Dragon Age II, Part 2: The Qun is pretty deep, you wouldn't understand it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Well, the Dog Lords ARE Ferelden refugees that have turned to crime.

[Honest Tiefling]

Oh, that's confirmed? Nifty. But well, when you have economic or political turmoil, people often turn on whoever's handy, and the Dog Lords provide an excuse for this hatred. They can't attack the Qunari/blood mages/templars/whatevers, so why not take it out on the people who smell like wet dog who can't fight back?

[Edge]

Well, I played Legacy earlier today.

Let me just say that the designers of this DLC seem to hate mages who use Primal as their main DPS spell tree.

Aside from that, a pretty challenging, fairly long bit of DLC with an interesting if fairly easy (well, in comparison to the rest of the DLC) final boss fight.

I'd peg the DLC as more challenging than the climax events (by a noticeable margin), and I personally felt it was worth the 800 Microsoft points.

[Giggling Ghast]

Good to hear.

At what point in your campaign did you play Legacy, Edge? Was it Act I, II or III? Do you have any thoughts on that point?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I can't download Legacy because for some reason the game is "Unable to connect to Dragon Age Servers. Please try again later."

I've tried logging in again, but it says that the username and password, which I've used since the beginning are invalid. I've repeatedly asked for my password to help correct the issue, but for some reason the e-mails never seem to get to me. What the heck is going on?!

EDIT: Never mind, an e-mail finally came through and seems to have fixed the problem. Legacy is downloading right now!

[Edge]

Good to hear.

At what point in your campaign did you play Legacy, Edge? Was it Act I, II or III? Do you have any thoughts on that point?

My first playthrough of it was with a completed mage save, and my second will be with a completed warrior save. Third runthrough will be my in-progress rerun of my first DA2 run (again, as a mage) that I messed up (missed Fenris, and other stuff) and am currently putting right. I'll probably run it just before hitting up the climax. Seems to be where they intended for it to be: Carver/Bethany are given leave to depart the Gallows to help you sort the problem out if they're in the Order/the Circle, which implies to me that it's before everything goes to hell.

On the difficulty front, I'd seriously leave till at least late in Act 3. Hurlock Alphas hit really hard, and Genlock Alphas are almost unkillable unless you flank them.

Guess which ones often show up in narrow corridors with no room to maneuver?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

You mention Carver/Bethany are given leave to help if they're not Grey Wardens. What if they are? I'd like to play this with Bethany, who joined the Order, and it would make sense that way.

[VanBuren]

You mention Carver/Bethany are given leave to help if they're not Grey Wardens. What if they are? I'd like to play this with Bethany, who joined the Order, and it would make sense that way.

Considering how heavily Darkspawn figure into it, I can't imagine the Grey Wardens would have trouble letting one of their agents get involved.

[Edge]

No idea. Didn't know about the Grey Warden trick when I did those playthroughs. But I imagine they're given leave to go as well, given the Carta is after "the blood of the Hawke". In the playthroughs I did, the Carta is said to have made repeated attempts on all surviving Hawkes prior to the DLC proper starting.

[Calemyr]

The "legendary weapon" they're bragging about. Is it of the "level up with user" variety or a "nice for a while, then looks nice in a dusty display rack in the basement" variety?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Considering how heavily Darkspawn figure into it, I can't imagine the Grey Wardens would have trouble letting one of their agents get involved.

Just played through Legacy, and yes, Bethany/Carver can get involved if they're Wardens. They state at the beginning that they were attacked and received leave from the Wardens to investigate.

In regards to spoilery things:

Spoiler

Show

I was a bit confused as to what the most morally upstanding choice would have been. On the one hand, I can sympathize with Larius' desire to keep Corypheus imprisoned and given the notes I found after making that choice, Janeka was indeed being misled by him. But after I learned he threatened Leandra to get Malcom Hawke to cooperate, I abandoned him. For those who've made other choices, what happens if you stick with Larius regardless of what he did, or side with Janeka and then switch to Larius? I'm especially intrigued because, given what I saw at the end, Corypheus hijacked Janeka's body or something. I dunno, that smile was foreboding.

