4e for 3.5 players?

[WarKitty]

Does anyone have or know about a good guide to 4e for 3.5 players? The most I've been able to find are options like this , which cover the basics but not some of the details that end up being important. The AC and to-hit numbers are easy enough to understand, but there seems to be no guide to stuff like what is a good AC, or whether to-hit feats are required and how many. The skill system is also kind of awkward for people used to 3.5 - again, the numbers are easy, but it's hard to gauge the value of skills and how much additional bonuses are worth. So if anyone has a good comprehensive guide to 4e that would be helpful.

Edit: Before it comes up, I'm not looking for which version is better/worse. Personally, I'm a diehard 3.5 player, but my group is playing 4e.

[Fallbot]

WotC have published a Player's Strategy Guide which includes all that information, but amazon tells me it's $20, and I can't see you paying that for a guide to a system you aren't fond of. Websitewise, I have no idea, sorry.

From the book;
Attack vs AC should be 6 + level
Attack vs other defenses should be 4 + level
AC should be 15+ level
Other defenses should be 13 + level

(It goes on to explain that it is expected for your stats to jump and plateau, and as long as you are within 1 or 2 points of the baseline then there will be no problems. More than three points out though, and things start to get wonky.)

Edit: Or look down to Mando's post. His is much more comprehensive.

[BlckDv]

As for skills, that will flux based on what version of errata your DM is using. If the DM does not mind, I'd simply ask to see the version of the DC by level he is using. If your Mod+10 is at or above the Moderate DC, it is competent, if it is at or above the Hard DC, it is very good.

The goal was that most PCs with training and an OK stat, or a good stat and some other bonus could hit Moderate reliably, while you'd need Training, a good stat, and some other bonus source (a feat, item, etc.) to hit Hard.

[Mando Knight]

Your defenses are fairly simple, starting at level 1, going very roughly:
Paladin-grade AC (the best without synergy from various stacking bonuses) is 19 + level (Plate and Heavy Shield, monster average against it is 30% accuracy)
Normal Defender AC is about 18 + level (just scale, or chain and light shield, etc., 45% monster accuracy)
High non-Defender AC is about 16 + level (scale, or hide and +4 bonus), same as many Defenders.
Moderate non-Defender AC is 15 + level (hide and +2 bonus, leather and +3 bonus)
Low non-Defender AC is 13 + level (cloth and +4 bonus, leather and +2, hide and +1, 60% monster accuracy)

Your NADs (Non-AC Defenses) generally fall under good, average, and bad scores. Most Defenders have NADs similar to their non-Defender buddies. Class and other miscellaneous bonuses may even out these NADs, or make one disproportionate to the others.
Your "Wait, a bonus to my attack stat's NAD? Really?" score can be 15 + level... or higher with a racial bonus. At this point, the DM just looks to attack you from a different angle.
Your good score is the one depending on your primary stat and is roughly 13 + level. Most monsters hit this on an 11, for 50% accuracy.
Your average score uses your secondary stat and is roughly 12 + level.
Your bad score uses whatever is left, and is roughly 10 + level... monsters get 60% accuracy.

Attack bonuses are divided into Implement and Weapon bonuses:
Very High weapon attack bonuses are +7 + level (hits average Soldier AC on an 9 for 60% accuracy, 70% against most others, 80% against Brutes)
High weapon attack bonuses are +6 + level (hits Soldier AC on a 10, 55% accuracy)
Standard weapon attack is +4 + level (hits Soldier AC on an 12, 45% accuracy)

Good implement attack bonuses are +3 + level (you're gunning for NADs, so you'll hit on an 9 for 60% accuracy on average)
Standard implement attack bonuses are +2 + level (55% accuracy)
Low implement attack bonuses are +1 + level (Many optimizers will question why you're even using an implement attack with this low of a bonus...)

To stay in these ranges, take one scaling feat (i.e. Weapon Expertise) each for your attack and NADs (there's a collective NAD-booster feat, so this should only cost you two feats), but their bonuses aren't as noticeable before level 11, so you have time to budget them in unless your numbers are chronically low otherwise. For your AC, take Masterwork armor when possible and boost your AC stat (Dex or Int, usually) also whenever possible if you're not using heavy armor. Note that a shield provides a bonus to your Reflex and AC, so if you need to boost both, they're a good place to start. For weapons, just pick one you like. You can trade some accuracy for damage if you wish.

