D&D 3.5 Wizard VS Classic Dr. Strange

[noob]

So any item who can be made by a god is not an artefact since a mortal can make an ice assassin of a god and since gods get the ability to create artefacts(written in gods and demigods) then there is no artefacts?(since anything a god can make can be made by a mortal who makes an ice assassin of that god)
I guess that means that artefacts is a non issue since they do not exists due to their definition and the ability of gods to make any artefact and the ability of mortals to make copies of gods.

[ColorBlindNinja]

D&D's definition of artifact is quite widespread actually. "Any magic item that is beyond mortals to make" sums it up. I assure you, there's plenty of fiction that could fit, including that of Strange himself.

I was referring to the its interaction with AMFs.

It really doesn't matter that much if we assume that Dr. Strange's gear are D&D artifacts or not.

[Psyren]

So any item who can be made by a god is not an artefact since a mortal can make an ice assassin of a god and since gods get the ability to create artefacts(written in gods and demigods) then there is no artefacts?

You're affirming the consequent here. What if the real answer to your hypothetical is that ice assassins of gods are actually not possible? It's commonly brought up as a TO exercise, but we have no record of any printed wizard actually doing it.

I was referring to the its interaction with AMFs.

I'm aware.

It really doesn't matter that much if we assume that Dr. Strange's gear are D&D artifacts or not.

The text of AMF seems to differ.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're affirming the consequent here. What if the real answer to your hypothetical is that ice assassins of gods are actually not possible? It's commonly brought up as a TO exercise, but we have no record of any printed wizard actually doing it.

That's irrelevant. We'd have to throw out half the rules if we only accepted printed material.

[Psyren]

That's irrelevant. We'd have to throw out half the rules if we only accepted printed material.

But if you allow homebrew then no contest has meaning.

[Florian]

So any item who can be made by a god is not an artefact since a mortal can make an ice assassin of a god and since gods get the ability to create artefacts(written in gods and demigods) then there is no artefacts?(since anything a god can make can be made by a mortal who makes an ice assassin of that god)
I guess that means that artefacts is a non issue since they do not exists due to their definition and the ability of gods to make any artefact and the ability of mortals to make copies of gods.

Who cares about Ice Assassin? You mention that spell outside theoretical discussions, you ether get a fist to your face or get thrown out of your group, easy as that.

[noob]

Well ice assassins of gods from the manual gods and demigods is definitively possible: they are creatures and they never got any immunity to that spell nor anything suggesting that this spell would not work on them.

"Who cares about Ice Assassin? You mention that spell outside theoretical discussions, you ether get a fist to your face or get thrown out of your group, easy as that. "
well the thread creator did allow TO as long as it was not directly pun pun and beyond.
to quote:

Assume TO for the wizard, anything short of Pun Pun and literal godhood is acceptable (Ice Assassins of gods are fair game ).

[Tainted_Scholar]

The text of AMF seems to differ.

I'm pretty sure he meant it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

[ColorBlindNinja]

But if you allow homebrew then no contest has meaning.

I can only assume I misunderstood what you meant by "printed material". Could you clarify?

I'm pretty sure he meant it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

This is correct.

[Florian]

I'm pretty sure he meant it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

No. AMF just deals with the "small fry" and can't affect the "major league". Go from there.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No. AMF just deals with the "small fry" and can't affect the "major league". Go from there.

Whether or not AMF works doesn't really matter. The Wizard can still win by snipping from her Demi-Plane.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No. AMF just deals with the "small fry" and can't affect the "major league". Go from there.

This is incorrect. AMF can effect epic magic, and it and the dispel magic line are the only spells that explicitly do not work against gods and artifacts. There's also Identify and Co, but meh.

[Psyren]

I can only assume I misunderstood what you meant by "printed material". Could you clarify?

3.5 D&D rulebooks. You said "3.5 wizard" correct?

[ColorBlindNinja]

3.5 D&D rulebooks. You said "3.5 wizard" correct?

In that case it's more of an implication than Ice Assassin coming out and saying that you can create god duplicates. The spell lists no limits, unlike Simulacrum.

