Getting Into Gaming

[Zevox]

Persona 4 is also known as the most cheerful game about murder known to man.

Oh, I don't know. The Phoenix Wright games might it beat in that regard.

Zevox

[Ogremindes]

I'll second Persona 3 and 4, If you don't mind not having any choices to make. Well-written with some great characters and imaginative designs. Persona 4 is also known as the most cheerful game about murder known to man.

Bear in mind that the Persona games aren't exactly forgiving. Like most Shin Megami Tensei games, when you screw up you screw up bad. P4 isn't quite so bad in that regard, but if you can still easily leave yourself with an bad elemental weakness if you're not paying attention, and if that happens you can be one ambush away from game over.

That said, P3 (I prefer FES to P3P) and P4 are two of my top games of all time. P4 is a better game, but I like P3 better from the general feel of the game.

[Zevox]

Bear in mind that the Persona games aren't exactly forgiving. Like most Shin Megami Tensei games, when you screw up you screw up bad. P4 isn't quite so bad in that regard, but if you can still easily leave yourself with an bad elemental weakness if you're not paying attention, and if that happens you can be one ambush away from game over.

Compared to most other Atlus games though, they're not bad. P3 can be rough early on, but once you get the hang of things, you should be fine for the most part. And if you're really worried about the difficulty, there's always the easy mode, though you do have to pick your difficulty at the start, as it's impossible to change mid-game.

This is actually one area where picking up Persona 3 Portable instead of FES may be a good idea though, as a few things about that version can make it easier, including an additional difficulty below the old easy mode, just in case you're really that concerned about the difficulty.

Zevox

[TheLaughingMan]

*snip*

I just happen to also find it the best.

Now now, no need to get out of sorts. The real argument here is that though it might be good on its own merits, it's not exactly the proper game to introduce someone to FF. You said yourself it was perhaps the largest departure in the series, no?

As far as FFs go, I'd heartily recommend Final Fantasy VI. It's probably the least polarizing game in the series (and considering which series we're talking about, that's a pretty high mark), and in general manages to pull of a good FFVII styled plot without getting all... Matrix-y. Both translations (SNES and GBA) are good in their own right, but if she likes quirky writing try for the SNES version, which you can find on the Wii Virtual Console if need be.

If she ends up liking Final Fantasy Tactics (A/A2), you might want to see if she'd like Final Fantasy XII, as it has the same setting and is rather entertaining in its own right (what with being Fantasy Star Wars and all that). As a word of caution though, tell her to hold out until Balthier steps into the picture, as the game really starts picking up then.

[Logic]

If she ends up liking Final Fantasy Tactics (A/A2), you might want to see if she'd like Final Fantasy XII, as it has the same setting and is rather entertaining in its own right (what with being Fantasy Star Wars and all that). As a word of caution though, tell her to hold out until Balthier steps into the picture, as the game really starts picking up then.

Personal preference here, but the only Final Fantasy games I happened to like were set in Ivalice. That being said, I still was unable to finish FFXII. It was too long, the gameplay was little better than the "side by side" fighting mechanic of the previous games, the protagonist was pointless and annoying, and I was unable to connect with even the "good" characters.

IMHO, FFXII is still the best of the numbered FF games. It was just still too JRPG for my tastes.

[RagingKrikkit]

Later on when choosing Ashley over Kaidan I still felt the crushing weight of responsibility and couldn’t silence that nagging voice of “Did I do the right thing?” But that’s the point isn’t it? That in life those big decisions are turning points in who we are, and we have to have the grace to carry on, believing that we made the best decision that we could. No regrets. Whoa, did I just learn something from a game?!

[off topic]Wow, somebody actually went with Ashley? I swear, just about everybody nukes her.[/off topic]

[Logic]

[off topic]Wow, somebody actually went with Ashley? I swear, just about everybody nukes her.[/off topic]

I saved Ashley, and I honestly thought my gaming group were off their collective rockers for saving Kaiden instead. Now I find I'm in the minority on the internet too? STRANGE THINGS are afoot.

[Triscuitable]

I saved Ashley, and I honestly thought my gaming group were off their collective rockers for saving Kaiden instead. Now I find I'm in the minority on the internet too? STRANGE THINGS are afoot.

People hate how she had a drastic character change from a racist "yessir" type soldier who believes she's the righteous one to a girl with armor that shows off her boobs, lets down her hair, and generally changes her entire appearance and personality from "racist unlikable and mean" to "sex appeal sex appeal sex appeal".