Try to get the Big Three magic items (neck, armor, weapon/implement) to be at least within your enchantment bracket (+1 for 5 or lower, and an additional +1 at 6, 11, 16, etc.). If you're a double-dipper for your attacks (weapon and implement, two weapons, or you took Dual Implement Spellcaster and want to maximize your damage), pick a main item to keep at the normal pace, and boost your second item whenever you can without draining too many of your other resources.

As said above, you're fine if your numbers are off by a few from the averages given.

Most of these numbers go off of some assumptions for your ability scores at level 1:
Primary: 18 (20 is ridiculous and only recommended for classes that can cover their AC and don't have much use for any other stat. 16 is fine, and usually results from not picking a race with a boost to your primary... not recommended, but usually at least feasible.)
Secondary: 14-16 (dual 18s is great, but basically requires total mediocrity in the other scores. Which you usually don't need anyway. 18/16 usually results from having full racial synergy, such as a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer or a Genasi Swordmage. If you don't use your secondary stat much, a 13 or lower is fine.)
Tertiary: 14 at best (usually results from a 16/14/14 spread), 13 otherwise (since although 13 is an odd number, it may qualify you for some attractive feats)
Everything Else: 13 if you really want it, 10 or 12 if not, and 8 if you need to dump something (I hate dump stats, personally)

Average monster defenses and attacks are as follows:
Soldier AC: 16 + level
Average AC: 14 + level
Low AC: 12 + level
NADs: 12 + level
Attack vs AC: +5 + level
Attack vs NADs: +3 + level

Skill bonuses are harder to keep at X + level, though they start higher than attack bonuses. You'll usually have a few specializations, but here's how I see it (approximately, before any skill-boosting magic items you might find.):

+11 +½ level +1/tier or more: You're exceptional at the skill, a prodigy. Eladrin Wizards and Arcana, Halfling Rogues and Thievery... you're almost synonymous with the skill.
+9 +½ level +1/tier: You're very good at the skill... a specialist. You'll complete most tasks fairly easily.
+7 +½ level +1/tier: You're good at the skill. You might defer to a specialist to complete hard tasks, but you're sufficiently competent for most applications.
+5 +½ level, +1/tier: You're competent. You can usually complete most tasks, but you'll usually avoid harder ones unless necessary or failure isn't dangerous... you'll complete those maybe half the time.
+2 +½ level +1/tier: You're not trained, and you should usually think twice before trying a difficult task, but you're decent enough to try if needed.
+0 +½ level, +1 @ Epic: You're not good at this skill... not trained and not naturally good, either. You'll complete easy tasks often enough, but defer to someone better if possible for everything else.
-1 at 1st level: You dumped this stat. Do you really think you should try this?

[DrDeth]

Too late, wait until 5E, no use trying to change to 4th now. I am only sorta kidding.

Mando Knight, great post!

[Vknight]

5e won't be out for 1year, and that's for play testing it could show up as late as Christmas 2013 or summer 2014

[Aron Times]

I'm pretty sure the 5e police will confiscate your contraband 4e material, like the 4e police did with 3.5 material, and 3.5 police did with 3.0...

[Mando Knight]

I'm pretty sure the 5e police will confiscate your contraband 4e material, like the 4e police did with 3.5 material, and 3.5 police did with 3.0...

And Vecna did with AD&D 2nd...

[WarKitty]

Your defenses are fairly simple, starting at level 1, going very roughly:
Paladin-grade AC (the best without synergy from various stacking bonuses) is 20 + level (Plate and Heavy Shield, monster average against it is 30% accuracy)
Normal Defender AC is about 17 + level (just scale, or chain and light shield, etc., 45% monster accuracy)
High non-Defender AC is about 17 + level (scale, or hide and +4 bonus), same as many Defenders.
Moderate non-Defender AC is 15 + level (hide and +2 bonus, leather and +3 bonus)
Low non-Defender AC is 14 + level (cloth and +4 bonus, leather and +2, hide and +1, 60% monster accuracy)

Your NADs (Non-AC Defenses) generally fall under good, average, and bad scores. Most Defenders have NADs similar to their non-Defender buddies. Class and other miscellaneous bonuses may even out these NADs, or make one disproportionate to the others.
Your good score is the one depending on your primary stat and is roughly 14 + level. Most monsters hit this on an 11, for 50% accuracy.
Your average score uses your secondary stat and is roughly 13 + level.
Your bad score uses whatever is left, and is roughly 11 + level... monsters get 60% accuracy.