[Florian]

Whether or not AMF works doesn't really matter. The Wizard can still win by snipping from her Demi-Plane.

And no. The Wizard simply dies, accelerated with a no-time demi-plane. That´s simply the way it is.

[ColorBlindNinja]

And no. The Wizard simply dies, accelerated with a no-time demi-plane. That´s simply the way it is.

Can you prove that?

[Psyren]

In that case it's more of an implication than Ice Assassin coming out and saying that you can create god duplicates. The spell lists no limits, unlike Simulacrum.

I'm not saying it's totally impossible, just that noob was arguing incorrectly. "I am a mortal who can make Ice Assassins of gods and gods can make artifacts, therefore artifacts aren't real" is faulty logic. There are several places that particular train can go off the rails.

[Tainted_Scholar]

And no. The Wizard simply dies, accelerated with a no-time demi-plane. That´s simply the way it is.

What the Hickel is a No-Time Demi-Plane? Where did it come from? Why is affecting the Wizard? What's stop the Wizard from just plane shifting away to her own demi-plane?

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm not saying it's totally impossible, just that noob was arguing incorrectly. "I am a mortal who can make Ice Assassins of gods and gods can make artifacts, therefore artifacts aren't real" is faulty logic. There are several places that particular train can go off the rails.

I would agree with that assessment.

Worth noting, having Ice Assassin gods make artifacts for you could be useful, as artifacts can mimic epic spells.

[Florian]

Can you prove that?

Sure. But first read up on the Psychic Duel rules I mention, then we can talk details.

What the Hickel is a No-Time Demi-Plane? Where did it come from? Why is affecting the Wizard? What's stop the Wizard from just plane shifting away to her own demi-plane?

Weird. I´m a Fighter guy and have to hand out tips what a Wizard can do. The gist is to create your own demi-plane with the no-time planar trait, so no time passes and your buffs never run out. You use Astral Projection in this state to be where the action is.

[Psyren]

I would agree with that assessment.

Worth noting, having Ice Assassin gods make artifacts for you could be useful, as artifacts can mimic epic spells.

It's just as valid logic to conclude that either (a) Ice Assassin gods are actually impossible (a debate this thread has precluded temporarily) or (b) that Ice Assassins of gods can't actually make artifacts. Or some other conclusion that upholds the RAW that artifacts are beyond the means of any mortal to make.

[Tainted_Scholar]

Weird. I´m a Fighter guy and have to hand out tips what a Wizard can do. The gist is to create your own demi-plane with the no-time planar trait, so no time passes and your buffs never run out. You use Astral Projection in this state to be where the action is.

But I'm not talking about a No-Time demi-plane. I'm talking about an infinitely fast time demi-plane. The Wizard can just use Love's Pain to attack Strange with infinite actions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sure. But first read up on the Psychic Duel rules I mention, then we can talk details.

How are PF rules relevant in this battle? Dr. Strange is a comic book character.

Psychic Duels are supernatural, and thus wouldn't bypass and AMF. Also, the wizard would simply retreat to her demi plane before Strange could act. No duel would take place and, the wizard would simply use the Love's Pain Mind Rape combo to kill him.

It's just as valid logic to conclude that either (a) Ice Assassin gods are actually impossible (a debate this thread has precluded temporarily) or (b) that Ice Assassins of gods can't actually make artifacts. Or some other conclusion that upholds the RAW that artifacts are beyond the means of any mortal to make.

Why? Ice Assassins of gods are still gods. They're the ones creating the artifact, not you.

[Tainted_Scholar]

It's just as valid logic to conclude that either (a) Ice Assassin gods are actually impossible (a debate this thread has precluded temporarily) or (b) that Ice Assassins of gods can't actually make artifacts. Or some other conclusion that upholds the RAW that artifacts are beyond the means of any mortal to make.

The Ice Assassin would have the necessary feat to create an Artifact, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to. Also the mortal isn't creating the Artifact, the Ice Assassin is.

