do what he wants.
Elastigirl was clearly affiliated with her husband therefore dangerous.
Furthermore, Violet and Dash were not supposed to be on the plane. They were supposed to be in school. At ages 10 and 14 it’s their own fault if they get caught in a dangerous mission. Plus, they skipped school! A truly heinous crime.
Syndrome’s fifth “evil action” was to not care about Mirage. After the plane blows up, Mr Incredible grabs Mirage and threatens to kill her if Syndrome doesn’t release him. Syndrome calls his bluff and even though Mr Incredible has nothing to lose, he can’t do it. Syndrome taunts him on this, calling him weak. This event sours Mirage’s opinion of Syndrome.
But Syndrome was actually showing great wisdom by knowing his opponent.
He would have intervened if Mirage was in real danger.
But she wasn’t. He made a calculated risk and it paid off. Plus, Mr Incredible was the one making death threats (disrespectful).
Syndrome’s sixth “evil action” was to send his giant Omnidroid to attack a city. This was not supported by the government, but it was a good action.
Syndrome’s eventual plan of creating the new generation of supers was a good idea. However, for a major change in world views to occur, a great event must happen to change everyone’s mind, to show everyone that supers are needed.
By sending a giant killer robot, impervious to the army and the police, the need for supers is shown. This would also spread peace in the world as people would be too worried about giant robots to fight (Syndrome sent the robot in a rocket which he sent into space first). This plan is in many ways similar to that of Ozymandias from Watchmen. Ozymandias planned to teleport a mutant squid he created into Times Square. This mutant squid would send a psychic wave across New York, killing thousands of people, including the squid. This would unite the world against a common enemy (aliens) and stop all wars (including the cold war). In a way Syndrome is doing this by preventing the threat of Supers rebelling and empowering the common man to be greater.
Syndrome’s seventh and final “evil action” was to attempt to kidnap Mr Incredible’s youngest child, baby Jack-Jack and raise him as his own son. This would in the long run have benefitted Jack-Jack. The Incredibles are clearly a dysfunctional family. Mr Incredible punched his boss through 5 walls and at the end of the film does not appear to have got a new job, Dash uses his super-speed to play pranks at school, which his father supports (in a selfish attempt to live through his child), Violet is shy and uses her invisibility to stalk boys and Elastigirl is unable to control her family and prevent them from starting a fight at the dinner table. What kind of lessons would these people be teaching Jack-Jack? Undoubtedly he would be surrounded by bad role-models. This is made worse by the reason why Syndrome failed in his kidnapping: Jack-Jack’s shape-shifting powers allowed him to best Syndrome. As seen from the short film Jack-Jack Attack Jack-Jack shape-shifting is so powerful it allows him to access numerous other powers (including flight, super strength, fire, invulnerability and phasing). This immense power and the inability to use it under the ban would likely have driven Jack-Jack violent and given him a superiority complex in later life. Furthermore, Syndrome was able to get to Jack-Jack because the baby sitter the child’s family left him with gave Jack-Jack flat out to the weapons designer due to her fear of the babys powers. Any family who would leave their boy in the hands of such a clueless person are obviously irresponsible. This tradition is continued by the end of the film’s implication that baby Jack-Jack superheroes with his family. One should not have a baby super hero no matter how powerful. It’s dangerous. In such a scenario, a child would be taken into care. This is what Syndrome was doing, he was again helping the government deal with their super problem by being super-social care.
Syndrome would have also made a good father.
When we see him in the process of kidnapping Jack-Jack he is feeding the babe milk and filling a box with his toys. Is this really the actions of a maniac? Syndrome is also rich. Jack-Jack would have lived a life of luxury with his new father. Syndrome would have spent a lot of time with his son. It is implied that Syndrome was ignored as a child by his parents. He would have done the opposite to any children he had. He would also have been nice to Jack-Jack given that he appears a pleasant person to his henchmen and Mirage. Only when taunting Mr Incredible is he unpleasant. Furthermore, Syndrome told Mr Incredible how he intended to train Jack-Jack as a super. This would prevent Jack-Jack from being a lazy playboy like many heirs and heiresses and allow him to harness and control his powers. This would give him a better experience in the long run.