Attack bonuses are divided into Implement and Weapon bonuses:
Very High weapon attack bonuses are +8 + level (hits average Soldier AC on an 8 for 65% accuracy, 75% against most others, 85% against Brutes)
High weapon attack bonuses are +7 + level (hits Soldier AC on a 9, 60% accuracy)
Standard weapon attack is +5 + level (hits Soldier AC on an 11, 50% accuracy)

Good implement attack bonuses are +4 + level (you're gunning for NADs, so you'll hit on an 8 for 65% accuracy on average)
Standard implement attack bonuses are +3 + level (60% accuracy)
Low implement attack bonuses are +2 + level

To stay in these ranges, take one scaling feat (i.e. Weapon Expertise) each for your attack and NADs (there's a collective NAD-booster feat, so this should only cost you two feats), but their bonuses aren't as noticeable before level 11, so you have time to budget them in unless your numbers are chronically low otherwise. For your AC, take Masterwork armor when possible and boost your AC stat (Dex or Int, usually) also whenever possible if you're not using heavy armor. Note that a shield provides a bonus to your Reflex and AC, so if you need to boost both, they're a good place to start. For weapons, just pick one you like. You can trade some accuracy for damage if you wish.

Try to get the Big Three magic items (neck, armor, weapon/implement) to be at least within your enchantment bracket (+1 for 5 or lower, and an additional +1 at 6, 11, 16, etc.). If you're a double-dipper for your attacks (weapon and implement, two weapons, or you took Dual Implement Spellcaster and want to maximize your damage), pick a main item to keep at the normal pace, and boost your second item whenever you can without draining too many of your other resources.

As said above, you're fine if your numbers are off by a few from the averages given.

Most of these numbers go off of some assumptions for your ability scores at level 1:
Primary: 18 (20 is ridiculous and only recommended for classes that can cover their AC and don't have much use for any other stat. 16 is fine, and usually results from not picking a race with a boost to your primary... not recommended, but usually at least feasible.)
Secondary: 14-16 (dual 18s is great, but basically requires total mediocrity in the other scores. Which you usually don't need anyway. 18/16 usually results from having full racial synergy, such as a Dragonborn Dragon Magic Sorcerer or a Genasi Swordmage. If you don't use your secondary stat much, a 13 or lower is fine.)
Tertiary: 14 at best (usually results from a 16/14/14 spread), 13 otherwise (since although 13 is an odd number, it may qualify you for some attractive feats)
Everything Else: 13 if you really want it, 10 or 12 if not, and 8 if you need to dump something (I hate dump stats, personally)

Average monster defenses and attacks are as follows:
Soldier AC: 16 + level
Average AC: 14 + level
Low AC: 12 + level
NADs: 12 + level
Attack vs AC: +5 + level
Attack vs NADs: +3 + level

Skill bonuses are harder to keep at X + level, though they start higher than attack bonuses. You'll usually have a few specializations, but here's how I see it (approximately, before any skill-boosting magic items you might find.):

+11 +½ level +1/tier or more: You're exceptional at the skill, a prodigy. Eladrin Wizards and Arcana, Halfling Rogues and Thievery... you're almost synonymous with the skill.
+9 +½ level +1/tier: You're very good at the skill... a specialist. You'll complete most tasks fairly easily.
+7 +½ level +1/tier: You're good at the skill. You might defer to a specialist to complete hard tasks, but you're sufficiently competent for most applications.
+5 +½ level, +1/tier: You're competent. You can usually complete most tasks, but you'll usually avoid harder ones unless necessary or failure isn't dangerous... you'll complete those maybe half the time.
+2 +½ level +1/tier: You're not trained, and you should usually think twice before trying a difficult task, but you're decent enough to try if needed.
+0 +½ level, +1 @ Epic: You're not good at this skill... not trained and not naturally good, either. You'll complete easy tasks often enough, but defer to someone better if possible for everything else.
-1 at 1st level: You dumped this stat. Do you really think you should try this?

