Dreamscarred Press - Path of War Expanded! (Thread VII)

[angelpalm]

If you don't meet a requirement to craft an item it increases the DC by +5 for each requirement that you don't meet. This can add up quickly. In addition, you cannot craft Scrolls, Wands or Staves (any spell completion item really) without having a caster level. No, you can't fudge it. But Mystic Artifice lets you fudge having a caster level. So Mystics can be as good at crafting as wizards and other true spellcasters, despite not being able to cast spells.

It's the same with the Vizier.

Another question in regards to the Zealot. Can they use their Martyrdom class feature to redirect damage from their self......sigh.......to their self, and then I guess get a better version of the elans racial ability as a free action every round. I know in a vitalist case, they are always counted as a member of their own collective but how would this work in regards to something like this? Kinda like the share pain/vigor combo except you don't have to actually do anything to get it and it effects everything eventually, not just hp damage.

[ANSeranov]

Another question in regards to the Zealot. Can they use their Martyrdom class feature to redirect damage from their self......sigh.......to their self, and then I guess get a better version of the elans racial ability as a free action every round. I know in a vitalist case, they are always counted as a member of their own collective but how would this work in regards to something like this? Kinda like the share pain/vigor combo except you don't have to actually do anything to get it and it effects everything eventually, not just hp damage.

I asked about using Martyrdom on yourself, and I believe it was Chris who said that no, you can't use Martyrdom to mitigate damage you personally take.

[ATalsen]

If i take a martial tradition, can I apply it to more than one class? For example a base class and then Mage Hunter, What about for unorthodox method?

This would be a good question to ask over on the PoW FAQ thread, but here's what I understand the answer to be:

If you trade out a Discipline (though martial tradition or trait), every instance of that discipline is traded out across all your classes and prestige classes.

For example, if you take Warlord (Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon) and then Mage Hunter (Scarlet Throne, Steel Serpent, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon disciplines), and decide to trade Scarlet Throne for Silver Crane via the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition, then Scarlet Throne is traded out for both Warlord and Mage Hunter, granting both classes access to Silver Crane maneuvers.

If instead you traded Golden Lion for Silver Crane, then only Warlord would have access to Silver Crane; Mage Hunter (which does not possess Golden Lion) would not gain Silver Crane access.


Now if you are wondering if you could "take the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition a second time" to apply it to one of the Mage Hunter disciplines separately, I don’t' know. I'd think the answer was no (because things you can take twice tend to say that explicitly), but it's probably in the realm of 'its up to your DM'.

[angelpalm]

I asked about using Martyrdom on yourself, and I believe it was Chris who said that no, you can't use Martyrdom to mitigate damage you personally take.

You have link to that conversation?

[Kaidinah]

This would be a good question to ask over on the PoW FAQ thread, but here's what I understand the answer to be:

If you trade out a Discipline (though martial tradition or trait), every instance of that discipline is traded out across all your classes and prestige classes.

For example, if you take Warlord (Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon) and then Mage Hunter (Scarlet Throne, Steel Serpent, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon disciplines), and decide to trade Scarlet Throne for Silver Crane via the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition, then Scarlet Throne is traded out for both Warlord and Mage Hunter, granting both classes access to Silver Crane maneuvers.

If instead you traded Golden Lion for Silver Crane, then only Warlord would have access to Silver Crane; Mage Hunter (which does not possess Golden Lion) would not gain Silver Crane access.


Now if you are wondering if you could "take the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition a second time" to apply it to one of the Mage Hunter disciplines separately, I don’t' know. I'd think the answer was no (because things you can take twice tend to say that explicitly), but it's probably in the realm of 'its up to your DM'.

This is a really good question. Kind of vital for all the prcs.

[Diagan]

Soo, idk if this has been answered in a previous thread or not, this hasn't been faq'd yet.

Can a character multiclassed in 2 martial class use one class's recovery mechanic to recover maneuvers granted by the other.

Example. A character with 16 Chr, 3 levels in Warlord and 5 levels in Zealot, using the Brave gambit to charge an enemy succeeds. Can he then recover one of his 3rd level maneuvers learned from the Zealot class, along with any his may have readied from his warlord levels?

I ask because only the acquisition of Initiator Levels in multiclassing are cover in the system and use page of the pfsrd.

[Forrestfire]

A multiclassed initiator has separate pools of readied maneuvers, and only recovers maneuvers from one class by using that class' recovery mechanism.

[Mithril Leaf]

Was there a conclusion reached for the stacking of size increases from Elemental Nimbus Earth and Armory of the Conqueror?