Syndrome’s actions can now no longer be seen as evil. They were always for the good of society and never truly for any darker purpose than self-defence or helping others. But so does this lead into Syndrome being a benevolent force? Chapter 3 will reveal all.
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2012-08-08, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-08-08, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Did... did someone just try to justify torture using a webcomic?
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2012-08-08, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-08, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
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2012-08-08, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Actually, I'm pretty sure the people in the train would lose their case.
It's
a) Not proven that he was the cause in fact of their accident because had he not acted they still might have been killed or injured
b) not proven that he acted negligently even though something bad happened (there are accidents in the world that nobody is allowed to sue over)
c) not proven that the link between his actions and the damage caused fulfills the requirements of proximate cause, which, in a nutshell, says that just because something terrible happens because of something you did doesn't mean you can get sued if it was so unlikely to happen that nobody could have predicted it. A good example here is that if you accidentally tap someone's car and you get out to exchange insurance info and then someone else smashes their car to smithereens because they happened to stop in a bad spot, they can't win a suit against you, even though you technically caused them to be in that position by negligently hitting their car.
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2012-08-08, 08:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
The train would not have been involved at all if Mr. Incredible hadn't noticed the bomb on Buddy Pine's cape. Buddy likely would have exploded in mid-air rather than the bomb exploding on the tracks, with the worst damage coming from someone maybe getting hit with chunks of what was once Master Pine and his rocket boots.
There likely would be some major flak from a child dying while trying to imitate a superhero however.Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2012-08-08 at 09:05 PM.
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2012-08-08, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Yeah, but you're ignoring two things. First, let's recall that the bomb would never have been introduced had Bomb Voyage not tried to murder a child. Granted, he's a child that's foolish, but that's kind of what kids are supposed to be about. Mr. Incredible acting so as to save a child from a bomb (while holding onto his cape in mid-air) is an entirely non-tortious act (I'll say more below). Meanwhile, Bomb Voyage engaged in a classic case of transferred intent: he intended to kill Buddy, and instead ended up derailing a train and injuring a bunch of passengers when the bomb exploded. As such, any good lawyer in this world using our law could make a tort case out of that.
Second, our law has a set of defenses that give varying degrees of immunity from lawsuit. One such defense is absolute necessity, also known as the "savior of the city" doctrine. In cases where, in order to preserve human life, it becomes necessary to destroy property and/or cause injury, those who do such damage and/or injuries are immunized from suits. For example, if Anarion were to push Raven's Cry into the road, and I tried to rescue, but in pulling Raven's Cry from the road I separated RC's shoulder, I would not be liable; longstanding precedent has already determined we roll the damage for that into the damage inflicted by Anarion in the first place. Similarly, when Mr. Incredible removed the bomb and it came down on the train tracks, he would likely have been immunized from suit given his attempt to save a life and his subsequent actions saving the train.
Really, while we shouldn't read too much into it (it's a movie that needed to get from Point A to Point B; the law was just a plot device to get there and it did it well), but Hollywood has a history of using legal contrivances in the plot that our law already has doctrines to deal with.Characters:
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2012-08-08, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
That makes sense. In fact, a world with superheroes would need pretty lenient Good Samaritan laws for them to exist at all within the law.
It is the court of public opinion which would create the 'major flak' I am referring to.
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2012-08-08, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Ultimately, it was the court of public opinion and the costs of defending the heroes in the court of law that made the government make the supers go away, rather than the actual success of lawsuits.
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2012-08-08, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Of course, the court of public opinion is a fickle and easily changed beast. Mr. Incredible has a whole wall full of newspapers showing how awesome people thought he was back in the day, and literally minutes beforehand he took time out of a car chase and his own wedding to help a kitten out of a tree.
If they seriously wanted the supers to stick around, it probably wouldn't have been that hard. I think though, that there wasn't any real love lost between the supers and the powers that be, simply because the glory days era supers didn't seem to be all that nice. I mean Mr. Incredible was kind of blunt, at best. He, Elastigirl, and Frozone all came off as kind of arrogant in the interviews during the beginning, and it was mentioned in the thread already that plenty of other heroes came off as jerky as well.