[Florian]

But I'm not talking about a No-Time demi-plane. I'm talking about an infinitely fast time demi-plane. The Wizard can just use Love's Pain to attack Strange with infinite actions.

No, he can´t. First, there´s no "infinitely fast time" planar trait, so you´ve got to house-rule than and how it interacts, second you´ve gotta actually be there to cast that spell, as it requires LoS/LoE.

[Psyren]

The Ice Assassin would have the necessary feat to create an Artifact, so there's no reason why it wouldn't be able to. Also the mortal isn't creating the Artifact, the Ice Assassin is.

I think you mean Salient Divine Ability. Also that would be indirect creation by the mortal since the Ice Assassin wouldn't do so on its own.

Regardless, we've covered Ice Assassin itself (you can clone Strange but the clone wouldn't be Sorcerer Supreme), AMF (Strange has artifacts) and Dweomer (Strange has magic that doesn't come from his spells, for example the aforementioned artifacts.) What else you got?

[Florian]

What else you got?

Nothing besides wanting the Wizard to be OP. Pathetic.

[Tainted_Scholar]

No, he can´t. First, there´s no "infinitely fast time" planar trait, so you´ve got to house-rule

No it isn't a house rule. I can decide the speed of the time flow, and there's not limitations on how fast I can make it.

second you´ve gotta actually be there to cast that spell, as it requires LoS/LoE.

I'm not casting Love's Pain on Strange, I'm casting it one the oustider I bound and mind raped to love Strange.

I think you mean Salient Divine Ability. Also that would be indirect creation by the mortal since the Ice Assassin wouldn't do so on its own.

Huh?

Look the reason mortals can't create artifacts is because they can't qualify for the ability that creates Artifacts.

What else you got?

Snipping him with Love's Pain from a Demi-Plane.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I think you mean Salient Divine Ability. Also that would be indirect creation by the mortal since the Ice Assassin wouldn't do so on its own.

I think this is just semantics, but this argument is going nowhere, so I'll drop it.

Regardless, we've covered Ice Assassin itself (you can clone Strange but the clone wouldn't be Sorcerer Supreme), AMF (Strange has artifacts) and Dweomer (Strange has magic that doesn't come from his spells, for example the aforementioned artifacts.) What else you got?

- With Hide Life (Eschew Materials to bypass the component) the wizard can't die. Add in Favor of the Martyr to bypass the staggered side effect Hide Life may bring.

- The wizard can attack from a fast flowing demi plane with almost zero risk to herself.

- Kissed by the Ages (cast by an Ice Assassin) means the wizard can't die of old age.

-Forced Dream + Teleport Through Time allows the wizard to erase her timeline to prevent Terminator style time travel shenanigans.

That's not including other spells like Mind Blank, Ghost Form, Death Ward, ect.

Edit: Toss in Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity for good measure. They combo beautifully with Hide Life.

[Psyren]

Snipping him with Love's Pain from a Demi-Plane.

Who would qualify? And being immune to damage is trivial for both parties.

- With Hide Life (Eschew Materials to bypass the component) the wizard can't die. Add in Favor of the Martyr to bypass the staggered side effect Hide Life may bring.

There are a ton of fates worse than death as any wizard would know. Dropping you off in the Far Realm without your powers for instance.

- The wizard can attack from a fast flowing demi plane with almost zero risk to herself.

More on this later (see below)

- Kissed by the Ages (cast by an Ice Assassin) means the wizard can't die of old age.

Ok.

-Forced Dream + Teleport Through Time allows the wizard to erase her timeline to prevent Terminator style time travel shenanigans.

Putting the obvious paradox aside, wouldn't that just erase the fact that you teleported through time?

That's not including other spells like Mind Blank, Ghost Form, Death Ward, ect.

Every last one of these has holes and/or is dispellable.


On the fast time demiplane stuff: that tactic really only works if your foe is on the material themselves. Strange is constantly astral projecting (Astral is timeless, so no amount of time ratio will beat it), and even if he weren't, his sanctum is on multiple planes at once too, including several with fast time traits of their own.