Nice post...that helps make a lot more sense of things. The AC/NAD difference is a big one, it's kind of hard to make the adjustment there. Though this is one place where I do like 4e making them work like AC instead of through saves.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok, I'm going to show my character's stats at 6th level at current (campaign has not yet started so I can edit it at anytime). He is a Mul Barbarian/Battlemid Hybrid. He is a Defender primarily and striker secondary. I'm going to base how good he is on Mando's guide he graciously posted. Note I used character builder so I'm not exactly sure where everything came from.

AC= 23 (10 + 9 (+2 Scalemail) + 3 (half level) +1 (Unkown)) should be 17+6=23 so all good here.
Fort= 19 (10 + 3 (Con bonus) + 3 (half level) + 2 (amulet of protection) + 1 (Hybrid Barbarian) should be 14+6=20 so I'm slightly behind but thats fine.
Ref= 13 (10 + 3 (half level)) should be 11+6=17 so I'm in bad shape there.
Will= 19 (10 + 3 (Wis bonus) + 3 (half level) + 2 (amulet of protection) + 1 (Hybrid Battlemind) should be 14+6=20 so I'm slightly behind again but thats fine.

He uses a +2 Halberd for all his powers and non-ranged attacks (I have no ranged powers except one which was ruled to use my Halberd based on how the power works, but I digress). He uses strength (15) and constitution (17) for all his attacks which means its either +7 or +8. Niether of which hit the "average" to hit of 5+6=11 so I'm not going to be hitting often it seems.

So playground, how can I increase my Ref (without stretching my stats, I can't really budge on my stats and both Int and Dex are 10s) as well as my attack bonus up +2 or +3. I've already spent my feats but I can reshuffle them. I'm fairly new to 4e and I thought that feats like [Weapon] expertise was just like those in 3.5, ie completly worthless. I seem to be wrong in this front. Any suggestions on how to make up for my shortcomings so far? Item's, feats, whatever?

[Kurald Galain]

So playground, how can I increase my Ref (without stretching my stats,

You really don't. Most characters in 4E have one week NAD, that's not a big deal. There's a few expensive items that boost it by +1, and an epic feat that gives +4.

I'm fairly new to 4e and I thought that feats like [Weapon] expertise was just like those in 3.5, ie completly worthless. I seem to be wrong in this front.

The +1 to damage feat is not very good unless you're a striker. The +1 to hit feat is good, but at low level getting a good "enabler" feat is generally better. An enabler feat lets you do something you otherwise couldn't (e.g. multiclass, polearm momentum, stuff like that), as opposed to making you 5% better at stuff you could already do.


For other tips, considering constitution appears to be your primary attribute, it should really be at 19-21 at level 6, not 17. Also, it's generally not a good idea to spread your attacks among two different attributes.

[Reluctance]

Ok, I'm going to show my character's stats at 6th level at current (campaign has not yet started so I can edit it at anytime). He is a Mul Barbarian/Battlemid Hybrid. He is a Defender primarily and striker secondary. I'm going to base how good he is on Mando's guide he graciously posted. Note I used character builder so I'm not exactly sure where everything came from.

...

I'm fairly new to 4e and I thought that feats like [Weapon] expertise was just like those in 3.5, ie completly worthless. I seem to be wrong in this front. Any suggestions on how to make up for my shortcomings so far? Item's, feats, whatever?

First, seeing the actual stats would be handy. I have a feeling you're making the classic newbie mistake of trying to spread yourself too thin. (The big hint here is the word "hybrid".)

Second, remember that weapons have a built-in bonus so long as you're proficient with them. I'm seeing +2 proficiency, +2 enchantment, +3 levels, +2/3 stat for a total of +9/10. Slightly below par, considering your stat spread and your lack of a +3 prof weapon, but nothing that'll kill you. At worst, skimping on other hit bonuses just means you'll want to take the appropriate expertise a little earlier than you otherwise might have.