[Zevox]

[off topic]Wow, somebody actually went with Ashley? I swear, just about everybody nukes her.[/off topic]

I thought it was the opposite - Kaiden was so boring that practically everyone nuked him and saved Ash.

Zevox

[Cespenar]

Looking at the story-based preference, I can't reiterate The Longest Journey and its sequel, Dreamfall enough.

[Grif]

[off topic]Wow, somebody actually went with Ashley? I swear, just about everybody nukes her.[/off topic]

How dare you slander my Ash like that?

[Triscuitable]

I'm going to say that The Elder Scrolls: Arena and The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall are now freeware, and can be downloaded from the official site. You just need to follow the DOSBox guides they include.

DISCLAIMER: TES: ARENA CONTAINS NO ARENAS. LIKEWISE, TES: DAGGERFALL CONTAINS NO FALLING DAGGERS.

EDIT: Just noticed you live in Tacoma. I'm waving at your ambiguous location from Seattle.

[Terraoblivion]

That wasn't the argument that was made and I commented on, LaughingMan. That was just someone insisting that the game sucked and should not be played without giving a reason why. I mostly just presented why I think it was good to try and say something constructive. The tone was basically just there to preempt the tendency for some people to attack it at the slightest mention.

In any case, I don't think you can really pick any game as representative of what FF is. Only in the SNES and PSX era did they really have that kind of stability and that was not only more than a decade ago, it also lasted for a shorter period than the time from X until today. Really you'd have to play a ton of very long games to get a feel for what FF is as a whole, or you should just pick games you think sound good and for that XIII would be my recommendation. Especially for a newcomer who cares about story.

[RagingKrikkit]

How dare you slander my Ash like that?

I meant that with disgust, that was irritation, not slander.

[Triaxx]

For a hard core, dyed in the wool gamer, running a marathon of a series (OOT, MM, WW, TP) is nothing special. We do that all the time. For someone just getting into gaming, it might be a little too... much. I mean, even I start to glaze over as I make the transition from MM to WW. I start to feel that this is all there is to gaming and it feels boring. But cleansing the palette with a different genre is nice.

I mean, from Mass Effect you could have gone into something heavier on the RPG elements, or heavier on the action elements. So AC was a good choice. Now given it's nature as a stealth action game, you could jump from it to something like Metal Gear Solid and have different but similar gameplay. And then do Mass Effect 2, and follow it with something like Dragon Age. (Just an example).

Personally, I'd go from AC into Mass Effect 2, and then see about something that's more space combat. My personal recommendation would be the X series.

So, I have to ask and it's not for the stereotypical reasons, but how do you feel about Sims? Do you enjoy it, but feel there's in sufficient pain and suffering involved? Or perhaps wish to generate ever greater works of art? If so, try out Dwarf Fortress. It's Fun. Usually...

[Calemyr]

People hate how she had a drastic character change from a racist "yessir" type soldier who believes she's the righteous one to a girl with armor that shows off her boobs, lets down her hair, and generally changes her entire appearance and personality from "racist unlikable and mean" to "sex appeal sex appeal sex appeal".

Yes. She's always been given extremely unflattering and only tangentially accurate labels. The fans are consistent about that.

She was never racist, she was nationalist - and she was right. The Council does EXACTLY what she says for the exact reasons she says it - the salarians look after the salarians first, as do the asari and the turians and every other bloody race in the game, humans included. Also remember that she's spent her entire career being held in non-combat, human-only postings - the diversity of the Citadel came as a shock to her, but she also royally shuts down the human supremecists near the end of ME1.

And yes, she lets her hair down. Big deal. And yes, she's more attractive, with distinctive armor. So what? Everyone who makes a return gets a cosmetic overhaul in each game - better looking, more distinctive, more interesting. Kaiden gets the same bleeding treatment but nobody cares because he's Kaiden, the only soldier less distinctive than Jacob. Her personality hasn't changed, however - she's still the career military, family-and-country, loyalty-focused, poetry spouting grunt she always was. The only difference is that she was allowed to grow and mature, which apparently is a mortal sin when people didn't like you in the first place.

Now as I say this, I am not defending a character I really like. Ash is decent, but not even on my list of favorite characters (Tali, Mordin, Javik, Jack, and Wrex dominate that list). I just really don't think she's treated fairly. And to be perfectly frank, I feel that the primary reason for that is her statement that she's Christian - not that she feels you should be or that it makes her better, just that this is what she believes. It's amazing how quickly and violently an "open" mind can snap closed at the thought that someone could believe in God.