[Forrestfire]

Elemental Nimbus was initially written up with some confusion about how the FAQ Paizo released on size stacking worked; the size increase is just an effective size increase, and the parenthetical clarification causing the confusion will be removed in the final printing. It overlaps with, rather than stacking with Armory of the Conquerer.

[ANSeranov]

You have link to that conversation?

Checking my post history here (where it is conspicuously absent), I may have asked on 4chan, which would mean it's now lost to the ages.

I'm pretty positive it's confirmed not to work on the Zealot themselves, though.

[Mithril Leaf]

Quick question, the answer is probably yes, but I thought I'd make sure.

You can Wild Surge Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers right?

[angelpalm]

Checking my post history here (where it is conspicuously absent), I may have asked on 4chan, which would mean it's now lost to the ages.

I'm pretty positive it's confirmed not to work on the Zealot themselves, though.

Bleh, after an extensive search I found no response from anyone significant, just some nobody saying that it should be okay and a dev repeating the question because they themselves didn't know lol.

[Taveena]

Quick question, the answer is probably yes, but I thought I'd make sure.

You can Wild Surge Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers right?

I don't think the answer IS yes. They're maneuvers. They don't scale based on Manifester level in any way. Wild Surge wouldn't do anything unless it has specific wording to affect it.

[Novawurmson]

Checking my post history here (where it is conspicuously absent), I may have asked on 4chan, which would mean it's now lost to the ages.

I'm pretty positive it's confirmed not to work on the Zealot themselves, though.

This is correct. Martyrdom is only intended to work on other creatures.

Quick question, the answer is probably yes, but I thought I'd make sure.

You can Wild Surge Sleeping Goddess Maneuvers right?

By RAW no. The amount your Sleeping Goddess maneuvers can be augmented is based on your initiator level, not any manifester level you may have. Wild Surge increases your effective manifester level, not initiator level.

It'd be a cool feat/archetype/prestige class, etc., but that's not how it works baseline.

[amberlink]

This would be a good question to ask over on the PoW FAQ thread, but here's what I understand the answer to be:

If you trade out a Discipline (though martial tradition or trait), every instance of that discipline is traded out across all your classes and prestige classes.

For example, if you take Warlord (Golden Lion, Primal Fury, Scarlet Throne, Solar Wind, and Thrashing Dragon) and then Mage Hunter (Scarlet Throne, Steel Serpent, Solar Wind, and Veiled Moon disciplines), and decide to trade Scarlet Throne for Silver Crane via the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition, then Scarlet Throne is traded out for both Warlord and Mage Hunter, granting both classes access to Silver Crane maneuvers.

If instead you traded Golden Lion for Silver Crane, then only Warlord would have access to Silver Crane; Mage Hunter (which does not possess Golden Lion) would not gain Silver Crane access.


Now if you are wondering if you could "take the Empyreal Guardian Martial Tradition a second time" to apply it to one of the Mage Hunter disciplines separately, I don’t' know. I'd think the answer was no (because things you can take twice tend to say that explicitly), but it's probably in the realm of 'its up to your DM'.

The trading out the same disciplines for the same ones is what I meant yeah, though I'll ask over there for more confirmation sure

[charcoalninja]

Just note on Mystic Artiface. Yes, you don't have a requirement for say CL that's a +5 DC to craft the item, but more importantly you can't actually take any crafting feats without a caster level. So that's what Mystic Artiface especially does.

[Mithril Leaf]

By RAW no. The amount your Sleeping Goddess maneuvers can be augmented is based on your initiator level, not any manifester level you may have. Wild Surge increases your effective manifester level, not initiator level.

It'd be a cool feat/archetype/prestige class, etc., but that's not how it works baseline.

Yeah, looking at it that makes sense. Anyone know if there's any plans to allow the two to work together is some fashion? Maybe via Magic Item, like a sword of surges or something.

[angelpalm]

Just note on Mystic Artiface. Yes, you don't have a requirement for say CL that's a +5 DC to craft the item, but more importantly you can't actually take any crafting feats without a caster level. So that's what Mystic Artiface especially does.

Wait...wut?

Are you a dev on this? Because now I am confused, does this whole paragraph not apply anymore?

Animus (Su): A mystic’s martial prowess is in part fueled by a reservoir of roiling, turbulent energy within her soul, and the passion and danger of combat causes this arcane energy to overflow outwards. This power, called animus, waxes and wanes with a mystic’s use of her maneuvers in battle. Outside combat, a mystic has no animus to spend, but her inner power can still be used for more subtle arcane arts. Her levels in mystic count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of qualifying for prerequisites (such as those of item creation feats or the Arcane Strike feat), and if a mystic ever develops arcane spellcasting from another class, she may add her mystic level to her levels in that class to determine her overall caster level for the purposes of item creation feats.