[Mando Knight]

(Just realized all my numbers were off by one. They've been corrected, now. Forgot that level 1 adds 1 to the equations. )

As a Barbarian|Battlemind, I'd suggest switching your Strength and Wisdom so you have a better Barbarian attack stat. A Mul can go Str/Con, IIRC...

On the other hand, there's relatively little synergy between the two classes, particularly due to forcing you to split your attack stat and the Battlemind having no use for Strength outside of skill checks and qualifying for weapon feats.

Starting with a 14 in your striker side's attacking stat and taking a +2 proficiency weapon is practically unforgivable in terms of combat effectiveness. Although some Defenders, Leaders, and Controllers can get away without hitting quite reliably, a Striker's sole job is to deal damage, and if you're not hitting, you're not dealing enough damage.

[MesiDoomstalker]

First, seeing the actual stats would be handy. I have a feeling you're making the classic newbie mistake of trying to spread yourself too thin. (The big hint here is the word "hybrid".)

Second, remember that weapons have a built-in bonus so long as you're proficient with them. I'm seeing +2 proficiency, +2 enchantment, +3 levels, +2/3 stat for a total of +9/10. Slightly below par, considering your stat spread and your lack of a +3 prof weapon, but nothing that'll kill you. At worst, skimping on other hit bonuses just means you'll want to take the appropriate expertise a little earlier than you otherwise might have.

This is character first, a piece of a game second. I'd rather have a subpar character that I play true than optimized to high heaven that I wouldn't recgonize. This combination is the best fit I've found so far, and my friends and my DM's friends (all who now 4e far better than I) agree that this combination is the best representation of the character without making a whole homebrew class.

My current stats, using 32 point buy, 4th level stat bumps in Str and Con:

Strength: 15
Constitution: 16
Dexterity: 10
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 14

So, yes, my stats are a bit spread thin. I know my DM will be using a "more lenient" way of determing stats but she did not explain what that means so I'm using point buy as a place holder for the moment. Its possible she will give us 4d6, drop 1s and 2s and lowest die roll, which can give me great stats for all 4 of my main stats and not horrible stats for Int and Dex. Another array I was thinking of, using the same as above:

Strength: 16
Constitution: 18
Dexterity: 8
Intelligence: 10
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 13

I have a feat called "Battlewise" that replaces Dex with Wis for iniative, so dumping Dex is hardly an issue. I can drop off Charisma if I rearrange most of my powers and half my feats but its doable (but not preferable). Would dropping Charisma give me that much more?

You really don't. Most characters in 4E have one week NAD, that's not a big deal. There's a few expensive items that boost it by +1, and an epic feat that gives +4.


The +1 to damage feat is not very good unless you're a striker. The +1 to hit feat is good, but at low level getting a good "enabler" feat is generally better. An enabler feat lets you do something you otherwise couldn't (e.g. multiclass, polearm momentum, stuff like that), as opposed to making you 5% better at stuff you could already do.


For other tips, considering constitution appears to be your primary attribute, it should really be at 19-21 at level 6, not 17. Also, it's generally not a good idea to spread your attacks among two different attributes.

Unfortunatly, Hybriding works against me here since most of Barbarian's run off of Str and Battlemind runs off of Constitution. Luckily some secondary things from Barbarian runs off of Con, and both use Charisma to some degree. Wisdom is an important stat for both Battlemind and for the character concept.

On attack bonuses, I'm wearing Scalemail which I don't technically have proficiency in but my DM ok'ed me having proficiency without using a feat. I forgot about this and the builder automatically took off a -2 to attacks because of my lack of proficiency (according to the builder). So your calculations of my attacks are accurate and my offense bonuses aren't as bad as I thought.

I should mention my DM talked to me about possibly giving me an item that worked similar to Cloak of Charisma in 3.5 to allievate my MAD. She didn't elaborate nor confirm she would do this (she already planned of modding the hell out of all of us for a currently unkown reason) so I'm not going to bank on it and plan for the worst.

EDIT:

(Just realized all my numbers were off by one. They've been corrected, now. Forgot that level 1 adds 1 to the equations. )

As a Barbarian|Battlemind, I'd suggest switching your Strength and Wisdom so you have a better Barbarian attack stat. A Mul can go Str/Con, IIRC...