[Zevox]

And to be perfectly frank, I feel that the primary reason for that is her statement that she's Christian - not that she feels you should be or that it makes her better, just that this is what she believes. It's amazing how quickly and violently an "open" mind can snap closed at the thought that someone could believe in God.

I find that a bit hard to believe. Considering the vast majority of players themselves are, simply statistically speaking, probably Christians, I don't think that explains the reactions to her. And I know for a fact that not all atheist players had an adverse reaction to her religiosity, as I am one myself. Heck, she only even mentions her religious beliefs once, in the first game, and doesn't really say anything more than that she has them. Before she makes that remark and reveals that being religious is much less common in the ME time period than it is now, in fact, nothing has been said about human religion in the setting, so most people would probably have assumed by default that it resembled current human religion, with most people believing in one or another to some degree.

I think the impression of racism people got from her was by far more responsible for it. That's a matter that would be far more likely to trigger such reactions in a large chunk of people than her barely-mentioned religious belief.

Zevox

[Calemyr]

I find that a bit hard to believe. Considering the vast majority of players themselves are, simply statistically speaking, probably Christians, I don't think that explains the reactions to her. And I know for a fact that not all atheist players had an adverse reaction to her religiosity, as I am one myself. Heck, she only even mentions her religious beliefs once, in the first game, and doesn't really say anything more than that she has them. Before she makes that remark and reveals that being religious is much less common in the ME time period than it is now, in fact, nothing has been said about human religion in the setting, so most people would probably have assumed by default that it resembled current human religion, with most people believing in one or another to some degree.

I think the impression of racism people got from her was by far more responsible for it. That's a matter that would be far more likely to trigger such reactions in a large chunk of people than her barely-mentioned religious belief.

Zevox

The majority play no part on the internet. It's a question of who can state their opinion the most often and the most loudly.

And I agree with you that it's a ridiculously minor reference. I do ask you, though, how exactly do you explain the phrase "believes she's the righteous one", otherwise? Where does "righteousness" play into her character? Confidence? Yes. Competence? Yes. Righteousness? I don't see it.

When the game came out the anti-Ash crowd frequently painted her as an off the wall religious fanatic for mentioning that she believed her father was in heaven. It was included in every tirade against her that I read until ME2, when they decided she was simply canine.

[TaRix]

Character control and other choices, hmmm? Hmm.

I'll add my vote for Deus Ex, then. The game allows for very distinct playstyles and allows for several different ways through to your goal. One of the nicer bits is that your choices of action aren't just limited to dialogue trees or kill/don't kill such-and-such NPC, and you face the consequences for them. Also, it's a nice way to dabble with FPS-style controls and mechanics without being squashed if you happen to push the wrong button. (Though the guns-blazing player might find it hard to withstand several bullets, and the hide-and-regenerate idea hadn't been thought up yet.)

For that "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood" feel, oftentimes you just need to add a countdown timer, figuratively or literally. The DS title Devil Survivor works fairly well here; most of your actions advance the game clock and you're painfully aware of when the main event occurs (killing pretty much everyone). Much of the game's about how you choose to deal with the quarantine of sorts you're in and who you please in doing so. The rest is about fighting with demons (alongside and against) and working to make your team, well, survivable. The game might be considered horror, but it's mostly suspense and the "no one's helping you out of THIS one" feeling; I don't recall graphic blood'n'gore.

Another RPG with pretty expansive customization and some deeper themes is veteran indie developer Spiderweb Software's Geneforge. Choices range from building a character to fit your playstyle to dealing with the various factions in the world. Everyone's neither spotless nor black, so you're tempted to opt NOT to join anyone (which is also an option!). It's got a fairly simple turn-based battle interface that might seem familiar to D&D players while being accessible to old and new gamers. Designer Vogel also goes by the older shareware model, so you can download for free and play through the first chapter or two for nothing.
Similar games with multiple ways around or through trouble include Fallouts I, II, and maybe III, and Wasteland, the game which inspired the Fallout series.

Catherine came to mind, but I haven't played it myself, so someone else will need to offer an opinion.

Anyways, if this is what you're looking for, this is what came to mind. Let us know if we're on the right track.

[Koury]

Spoiler

Show

I think you might be doing gaming a disservice by not experiencing the phenomenons, even if they are bad, just so you can understand what the hype is about.

So, without further ado, I recommend you add just about anything from the Madden series. Not because it is actually good, but to see a different type of game than you might otherwise be used to and how stagnation can create a horrible monster.

