RWBY VIII: Well, THAT escalated quickly

[LaZodiac]

That's just it though, I didn't have a problem with the introductory trailers and they didn't feel...'busy'. I might be phrasing it wrong cause I liked the extra details they throw in to explain stuff...dunno when it comes to action, it all seems to just turn into a blur of lines. I think it might just be the art style the mangaka uses...it does feel a lot like Claymore now that someone reminded me of it but it doesn't feel quite as clean.

I have noticed the psychotic look thing a bit...and its very off-putting, especially combined with the somewhat alien way he does faces. I mean Yang I can kinda see (psychotic is close to angry I guess) but for Ruby its just strange.

The action in the manga doesn't resemble Claymore at all, and not just because it's clean. And for what it's worth, a lot of the combat in RWBY feels to me like the manga RWBY feels to you. It's cluttered and bad. It's definitely a case of the mangaka's art style, and I'm not the biggest fan of it (the Yang chapter takes place in a perfectly blank void, for example) but I think it's better than the show.

I personally feel it makes as much sense with Ruby as it does with Yang. Ruby as a young girl was in a village that was attacked by Grimm and Qrowe killed some in front of her. She's also presented as a weirdo who has trouble interacting with people, so having her be a little offputting helps deliver that feeling. It also hints at the idea of her bloodlust for battle, in a fight she looks a little deranged, because she's letting that strange part of herself out.

Yang's super mode is meant to be her just flipping the hell out, so her looking psychotic there makes perfect sense.

[Metahuman1]

The colour of Spring is green and Summer is pink (or vice versa I don't remember) according to official videos. So while it'd be interesting, they'd also be going against their own canon on that...not that that's any different from normal here.

Also "interesting subversion of expectations" would be me being right and Roman being the true mastermind

Or maybe your right and the Silver eyes thing is she's part Grim?



Now that I think about it though, Weiss's arc seems to involve defrosting the ice queen, as the saying goes, maybe Ruby has Winter power and Weiss lands spring, just to surprise everyone?

[LaZodiac]

Or maybe your right and the Silver eyes thing is she's part Grim?



Now that I think about it though, Weiss's arc seems to involve defrosting the ice queen, as the saying goes, maybe Ruby has Winter power and Weiss lands spring, just to surprise everyone?

I think it's more a sing of relation to Grimm, myself.

[Callos_DeTerran]

The action in the manga doesn't resemble Claymore at all, and not just because it's clean. And for what it's worth, a lot of the combat in RWBY feels to me like the manga RWBY feels to you. It's cluttered and bad. It's definitely a case of the mangaka's art style, and I'm not the biggest fan of it (the Yang chapter takes place in a perfectly blank void, for example) but I think it's better than the show.

I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

And that's fair, your opinion is yours.

I personally feel it makes as much sense with Ruby as it does with Yang. Ruby as a young girl was in a village that was attacked by Grimm and Qrowe killed some in front of her. She's also presented as a weirdo who has trouble interacting with people, so having her be a little offputting helps deliver that feeling. It also hints at the idea of her bloodlust for battle, in a fight she looks a little deranged, because she's letting that strange part of herself out.

Yang's super mode is meant to be her just flipping the hell out, so her looking psychotic there makes perfect sense.

Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.

[LaZodiac]

I should clarify, I didn't mean the action in the manga resembles Claymore, I meant the art style reminds me of Claymore. ...I miss Claymore.

And that's fair, your opinion is yours.

Is...that how Ruby is presented in the manga? Cause...its not quite the case in the show. If so, than cool different continuities and what not, but Ruby from the show isn't portrayed the same way. Just awkward and in a new school ahead of schedule (giving her nerves about being perceived as 'special') and without her previous support system (she's actually peeved that she had to leave her friends from Signal behind when she went to Beacon, so she had friends before). Or particularly bloodthirsty though I can see that interpretation on occasion. Hey Zodiac, you've read the full manga then, right? How different is it storywise and characterization wise from the show?

I don't think Yang being psychotic makes a whole ton of sense cause...she is never portrayed as being psychotic, just angry. She doesn't try to draw a fight out or go out of the way to make her opponent suffer, she just puts an end to the fight as quickly as possible. Heck, about half the time we see Yang use her Semblance she's actually calmer than she is without it, going into more of a Tranquil Fury. The other times is when her hair is messed with, which is played for laugh, and when Adam did that terrible thing to Blake which is...understandable.

Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

Yeah, to each their own/

To clarify, all the series does is present her as a normal girl, who when she actually battles seriously, gets this dead eye star that goes a thousand miles, and smiles widely in a way that looks just a bit too wide. They show us her backstory, but they don't say confirmed 100% that she's broken. Her nerves could be from the fact that she's damaged inside, or just because she's nervous, or both. They show her hugging her comfort blanket esque cap when she's allowed to attach it to her uniform so your guess is as good as mine. The point is they raise a question.

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.

[Rawhide]

...Also, I tried to read the RWBY manga but something is really off-putting about it and I can't really put my finger on it. The art and dialogue just feels very...busy, like there's too much going on at once.

Back when I had to determine if the link posted to the manga was legitimate (spoiler: it wasn't, so I had to remove it), I read the first issue of the manga. I couldn't understand a thing that was going on.

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman

Uhha, a Legitimate Businessman™, *nod*nod*.

[LaZodiac]

Uhha, a Legitimate Businessman™, *nod*nod*.

I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.

[Lord Raziere]

Hint hint....somebody who has connections to underground stuff, mooks with things like rocket-hammers, two female fighters who don't seem particularly connected to the Huntresses, is supposed to be a place where you go for shady info, which Yang says is on the bad side of town.....probably not all that legit. and considering Ruby's reaction to all this is on the lines of "hey sis!" as she walks out....doesn't seem all that abnormal for Yang.

I think Yang is just supposed to be the Han Solo to Ruby's Luke, while also being a protagonist who enjoys a fight. if thats psychotic, then most action anime protagonists are psychotic as well.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Missing Claymore is legit it owned. Read Angel Densetsu, it's by the same mangaka.

Ohhh, kay. What's Angel Densetsu about?

Yang gets told "no" by a legitimate businessman and her response it to beat the **** out of literally everyone in the room. That's psychotic. That isn't heroic. In the original trailer she just LEAVES after this, too. At least the manga shows her staying to patch up everyone's wounds and buying a drink to apologize.

That is...one version of events, haha.

[Lethologica]

Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.

[LaZodiac]

Ohhh, kay. What's Angel Densetsu about?

That is...one version of events, haha.

There was once a man with the heart of a sweet innocent child, but with the face of a raging demon. This is his story, his Angel Densetsu.

Yang clearly didn't kill Junior, or the girl who staggered off screen before Junior came out with his rocket. I suspect she didn't kill anyone, since this is RWBY. She did engage in a lot of unprovoked violence, though.

My exaggeration aside the manga does show Junior and his buddies in bandages, and we have no reason to assume any of those mooks had aura given Jaune didn't have it and they were wielding axes that had "weapon" written on them as opposed to any actual weapons. She at least HURT them. It was definitely unprovoked violence and that was my point.

[Rawhide]

I mean if you ignore his side business of selling mooks to people, he has a legitimate bar and dance club. Yang went to his club, demanded some info. He said no, and that he doesn't serve kids, which is fine, and also legal. She KILLED EVERYONE.

Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

Junior is not a legitimate businessman. The club is nothing but a front, and it's clear that illegal transactions were taking place between Junior and his clients in Junior's club, that makes the business itself illegitimate (so you can't even claim the business was a legitimate arm, even if everything else he did wasn't - before you factor in that he is almost certainly laundering the money from his other side projects through the club).

That is...one version of events, haha.

This.

[LaZodiac]

Your ability to twist the truth never ceases to amaze me.

Yipes, that's...a little harsh.

I mean he still actually serves drinks and stuff right? It's a villain bar and he does illegal stuff but does that really make the legal stuff he do illegal by connection?

[Rawhide]

Yipes, that's...a little harsh.

I mean he still actually serves drinks and stuff right? It's a villain bar and he does illegal stuff but does that really make the legal stuff he do illegal by connection?

In the eyes of the law, it doesn't matter how much legal stuff you try to bury your practices with, if a business exists solely to facilitate illegitimate business practices, that business is going to get shut down along with all of the other operations if discovered.

It doesn't matter if you legally sell drinks at a bar, if the sole purpose of that is to cover the tracks of your illegal side businesses.

It doesn't matter if you provide legitimate entertainment, if the business is being used to launder money (an extremely likely possibility).

Selling a drink = legal. Using the business as a front for crime = not.

[LaZodiac]

That's fair. To each their own. My understanding was that it was less he was using the bar as a cover, and more that he was just doing the illegal stuff as a side job and his actual job was the bar.

[Rawhide]

That's fair. To each their own. My understanding was that it was less he was using the bar as a cover, and more that he was just doing the illegal stuff as a side job and his actual job was the bar.