On the other hand, there's relatively little synergy between the two classes, particularly due to forcing you to split your attack stat and the Battlemind having no use for Strength outside of skill checks and qualifying for weapon feats.

Starting with a 14 in your striker side's attacking stat and taking a +2 proficiency weapon is practically unforgivable in terms of combat effectiveness. Although some Defenders, Leaders, and Controllers can get away without hitting quite reliably, a Striker's sole job is to deal damage, and if you're not hitting, you're not dealing enough damage.

I'm not a striker. I know this. My damage output will be subpar for a striker. I'm not worried because I know I'll have 2 other strikers played by players expierenced in 4e, striker's especially. So I'm not worried about dealing damage, I'm worried about activating secondary abilities of powers that only activate on a hit. I'll be using Battlemind powers primarily while my Barbarian powers are more focused on increasing my mobility. My job is to keep the heat off of those relativly squishy strikers and on me.

I'm somewhat confused on how multi-classing works in 4e. The main reason I chose barbarian was because it had many abilities that increased my movement or gave me extra movement, which is exactly what this character does. So can I multi-class into Barbarian, with Battlmind primarily, to pick up a few Barbarian movement-based powers? I'm rather confused on how it works honestly.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Multiclassing is a feat chain. There's your basic multiclass feat, found after the epic feats in the feat chapters. There's one for each class in the PHBs and extras in splatbooks (at least the Power ones). You can take extra feats (found in the PHBI multiclass feat section) to swap out powers for ones from the class you multiclassed into.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Multiclassing is a feat chain. There's your basic multiclass feat, found after the epic feats in the feat chapters. There's one for each class in the PHBs and extras in splatbooks (at least the Power ones). You can take extra feats (found in the PHBI multiclass feat section) to swap out powers for ones from the class you multiclassed into.

Soooo basically multiclassing is kinda expensive. You burn a feat just to replace a power? That just doesn't sound very useful to me. Unless you get tons of extra feats to burn.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Soooo basically multiclassing is kinda expensive. You burn a feat just to replace a power? That just doesn't sound very useful to me. Unless you get tons of extra feats to burn.

Well, feats aren't worth so much in 4e. Over twenty levels, you get 11 feats, as opposed to 3.5's 7 feats. You get four more, and there are four feats in the multiclassing chain. Although paragon multiclassing is weaker than a paragon path. The point of multiclassing is the flexibility, and the first feat in the chain is strictly better than Skill Training, although Skill Focus is rather subpar.

[INDYSTAR188]

Is it possible you could take a different weapon? Like Great Spear? Something with a +3 proficiency would be nice!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Is it possible you could take a different weapon? Like Great Spear? Something with a +3 proficiency would be nice!

Technically, I'm not even using a Halberd. I'm using a homebrew weapon who is almost identical to a Halberd but its a Chain instead of a Polearm. Otherwise, it's identical. It's basically a Battleaxe on the end of a length of chain. For sake of convience, I didn't explain the weapon as it wasn't too imporatant. Besides, Great Spear would require a feat, which a feat for a flat, non-scaling +1 to-hit. I'm better off just taking Weapon Focus, at least that scales with the tier.

EDIT: On multiclassing and feats, I can't take any Barbarian powers (or any other class power's for that matter) since Battlemind's don't have Encounter powers, they have Power Points. The Novice feat (the only one I can take at 6th) requires an encounter power to swap out, so I can't even take it.

EDIT the second:

You mean Weapon Expertise.

Yes. Remember, 4e newb. I assuemed they kept the same name for the same effect. If Expertise is the one that increases to-hit by tier, then yes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Technically, I'm not even using a Halberd. I'm using a homebrew weapon who is almost identical to a Halberd but its a Chain instead of a Polearm. Otherwise, it's identical. It's basically a Battleaxe on the end of a length of chain. For sake of convience, I didn't explain the weapon as it wasn't too imporatant. Besides, Great Spear would require a feat, which a feat for a flat, non-scaling +1 to-hit. I'm better off just taking Weapon Focus, at least that scales with the tier.

You mean Weapon Expertise.

[Kurald Galain]

EDIT: On multiclassing and feats, I can't take any Barbarian powers (or any other class power's for that matter) since Battlemind's don't have Encounter powers,

Yes, you can. There's special MC feats for psionic classes that cost you a few PP instead of an encounter power.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Yes, you can. There's special MC feats for psionic classes that cost you a few PP instead of an encounter power.