And furthermore, the battle with Corypheus was HARD. Playing as a warrior on the lowest difficulty level, I actually went down once, and almost everyone in the party was conked out at least twice. If it hadn't been for careful use of the Mythal's Favor grenades, I'd have had to restart the battle. If he's THAT hard on a low difficulty, I can't even imagine how one would win at higher ones.

And as for the legendary weapon, from what I can see, it doesn't level up with you, but it's likely meant for high-level play where really there's no further up to go. I personally stopped using it after Legacy because in my opinion the greatsword version's pretty ugly. What IS it with Dragon Age swords and the weird blade shapes and holes in it and whatnot?!

[Edge]

The "legendary weapon" they're bragging about. Is it of the "level up with user" variety or a "nice for a while, then looks nice in a dusty display rack in the basement" variety?

It should be nice, but in both my mage and warrior playthroughs, it was inferior to Falon'din's Torch and the Blade of Mercy each with a Primeval Lyrium Rune and a Rune of Devastation.

Also:

Spoiler

Show

I played through on Normal. I found the Corypheus fight ridiculously easy on my mage run (Primal/Force Mage/Spirit Healer build, party was Aveline Carver and Varric). I found the fights with the Genlock Alphas much more difficult. With Corypheus, it's just really a matter of keeping your party of the fire cones with judicious use of move to position and hold position.

[Calemyr]

Well, I broke down and did it. And I'm oddly conflicted. It's meshed into the story pretty well. (Cassandra: "Why didn't you tell me this part?" Varrick: "Sister, you didn't even believe Hawke had met Flemmeth. Why would I bother with this one?") And the story hits a balance between epic and personal (Varrick and Anders both get a gut-check once or twice if you bring them, and I suspect it's the same with everyone other than Mr. "An Andraste belt buckle is not an insult to the Maker" Sebastian.

The gear is decent at mid-high levels, but I would have really favored some runeslots over the customizations they allowed for the "legendary weapon" - they were not equivalent to a rune of the same effect at the same item level. Still, if that thing is as powerful early on as it is in the third act, the fact that it has no level or stat requirements would make it godly. The trinkets are only notably good if you don't have the Black Emporium, otherwise they're really just so-so. This includes the one from the Altar of Dumat sidequest, which is a pain in the butt (hint: none of the artifacts needed are in zones past the talking altar).

The bosses need a little more thought than the usual DA2 fare, but they're not all that much worse to fight. The exception is the final boss, who I've come to call the "Lord of the Hamster Dance" - I only won by letting my allies die during each dance and then rezzing them with a blessing bomb once the fight got back into gear.

Overall, I think I liked it. It had an interesting story with some nice little twists in the process. It expanded the lore in some interesting directions and had fights that were more than just a brainless brawl. It also acts as a 2-3 hour mission in which the younger Hawke gets to show off a little if you let them - which is rather nice because, otherwise, the only time you get to see them in action again is during the final push. But the gear is a bit of a let down (at least playing from a level 21 perspective) and, while respectable looking, the legendary weapon doesn't really have much going for it in terms of stats and enchantments.

In the end, Sandal would *not* approve, but Varrick would. The question is which dwarf you want to listen to.

[Calemyr]

Okay, I gotta admit the DLC is growing on me. I tried it with my diplomatic warrior and it was decent. I tried it with my joking mage and it became awesome. It's like the Dev team has finally figured out something is seriously wrong with how Hawke's life goes, because my mage is very clearly sick of it. The banter is hilarious:

Hawke: Blood. Again? Why is it always blood and never spit or a lock of hair.
Varrick: You'd want to face off against a spit mage?
Hawke: For variety's sake? Sure.

Hawke: One of these days I'm going to go some place without demons, blood mages, plagues, blights, or insanity... A beach, perhaps.
Varrick: Hawke, the day you go to the beach is the day that beach gets raided by evil demon-zombie pirates.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I'll admit, I've never taken the joking options. Every character I've played has been Diplomatic/Helpful, since that seems the most "Lawful Good" which I how I tend to play.