He made the illegal transactions in the club. That much is clear.

How deep it goes... well... probably much further.

[Lord Raziere]

I mean he still actually serves drinks and stuff right? It's a villain bar and he does illegal stuff but does that really make the legal stuff he do illegal by connection?

No, but things like illegality and evil are a weight. you do bad things, doing random good or normal deeds doesn't lighten the load, it just means your aware enough to know these acts are bad yet allow yourself to be weighed down by this stuff anyways and thus get dragged down into it.

something legal is normal, not-notable, not a thing compared to that. They have no weight. Because your supposed to do those things, you don't get rewards or get out of jail free cards just because your a murderer but run a shipping company. And if the legal stuff is just a front for your other illegal business, then its a lie thats apart of the operation, and therefore apart of an active effort to subvert the law.

[LaZodiac]

He made the illegal transactions in the club. That much is clear.

How deep it goes... well... probably much further.

I mean he's supposed to be some big bad along with the baddies, him and his two identical character reject body guards show up in the villain line up of the opening. They don't ever a do anything and they are far more polite with Yang when she shows up again (partly due to her violent tendencies) so I wouldn't say they're really all that bad. Maybe on Roman's level, which yes is bad to the degree of helping a maniac destroy the world, but I don't imagine he'd stay on that side if it started going bad for business.

[Lethologica]

I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)

[Metahuman1]

I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)

Because as presented by Zodi at the start of the line of conversation, Jr. does nothing bad ever at all period. Punching him out is literally the same as just walking down a random sidewalk and beating up random people on the same side walk as you cross paths with them, which is not viable.




As for beating the crap out of Jr., one viable possibility is that she's asserting dominance. Look at the Marvel Netflicks series, particularly Daredevil season 1 and Luke Cage. Look at the organized crime/gang characters. What do the lions share of them acknowledge/respect/fear/respond too? Especially at lower levels as opposed to the tops like Diamond Back/Fisk/what's-her-face-the-council-woman/Madam Gao/Noobu?

Violence. Effective violence. Willingness to use said effective violence. Power that is greater then themselves. Willingness to use that power. And a willingness and ability to use all of this to impose your will and desires on them.

It's how the higher level guys keep the lower level one's in check, on task, obedient, and motivated. because when dealing with that kind of person, it's what get's the job done. It's what get's results reliably. It's one of if not the only thing that does when it get's right down too it.


So she used the trick that has a documented real world history of working for millennia more often than not assuming you have the means to pull it off.

She clobbers all of them. She does it almost effortlessly, seeming to get a kick out of it the whole time. She does not kill them. She get's what she can of what she wanted, allowance being made since at the end of the day Jr. didn't actually know what she wanted to know, buys a drink, and patches them up and leaves.

And look how much less she had to do to get relevant information out of him the next time there paths crossed? He was snarky but compliant after she forced her way inside, and his men didn't even bother trying to fight her off this time.





And that's not even counting the fact that the shape of Jr. and his men post fight was meant to be an old style visual gage. You'd see it in Loony Toons or Vaudeville comedy acts a fair bit.




But take heart, at the rate the series is going as of end of last season, Yang will really be a full blown permanently mentally and emotionally broken psychopath with at least borderline sociopathy going on by the end of the show's run. *goes and cries in the corner over what could have been but probably won't cause we needed to be darker and edgier cause that never backfires #sarcasumsothickyoucancutitwithaknife.*

[Rawhide]

I don't understand why the legality is important here. Nothing about the bar's relationship with the law changes the ethical calculus of Yang's actions significantly. Junior's a seedy b***ard who employs a bunch of seedy b***ards who help out with crimes and also run a nightclub, and they still didn't do anything to provoke violence from Yang until she visited violence on them. Yang as portrayed in the trailer is a wild woman who wanted the fight at least as much as she wanted the information. (How closely you link that to Yang's portrayal in the series proper is another story--the trailers are, after all, excuses to fight.)

Basically this:

Because as presented by Zodi at the start of the line of conversation, Jr. does nothing bad ever at all period. Punching him out is literally the same as just walking down a random sidewalk and beating up random people on the same side walk as you cross paths with them, which is not viable.


As for beating the crap out of Jr., one viable possibility is that she's asserting dominance. Look at the Marvel Netflicks series, particularly Daredevil season 1 and Luke Cage. Look at the organized crime/gang characters. What do the lions share of them acknowledge/respect/fear/respond too? Especially at lower levels as opposed to the tops like Diamond Back/Fisk/what's-her-face-the-council-woman/Madam Gao/Noobu?