World of Warcraft is the reigning king of MMOs, but one need not play this game specifically to get the references, a certain episode of South Park can probably fill you in on most of the relevant things this game has contributed to the genre. (Though I admit, I am highly biased, I did not care for WoW at all.)

Diablo 2 should be on a must play list. There is a reason that "Diablo-clone" became a genre all on its own.

Portal and Portal 2 are wonderful games that nearly anyone can enjoy, and they set the bar higher for humor than any other game in recent memory.

Super Smash Brothers (any variation will suffice) is a rabid cult classic. I personally don't care too much for the game, but it can be fun to sit with 3 of your best mates bludgeoning each other with hammers and baseball bats.

Bioshock or if you prefer, System Shock 2 contributed the exact same thing to their genre, one was just newer and prettier.

Planescape Torment for the rich RPG that it is.

Gears of War multiplayer, though watching Youtube videos of matches may be enough to understand its contribution to the medium.

Red Dead Redemption Who doesn't love a spaghetti western? (Note, Undead Nightmare is only for those that enjoy the main game, or Zombies.

Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 Another set of Valve titles, these should definitely be on a must play list.

Civilization or the simpler Civilization: Revolution may suffice if Alpha Centauri is not played instead.

The Sims Chances are, you know exactly what this game is and is about. If not, it is worth a small fraction of your time to find out.

EDIT: I don't think most of the games on this list are bad, but some are, and all are a cult classic or a cultural powerhouse.

While I believe your point valid, it is importiant to show her the huge influences in gaming, I think its better off happening later in the trip. For now, I think it's more importiant to focus on more story/narritive heavy games (though I might try to sneak Portal in there sometime soon).

Kaiden v Ashley

Obviously I knew as we started playing the game that this decision was coming. I was even more interested in what her choice would be because Ashley was in her standard party (Liara being the other choice) and I didn't think she'd want to lose her but she was also doggedly persuing Kaiden in an effort to unlock the Paramour achievement (she does enjoy trying to get the achievements, but only goes for the fun sounding ones. She didn't want to play the game 42 times to get all of them of anything). I honestly thought she would end up blowing up Ashley.

Where to begin in Final Fantasy, and why!

As far as this whole thing goes, I've narrowed down the entry point to either X or XII (with an outside shot at XIII). What will be the deciding factor in the end? I plan on synopsizing them for her and doing something crazy like letting her choose which one sounds the most interesting.

Of those two(/three), feel free to say your piece on where and why we should start (keeping in mind that and Final Fantasy game will be a few games down the line).

As far as my reasons for thinking that these are the best entrys, well, heres a little story from last night. SHeRUBI comes over and decides she wants to play some Civ 4 tonight. We begin talking about Final Fantasy somehow or another and I ask her how importiant graphics are to her. She asks what I mean and i tell her, for example, FF VII is extreamly dated now, visually. I pull up a youtube clip of the very begining of the game up to the first boss fight and she has two reactions.

One, the poor graphics are detracting from the game to her and two, Barret is clearly voiced by Samuel L Jackson.

So yeah. We will need a very strong story to make up for bad graphical shortcomings, I would say. Not sure exactly where the line is (FF VII is doubleplus ungood after all), but it does exist.

[Terraoblivion]

X vs XII is an interesting case. X is probably the more focused and accessible game, with much more time spent on plot and character. On the other hand XII is far more polished in terms of audiovisual presentation and controls, it's just also rather complex in bad ways at times and really could use a few pointers on what pacing is. I like XII a lot more, but I came into it with something like 18 years of experience with gaming and I still frequently found myself referring to guides or trying to figure out how everything fit together. It also does have long stretches basically without plot in the second half. Still, a lot of cool stuff can be done if you're willing to invest the time in learning how to really play with the gambit system and how to utilize the spells and skills you get. Also, when the plot is there it is quite good, just like the setting.

My personal recommendation would honestly be XIII. While it is the hardest of the three, the underlying principles for how to play and succeed are simple to grasp even if perfecting their use is still challenging and forces you to adapt. The focus in the narrative is also something I consider a strength as it keeps you invested and doesn't really raise questions about why you're running around doing something random while supposedly having to hurry to stop the plans of the villain. Basically, the strengths of the game are of the kind that seem to lend themselves well to being an entry point for new players. At least if said players have a good reaction speed as timing of paradigm shifts ends up having to be very precise by the end.