[Giggling Ghast]

Hawke: One of these days I'm going to go some place without demons, blood mages, plagues, blights, or insanity... A beach, perhaps.
Varrick: Hawke, the day you go to the beach is the day that beach gets raided by evil demon-zombie pirates.

Hawke is basically a Cosmic Plaything. No use denying it.

Although I usually go with the Good/Diplomatic options, I'll choose the Sarcastic option when it feels appropriate or when it prompts a bit of dialogue that fits the scene. Even a purely diplomatic Hawke is a little snarky.

Diplomatic Hawke: I'll speak (to the prostitutes at the Blooming Rose). You never know what you can learn from pillow talk.

[Calemyr]

I'll admit, I've never taken the joking options. Every character I've played has been Diplomatic/Helpful, since that seems the most "Lawful Good" which I how I tend to play.

Really? That's a pity. The joking lines are pure gold more often than not, especially as a mage. Hawke's obsession with changing into a dragon during the chat with Flemmeth is great (almost as much as the Warden's childlike fascination with gryphons when Wynne is telling her story in the original). Some of the automatic lines (those you don't select) are great when Hawke is in a joking mood.

Also, when it comes down to it, the joking persona of Hawke has always struck me as a weary and cynical soul who understands that fate is out to get him and take everything he ever held dear from him, piece by piece, before it comes to claim his life and he fully intends to laugh in death's face when it comes at last. The humor and sarcasm come off as a defense mechanism against frustration and opposition he faces daily. I find it makes Hawke a deeper and more interesting character, and the fact that he's genuinely funny at times just makes it better.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Yeah, but it doesn't seem very "Lawful Good." I mean, how can you top "Let's make Kirkwall a better place for everyone" in terms of Lawfully Goodness?

[Zevox]

Okay, I gotta admit the DLC is growing on me. I tried it with my diplomatic warrior and it was decent. I tried it with my joking mage and it became awesome. It's like the Dev team has finally figured out something is seriously wrong with how Hawke's life goes, because my mage is very clearly sick of it. The banter is hilarious:

Hawke: Blood. Again? Why is it always blood and never spit or a lock of hair.
Varrick: You'd want to face off against a spit mage?
Hawke: For variety's sake? Sure.

Hawke: One of these days I'm going to go some place without demons, blood mages, plagues, blights, or insanity... A beach, perhaps.
Varrick: Hawke, the day you go to the beach is the day that beach gets raided by evil demon-zombie pirates.

Hah! I like that. Reminds me of the banter with Liara while picking the lock in Lair of the Shadowbroker.

So then, I'm getting that so far the general consensus is that this DLC is probably worth the price of admission?

Zevox

[Giggling Ghast]

So then, I'm getting that so far the general consensus is that this DLC is probably worth the price of admission?

I haven't gotten it yet, but I checked on a few player reviews and the only people who disliked it really hated DA2 in the first place.

[SowZ]

So I had an Andermance, (was sleeping with Isabella but she betrayed me in the fade and I got pissed and broke up with her and Ander's tried to comfort me and swept me off my feet,) and was satisfied that I had sexed the only 'good' character available to me. I needed a good person to balance my moral... flexibility.

KIND OF A SPOILER A LITTLE BIT, I GUESS

So when everything went down I sat there and uttered what the crap for about five minutes straight with Meredith and Orsino just staring at me waiting for a reply. I mean, what the frick, dude?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Is there ANY kind of good Andermance considering...

Spoiler

Show

...the Chantry incident? I find it very hard for a "Lawful Good" type player such as myself to like him after knowing what he'll do, even if he's genuinely sorry because you've maxxed out his rivalry. And I'd rather not have Sebastian bring down an army on me. It's sort of an odd dichotomy. If you're a friend of his, then he's unrepentant, and that makes him more unlikeable in my book, but if you support mages and mage freedom, then why would you be a rival with him?

I've been interested in having one of my Hawke's romance Anders (virtually all my characters have romanced Merrill, except for one who picked Fenris), but I have no idea how to reconcile the fact that if Anders is repentant, it's because you're his rival, but if you support mage freedom, he remains unrepentant, and thus is more of a jerk.