[ATalsen]

Just note on Mystic Artiface. Yes, you don't have a requirement for say CL that's a +5 DC to craft the item, but more importantly you can't actually take any crafting feats without a caster level. So that's what Mystic Artiface especially does.

Wait...wut?
Are you a dev on this? Because now I am confused, does this whole paragraph not apply anymore?

Just a guess, but I think charcoalninja intends to indicate that Caster Level itself is not considered a "Prerequisite", thus not meeting minimum caster level does NOT impose a +5 to the DC.

(However, some items do include caster level as a prerequisite, such as Weapon and Armor where your caster level must be 3x the Plus of the item, but that’s called out specially as an *extra* prerequisite in the rules, thus it’s not assumed that Caster Level is normally a prerequisite in the sense that not having it will impose a +5 crafting DC).

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.

For the second part I think charcoalninja is saying that Mystic Artiface provides a caster level so that you may take crafting feats, since crafting feats do have a requirement of a caster level in order to take them…



And, in my own thoughts, since some items DO have a caster level requirement, having one from Mystic seems quite useful for crafting those types of items.

So I think you guys are actually in agreement :)

[angelpalm]

One of us is clearly stating that they believe you can't qualify for item creation feats without the mystic artifice class feature while the other quoted directly from the mystics doc showing how it gets a caster level from an entirely different class feature. How are we in agreement?

Nvm.....I already got my answer from an actual dev, just don't like people spreading miss information because it just makes my job as a DM that much more difficult.

[ATalsen]

How are we in agreement?

Sorry, I just thought you were both basically in agreement that the Mystic got a caster level, and that the caster level was useful for something.

I wasn't looking at the source of said caster level.

[twas_Brillig]

Am I missing something, or does learning a Sleeping Goddess maneuver automatically give you power points? I.e. is their subtlety to the language that means you need to wait to recover power points before you gain them from knowing a SG maneuver? As is, it looks like in some cases Aegii can use Augment Suit to pick up Initiator's Soul for free power points.

Nvm.....I already got my answer from an actual dev, just don't like people spreading miss information because it just makes my job as a DM that much more difficult.

For the sake of helping the inevitable future googlers, would you mind linking said dev ruling?

[Taveena]

Am I missing something, or does learning a Sleeping Goddess maneuver automatically give you power points? I.e. is their subtlety to the language that means you need to wait to recover power points before you gain them from knowing a SG maneuver? As is, it looks like in some cases Aegii can use Augment Suit to pick up Initiator's Soul for free power points.

I mean... yes, Sleeping Goddess explicitly gives you power points equal to the highest level Sleeping Goddess maneuver or stance you know, +1 for each Sleeping Goddess maneuver beyond that. An Aegis does indeed get power points if they presently know SG maneuvers.

[Galacktic]

Question about Advanced Study in general (also where is this Hunting Zephyr? I can't find it!)

I use a Warsoul, so up to 6th level maneuvers at max. If I use Advanced Study, would that allow me to learn maneuvers past that, since they only have requisites of initiator level and enough other maneuvers known? I'm going to assume no, but I wanted clarification.

[Vhaidara]

Question about Advanced Study in general (also where is this Hunting Zephyr? I can't find it!)

I use a Warsoul, so up to 6th level maneuvers at max. If I use Advanced Study, would that allow me to learn maneuvers past that, since they only have requisites of initiator level and enough other maneuvers known? I'm going to assume no, but I wanted clarification.

Hunting Zephyr is in Tempest Gale, level 7 Strike.

And Advanced Study has been called out as allowing you to ignore the table. Same thing for prestige classes. The table only limits your maneuvers gained from class levels.

[Elricaltovilla]

Question about Advanced Study in general (also where is this Hunting Zephyr? I can't find it!)

I use a Warsoul, so up to 6th level maneuvers at max. If I use Advanced Study, would that allow me to learn maneuvers past that, since they only have requisites of initiator level and enough other maneuvers known? I'm going to assume no, but I wanted clarification.

Both the Advanced Study feat and taking levels of Initiating Prestige Classes allow you to exceed the archetype's normal cap on highest level maneuver known.

[amberlink]

So looking at the Sleeping Goddess Empowerment...does anything that helps you learn higher blade skills improve its power? It seems to be one of the few blade skill that scale, so I was wondering if Fighter's Blade applied to it

In addition, looking at the Void Prophet, is it intended for them to still take the penalty for a collective member dying? And why does it say "her void prophet initiation modifier." Is it ever possible to end up with another initiation modifier? I know certain artchtypes can, just wondering if there's any other way. Also what happens if I took Vitalist and Zealot? How would the collective work? And what would happen if I was a Void Prophet Life Leech? Which unwilling participant would be used?