Also worth noting because it was important to me at least, XII (if you ignore the red herring of Vaan) and XIII have quite cool female protagonists in Ashe and Lightning. XIII is good with having cool, competent female characters to relate to, while XII unfortunately just kind of stops with Ashe. It might not be important for you, SHeRUBI, but I know it was for both me and my girlfriend, so it might be relevant for you as well.

And it doesn't really surprise me about FF VII, early 3D really does show how dated a game is far more than sprites of the same age. It did advance quickly, though. Just look at the improvement from VII to VIII and from VIII to IX.

[TheLaughingMan]

X vs XII is an interesting case. X is probably the more focused and accessible game, with much more time spent on plot and character. On the other hand XII is far more polished in terms of audiovisual presentation and controls, it's just also rather complex in bad ways at times and really could use a few pointers on what pacing is. I like XII a lot more, but I came into it with something like 18 years of experience with gaming and I still frequently found myself referring to guides or trying to figure out how everything fit together. It also does have long stretches basically without plot in the second half. Still, a lot of cool stuff can be done if you're willing to invest the time in learning how to really play with the gambit system and how to utilize the spells and skills you get. Also, when the plot is there it is quite good, just like the setting.

As much as I utterly loathe the game, she's probably better off trying X first, as it might just be the easiest game in the series. If she can handle a good deal of complexity, though, then by all means just skip it and go to XII.

Also worth noting because it was important to me at least, XII (if you ignore the red herring of Vaan) and XIII have quite cool female protagonists in Ashe and Lightning. XIII is good with having cool, competent female characters to relate to, while XII unfortunately just kind of stops with Ashe. It might not be important for you, SHeRUBI, but I know it was for both me and my girlfriend, so it might be relevant for you as well.

Actually, from what I can remember, XIII's female cast is made up of both previously established female FF arch-types or reformatted male arch-types. We have Vanille, who was basically the game's Selphie/Aerith/Rikku, Lightning as Female Cloud (or alternatively, Female Squall Paine), Fang as... Female Kain(?), and that one enemy chick as The Baroness. I can concede with Fang, but otherwise you get the point. They're cool and relatable because most of them have had years to ferment and some of the rest spent previous games as dudes. There's nothing really new brought to the table. But I digress.

At this point I would plug VI again for having both its leads as strong female characters (and indeed some of FF's first!), but if that's out of the running then I guess it doesn't matter.

[Terraoblivion]

Actually, from what I can remember, XIII's female cast is made up of both previously established female FF arch-types or reformatted male arch-types. We have Vanille, who was basically the game's Selphie/Aerith/Rikku, Lightning as Female Cloud (or alternatively, Female Squall Paine), Fang as... Female Kain(?), and that one enemy chick as The Baroness. I can concede with Fang, but otherwise you get the point. They're cool and relatable because most of them have had years to ferment and some of the rest spent previous games as dudes. There's nothing really new brought to the table. But I digress.

I'd say they aren't that simple. Vanille is a deliberate invocation of that archetype to screw with the audience, for example. Also, is it just me forgetting what FF VII was like, but wasn't Aeris rather different from the other two, even with the outgoing and playful aspects people tend to forget.

And apart from physical appearance I can't really see many similarities between snarky, hardworking Lightning who had to grow up too fast and goofy show-off Cloud, but she's hardly an emo with a memory of swiss cheese like Squall either. She's more like an angry young man raging against heaven, really, except for the motherly side she does have.

I'll definitely agree that Jihl brings nothing new to the table, but she's hardly a major character. Really, only the party and Barty are all that significant and the latter is intentionally made alien and hard to truly understand.

[TheLaughingMan]

I'd say they aren't that simple. Vanille is a deliberate invocation of that archetype to screw with the audience, for example. Also, is it just me forgetting what FF VII was like, but wasn't Aeris rather different from the other two, even with the outgoing and playful aspects people tend to forget.

That bolded part is basically the huge deal with Aerith's character. But that was later in the game and closer to the scene (if not the scene itself), so I don't blame you for not recalling. In an ironic twist for our conversation, Rikku and Selphie also messed with their arch-type in a few ways too, but specifics escape me. In fact, you could say subverting the arch-type is part of the arch-type nowadays.

And apart from physical appearance I can't really see many similarities between snarky, hardworking Lightning who had to grow up too fast and goofy show-off Cloud, but she's hardly an emo with a memory of swiss cheese like Squall either. She's more like an angry young man raging against heaven, really, except for the motherly side she does have.