Violence. Effective violence. Willingness to use said effective violence. Power that is greater then themselves. Willingness to use that power. And a willingness and ability to use all of this to impose your will and desires on them.

It's how the higher level guys keep the lower level one's in check, on task, obedient, and motivated. because when dealing with that kind of person, it's what get's the job done. It's what get's results reliably. It's one of if not the only thing that does when it get's right down too it.


So she used the trick that has a documented real world history of working for millennia more often than not assuming you have the means to pull it off.

She clobbers all of them. She does it almost effortlessly, seeming to get a kick out of it the whole time. She does not kill them. She get's what she can of what she wanted, allowance being made since at the end of the day Jr. didn't actually know what she wanted to know, buys a drink, and patches them up and leaves.

And look how much less she had to do to get relevant information out of him the next time there paths crossed? He was snarky but compliant after she forced her way inside, and his men didn't even bother trying to fight her off this time.



And that's not even counting the fact that the shape of Jr. and his men post fight was meant to be an old style visual gage. You'd see it in Loony Toons or Vaudeville comedy acts a fair bit.

Also, after what Yang did to extract information from Junior, do you really think he was going to let her out of there without a fight? Han Yang shot first.

[Metahuman1]

Heck, he even told her she'd pay for that!

[LaZodiac]

Heck, he even told her she'd pay for that!

Really? I don't remember that like...at all.

[Rawhide]

Really? I don't remember that like...at all.

Yup, really. Right after she'd squeezed Junior for information.

[Lethologica]

Basically this:



Also, after what Yang did to extract information from Junior, do you really think he was going to let her out of there without a fight? Han Yang shot first.

You saw a cool calculation to cultivate the criminal community for future information gathering? Gosh, that's really not the portrayal I saw.

And yes, after what Yang did, she could expect a fight. Which is why I say she visited the violence on them. It's not even like Junior had refused to provide information before Yang took a handful. That was her option #1.

[Metahuman1]

Who said it had to be a cool calculation? When Fisk was going scary man mode or Diamond Back or Cotten Mouth were going full thug, did they strike you as cool and calculated? Sure didn't hit me that way.


It doesn't have to be cool and calculated. some people have a good instinct for that sort of thing. and some just have the benefit of experience and/or a little tutoring form a somewhat mystery shrouded uncle who comes across as someone who's been around shifty types and at least told story's in the past.

[Lethologica]

I don't regard the dominance assertion as 'good' by any meaning of the term, whether instinct or calculation or whatever you choose to call it. She came in and started an unnecessary and pointless fight at the first opportunity and didn't get a single step closer to her goal. That's not morally good (though it's not clearly morally bad), and it's not competent underworld navigation, and it's not good for her search. That this conveniently became relevant a season and a half down the line doesn't change the approach taken in the trailer.

[Rawhide]

You saw a cool calculation to cultivate the criminal community for future information gathering?

No. Neither of us said that.

[Lord Raziere]

You saw a cool calculation to cultivate the criminal community for future information gathering? Gosh, that's really not the portrayal I saw.

Well no, but it doesn't take book smarts and lots of fancy education and masterminding to do this stuff-only street smarts and the pragmatism to go through with it. Just because Yang isn't a nerd, doesn't mean she can't be smart or have methods of info gathering that aren't what introverted analytical people would think of. If she developed her charm more she could've probably got what she wanted without a single fist thrown by just sweet-talking them, but then when she came around again, they'd assume her weak and she would've had to do the sweet talking routine all over again instead of cutting to the chase, or have to beat them up THEN.

[Metahuman1]

Precisely. One short brawl, a few Band-Aids and bruises needed afterword's, and now, whenever she comes to see Jr. for info, his goons will just get the hell out of her path, and he will just cough up what he knows with only minor verbal prodding. Possibly for the rest of there mutual lifespans and if not then certainly for years to come.

And as icing on the cake, she can make it clear to him that this stays between them, which he'd likely honor, cause huntress or not, it's in his own best interest not to admit he got owned along with his whole crew by a 17 year old girl half his size, and certainly not that she can get info form him whenever the urge hits her cause he doesn't want her to break him permanently next time.

And it benefits her to do this cause this way, she can get information quietly after this one incident for long time to come. Always good to not let others know what Intel you might have.


And good doesn't always mean shining paladin morality. Good can also mean skillful, or just flat effective or beneficial. Thus, good.