[angelpalm]

Am I missing something, or does learning a Sleeping Goddess maneuver automatically give you power points? I.e. is their subtlety to the language that means you need to wait to recover power points before you gain them from knowing a SG maneuver? As is, it looks like in some cases Aegii can use Augment Suit to pick up Initiator's Soul for free power points.



For the sake of helping the inevitable future googlers, would you mind linking said dev ruling?

Now that I go back and read it(page 5....) I am not so sure, there didn't really seem to be any clarification and to be honest caused me more confusion as to the purpose of Mystic artifice. Like I quoted, you get a caster level from the animus class feature and it specifically states that you can use that to qualify for feats and it stacks with actual caster levels.


It seems like mystic artifice lets you do the same thing, use your initiator modifier as caster levels when making items(like I said before, a lot of redundancy with this class) but it seems like you can also make spell completion/trigger items without knowing the spells. That last part seems to be the only actual benefit from that class feature since your caster level from animus and mystic artifice overlap and deal with needing minimum caster levels for items like an Amulet of Mighty Fists(which state you must have a caster level 3x what the bonus you are enchanting it with).

[Forrestfire]

Technically speaking, they do two different things. Animus gives you a caster level that allows you to take the feats you need:

Her levels in mystic count as arcane spellcaster levels for the purposes of qualifying for prerequisites (such as those of item creation feats or the Arcane Strike feat), and if a mystic ever develops arcane spellcasting from another class, she may add her mystic level to her levels in that class to determine her overall caster level for the purposes of item creation feats.

This is equal to your mystic level. You get this at 1st level, allowing you to grab item creation feats before Mystic Artifice comes online. What Mystic Artifice does is slightly different:

When crafting an item, the mystic uses her initiator level as her caster level to determine how potent a creation she can make. If her initiator level does not equal the minimum caster level to make the item, then she cannot create the item. When attempting to create a magical item for which she does not possess a prerequisite spell, the mystic can attempt to replicate the spell through her innate power with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the level of the spell being replicated). If successful, she can create the item as if she had cast the prerequisite spell.

Mystic Artifice does three important things:

1. You get a caster level equal to your initiator level for the purposes of crafting items. This isn't necessarily the same level as the one you got from Animus; it scales by IL, so if you PrC out or multiclass, you can still craft. However, you would lose scaling on your CL from Animus, since that one is based on mystic levels (which might make you unable to take later item creation feats you want).
2. When making an item using Mystic Artifice, you're limited to your CL, if the item has a minimum CL needed to make it (such as with a scroll, wand, staff, or magic weapon/armor). If you weren't, then you'd be able to use its spell-emulation abilities to do things like crafting wish scrolls the moment you hit level 4 by emulating the spell.
3. You can make a Spellcraft check (DC scaling from 15 to 24) to emulate a spell while crafting. This keeps the DC from increasing by 5 per prerequisite you don't have, because you emulated the spells to craft the item. It also lets you craft spell trigger and completion items, even though normally a noncasting crafter can't do that.

[angelpalm]

Technically speaking, they do two different things. Animus gives you a caster level that allows you to take the feats you need:



This is equal to your mystic level. You get this at 1st level, allowing you to grab item creation feats before Mystic Artifice comes online. What Mystic Artifice does is slightly different:



Mystic Artifice does three important things:

1. You get a caster level equal to your initiator level for the purposes of crafting items. This isn't necessarily the same level as the one you got from Animus; it scales by IL, so if you PrC out or multiclass, you can still craft. However, you would lose scaling on your CL from Animus, since that one is based on mystic levels (which might make you unable to take later item creation feats you want).
2. When making an item using Mystic Artifice, you're limited to your CL, if the item has a minimum CL needed to make it (such as with a scroll, wand, staff, or magic weapon/armor). If you weren't, then you'd be able to use its spell-emulation abilities to do things like crafting wish scrolls the moment you hit level 4 by emulating the spell.
3. You can make a Spellcraft check (DC scaling from 15 to 24) to emulate a spell while crafting. This keeps the DC from increasing by 5 per prerequisite you don't have, because you emulated the spells to craft the item. It also lets you craft spell trigger and completion items, even though normally a noncasting crafter can't do that.

Yeah I didn't think about the first part with multiclassing, that is a vary good point, but the second point kind of mixes in with the first one since it only seems to be useful if again, you multiclass out since you still get a caster level from animus........not sure why everyone seems so intent on explaining the base magic crafting rules though.