I admit I could have been clearer here. While Square has referred to Lightning as Female Cloud, I think they refer to AdventChildren!Cloud or KingdomHearts!Cloud. Basically, Cloud after they watered down all of his traits to a simplified version of his endgame self, which resembles Lightning far more than pre-reveal Cloud. And I was actually referring to Paine there (a FF X-2 man character), despite my sarcasm.

[Logic]

EDIT: Just noticed you live in Tacoma. I'm waving at your ambiguous location from Seattle.

Then I am waving at you from a nondescript location as well! *cough*Boeing*cough*

[Terraoblivion]

That bolded part is basically the huge deal with Aerith's character. But that was later in the game and closer to the scene (if not the scene itself), so I don't blame you for not recalling. In an ironic twist for our conversation, Rikku and Selphie also messed with their arch-type in a few ways too, but specifics escape me. In fact, you could say subverting the arch-type is part of the arch-type nowadays.

Actually, who didn't subvert it? Only name that springs to mind is Penelo, but she doesn't get enough lines to be it and what lines she gets makes her come off more like the responsible big sister archetype and long-suffering girlfriend anyway. I can't really think of anybody in IX or VI who fits either and can't remember IV and V well enough to tell. Seems like they just take a spin on it every time. I'd still say that Aeris doesn't really fit at all and with Vanille it is a deliberate deception rather than just taking a spin on it.

I admit I could have been clearer here. While Square has referred to Lightning as Female Cloud, I think they refer to AdventChildren!Cloud or KingdomHearts!Cloud. Basically, Cloud after they watered down all of his traits to a simplified version of his endgame self, which resembles Lightning far more than pre-reveal Cloud. And I was actually referring to Paine there (a FF X-2 man character), despite my sarcasm.

Paine comes off more like the dark but safe member of an idol group. Lightning on the other hand has serious issues, even during flashbacks, and her overcoming them is probably the biggest subplot in the entire game. There is also the maternal side and the sense of responsibility in her mundane life which are important to who she is, even if she's not exactly great at expressing them. They share the badass, obviously, but beyond that I'd say that what they're going for is substantially different. Also she doesn't angst, whenever things gets too much for her she acts whether her plans are a good idea or not, which is a pretty big departure from the broody, flanderized version of Cloud. And again, having internal issues she's wrestling with and which are clearly shown as flaws rather than something to make her come off attractive and fixable is different, than just being vaguely angsty. Vengeance isn't exactly a major motivation either.

[Mando Knight]

Actually, who didn't subvert it? Only name that springs to mind is Penelo, but she doesn't get enough lines to be it and what lines she gets makes her come off more like the responsible big sister archetype and long-suffering girlfriend anyway. I can't really think of anybody in IX or VI who fits either and can't remember IV and V well enough to tell. Seems like they just take a spin on it every time. I'd still say that Aeris doesn't really fit at all and with Vanille it is a deliberate deception rather than just taking a spin on it.

You're talking about the "protagonist's girlfriend who specializes in white/healing magic" archetype, right? Rosa (FFIV) plays it completely straight: she became a White Mage to support Cecil and needs to be rescued a couple of times (almost exactly twice, IIRC). On the other hand, she also can be a competent archer and is the better of the two dedicated White Mages (and the only endgame White Mage in the releases that aren't the GBA version).

Of the endgame party, she's developed about the second-least, but then again, even Kain and Rydia only get like half the development that Cecil does. She doesn't deal damage, but her healing capability is a force multiplier... without it, I don't know if it's possible to beat the game.

[Terraoblivion]

You're talking about the "protagonist's girlfriend who specializes in white/healing magic" archetype, right? Rosa (FFIV) plays it completely straight: she became a White Mage to support Cecil and needs to be rescued a couple of times (almost exactly twice, IIRC). On the other hand, she also can be a competent archer and is the better of the two dedicated White Mages (and the only endgame White Mage in the releases that aren't the GBA version).

Of the endgame party, she's developed about the second-least, but then again, even Kain and Rydia only get like half the development that Cecil does. She doesn't deal damage, but her healing capability is a force multiplier... without it, I don't know if it's possible to beat the game.

Actually, no. The archetype seems to be the cheerful teenage girl, given how the initial examples Vanille was compared to included Rikku and Selphie.

[Triscuitable]

Then I am waving at you from a nondescript location as well! *cough*Boeing*cough*

We should meet up in Bellvue sometime to go visit the Valve HQ.

[Logic]

We should meet up in Bellvue sometime to go visit the Valve HQ.

Wow, I am behind in my gamer knowledge, I had no idea Valve was headquartered so close.