Obviously since they were willing to help them through the case and let them get on with their lives, and since the actual government employees we see didn't have any ill will, it wasn't a case of overriding hatred, but having hundreds of gun-ho loose canons laying around isn't exactly a situation people tend to relish if they have to keep everything in control.
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2012-08-08, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
My theory was that they didn't win the case. But it opened the floodgate for suing. Every odd person and their grandma was looking to get a nice pile of cash. So newspapers started to ignore
"Hero saves schoolbus full of children" and started to write "Idiot destroys building" only adding fire to the effect.
Eventually the government just ran out of money to deal with the stuff, even if they didn't have to pay, each court case cost money.
And maybe at the time all the major villains where just caught. So the expense was not justified.
And this can easily fit the movies cannon.Last edited by Scowling Dragon; 2012-08-08 at 10:15 PM.
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2012-08-08, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
or maybe it was escalation.
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2012-08-08, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Syndrome is at BEST Hank Pym at his absolute zenith as a hero.
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2012-08-08, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
...woah, yeah. His scheme is remarkably similar to BreakdownWifeSwatPym's plan to unleash a robot and be a hero stopping it.
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2012-08-08, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
If all he did was the morally reprehensible "unleash killer robot you are fairly certain only you can defeat on unsuspecting city" act, he might be able to redeem himself and become a hero, it's the beta testing on supers over 15 or so years that really puts him into villain territory.
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2012-08-08, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-08-08, 11:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
absolutely not, but we're talking degrees of evil here while pulling an Ozymandius for the good of humanity is still inherently evil it does not mean that the person wasn't a hero at some point and could even possibly be one again despite the evil he has committed. A single act can be atoned for, though Syndrome does not seem the type, which is why he is a villain.
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2012-08-08, 11:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Last edited by Joran; 2012-08-08 at 11:39 PM.
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2012-08-08, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
No and that's not what he was saying what so ever. Notice the words "Morally reprehensible" before the whole "Unleashing Robot part." There's also a sense of scale here. Killer Robot=/=Nuclear Holocaust. Nor is mitigating the harm even a part of this. What we have here is a Strawman.
What he's saying is if -all- Syndrome had done was unleash a robot on the populous of a city than he could still be a hero if he tried. Ya know...after he suffered the punishment and all that.
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2012-08-08, 11:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
True. But hes not the type of person to do so.
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2012-08-09, 12:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Well, my reasoning was that if Mr Incredible had not been involved they would not have been in danger of death. However, McStabbington's analysis convinced me that my reasoning was faulty and wrong. While he might be a lawyer, I am definitely not.
So Hollywood law is nearly as sketchy as hollywood physics? Good to know.
I was going to bring up defense costs, but the forum ate my post about it. I do know that a lot of malpractice cases are settled because the value of the settlement is determined to be less than the cost of a trial. I knew a dentist or oral surgeon who was really scared of malpractice suits because of the damage a settlement would do to his reputation.
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2012-08-09, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
Well, my reasoning was that if Mr Incredible had not been involved they would not have been in danger of death. However, McStabbington's analysis convinced me that my reasoning was faulty and wrong. While he might be a lawyer, I am definitely not.
So Hollywood law is nearly as sketchy as hollywood physics? Good to know.
I was going to bring up defense costs, but the forum ate my post about it. I do know that a lot of malpractice cases are settled because the value of the settlement is determined to be less than the cost of a trial. I knew a dentist or oral surgeon who was really scared of malpractice suits because of the damage a settlement would do to his reputation.
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2012-08-09, 12:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Pixar's Incredibles: Syndrome is the true hero?
This is why Hank Pym is still a superhero while Syndrome never was. Hank takes responsibility for his actions in every situation and genuinely attempts to both atone and make up for his missteps off the path of righteousness. In addition to the aforementioned incidents, he also created one of the marvel universe's most dangerous robot villains (ultron). But the fact that he attempts to both fix what is wrong with himself and make the world a better place is what makes him a hero, flaws and all.
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