Interesting. But honstly the only one power that I desperatly want from Barbarian is Combat Sprint, which is a level 2 Utility, which means I need to wait till 8th level to take Acolyte to swap out my Utility.

I'm sorry if I'm being confusing or anything. 3.5 is my game, 4e is stranger to me than the subtlies of ancient Egyptian economics. I think I'll start my own thread for advice on this character that explains everything fully.

[Mando Knight]

I'm not a striker. I know this.

Then why did you hybridize with a Striker class?

The Battlemind has plenty of mobility options on its own, and if you're the group's Defender, then they'll be relying on you sticking to your opponent anyway since you can't trigger your mark retribution from halfway across the battlefield like the Swordmage can.

4e is stranger to me than the subtlies of ancient Egyptian economics.

It's not so hard... basic trade deals with surrounding tribes... the annual flooding of the Nile aids in irrigation and soil recycling and allows the Pharaoh to use the farmers as hired laborers for other projects...

[MesiDoomstalker]

Then why did you hybridize with a Striker class?

The Battlemind has plenty of mobility options on its own, and if you're the group's Defender, then they'll be relying on you sticking to your opponent anyway since you can't trigger your mark retribution from halfway across the battlefield like the Swordmage can.

It's not so hard... basic trade deals with surrounding tribes... the annual flooding of the Nile aids in irrigation and soil recycling and allows the Pharaoh to use the farmers as hired laborers for other projects...

Clarifcation: the point is that the enemies follow me and if I play him properly (which I probably will), the DM will make sure the enemies do. Granted it won't always work agianst enemies smart enough to know what I'm doing. I admit that this is a metagaming element that isn't reflected in the mechanics but this is the agreement me and my DM have come to. I won't always have enemies that follow me around like im Pied Piper but there will be enough of them to make it effective.

On hybriding with a striker, it was a suggestion to me (a newb to 4e) from my DM and others (4e veterans). I trusted their superior knowledge of the subject.

Also, I made a new thread specifaclly for this if we can switch this discussion over there. Link for those interested.

[WarKitty]

Suppose I can go ahead and post mine up, see what people think:

Str: 8
Con: 16
Dex: 10
Int: 14
Wis: 18
Cha: 12

That's for a shammy with the divine secretkeeper (invoker multiclass) at level 1. Other feat got burnt on training diplomacy, since we only have our bard half-time (co-DM situation) and I'm the only other one with a positive charisma score in the party. Since it's a big party (7 people) I've got a lot more freedom to specialize; my job description is "keep the bad guys away from the squishy strikers" with a secondary of "keep everyone breathing."

AC: 14
Fort: 15
Ref: 13
Will: 16

Leather armor, staff implement. Planning to do a skill focus on Insight next level because, hey, makes for more fun to mess with the other players. The biggest thing I could use now is how many feats I'll need to keep myself effective, and what feats are necessary by what levels. Would like to spend some more feats unlocking the social skills, but don't want to sacrifice my usefulness for them.

[Mando Knight]

Skill focus is a rather limited feat, and you already have a rather good Insight skill. I would recommend doing something about that AC, or possibly using that Focus on Diplomacy instead.

However, rather than just getting Skill Focus, you should look at other feats that grant bonuses to skills... they might be only a +2 feat bonus, but they also actually do something other than give you a flat bonus to a single skill.

[WarKitty]

Skill focus is a rather limited feat, and you already have a rather good Insight skill. I would recommend doing something about that AC, or possibly using that Focus on Diplomacy instead.

However, rather than just getting Skill Focus, you should look at other feats that grant bonuses to skills... they might be only a +2 feat bonus, but they also actually do something other than give you a flat bonus to a single skill.

From what I've found, the only thing I could do with my AC would be hafted defense. So that's one feat for a +1 AC and +1 Reflex. Nothing else available. I know I'll need an implement focus feat sometime, and maybe a few to help my companion mess with people. I was thinking that having godly levels of insight (as opposed to merely pretty good) might be fun, particularly since I'm doing a bit of sneaking around behind the group. Also need to train up Bluff sometime soon.