[Zevox]

I haven't gotten it yet, but I checked on a few player reviews and the only people who disliked it really hated DA2 in the first place.

One wonders why the heck they actually bought the DLC, then.

Zevox

[Calemyr]

Zevox: I liked it. The plot is pretty good (2-3 hours of good stuff, but you can stretch it to five if you want to see both paths and do all the quests), all the characters seem to have something revealing to say (other than Sebastian), and it manages to make the plot personal to Hawke without making the Champion the center of the world. Again. A lot of old complaints are fixed (no maps get reused, few wave-based fights, the introduction of ambushes and "strategic" fights). The gear is okay, but not end-game quality and, despite the vaunted customizability of the legendary weapon, it ends up much less customizable (and weaker) than if it had just given us rune slots.

Real bonus of this DLC, though: the Fortress set of equipment, which uses warden-style armor. Finally the Champion can dress as well as a Grey Warden. Of course, if you cared about that, you've probably modded some other armor to use that model instead. Ah well.

Spoiler

Show

One other potential bit of good news is that, if Anders is in your party, he is devastated by the final boss's revelations and is forced to admit that his beliefs may not be beyond question after all. I didn't see anything meaningful come of it, but could this be the first step in a Broken Steel-style rewriting of the ending? What would the game be like if Anders questioned whether he was right or wrong?

Zousha: Lawful good is about actions, not tactfulness. My usual Hawkes are very devoted to the city and its peoples, honorable in their dealings and true heirs to Amell line. They also tend to make light of grim situations, joke in the face of certain death, and mercilessly mock anything that threatens their city or their family. Playing the diplomatic path allows a couple dialogues to go happier directions (the elf and the werewolf one comes to mind), however.

SowZ: If you're playing a female (the combination of Isabele and Anders is not conclusive on that point) and have the DLC for Sebastian, he can be romanced - to a degree. You can't flirt with anyone but him to get it to work, and he doesn't by or move in. If Sebastian ends on the Friend side, you end up in a chaste marriage with a priest. If he ends up on the Rival side, you get to marry the prince instead. At least that's what I hear - I haven't finished the game I'm testing it on, but he certainly seems amenable to the idea.

Anyway, I just mention that so that you'd no there's at least one truly good-aligned potential love interest in the game.

[Dienekes]

Is there ANY kind of good Andermance considering...

Spoiler

Show

...the Chantry incident? I find it very hard for a "Lawful Good" type player such as myself to like him after knowing what he'll do, even if he's genuinely sorry because you've maxxed out his rivalry. And I'd rather not have Sebastian bring down an army on me. It's sort of an odd dichotomy. If you're a friend of his, then he's unrepentant, and that makes him more unlikeable in my book, but if you support mages and mage freedom, then why would you be a rival with him?

I've been interested in having one of my Hawke's romance Anders (virtually all my characters have romanced Merrill, except for one who picked Fenris), but I have no idea how to reconcile the fact that if Anders is repentant, it's because you're his rival, but if you support mage freedom, he remains unrepentant, and thus is more of a jerk.

Or you know

Spoiler

Show

Divide what you know and what you're character knows. Just because you know that Anders goes off the deep end doesn't mean a Hawke wouldn't bang him before they figured that out. Which I believe is what happened to SowZ.

It's fine to try and have a good romance with the guy which just doesn't work out in the end. Also adds a bit of sacrifice and following the whole lawful part of lawful good when you kill him for his crimes at the end.

Also at Calemyr. I have to agree Lawful Good does not mean always diplomatic and never joking. In fact I think one of the strengths of DA2 over ME series is that you are not punished for developing your character beyond a single path. For example the one character I played who I would definitely say was LG rarely if ever used diplomacy and preferred to tell idiots exactly why they were dumb and then fixing their problems.

Also I can see a case for Merril being a good aligned romance, just a stupid one.

[Giggling Ghast]

One wonders why the heck they actually bought the DLC, then.

How would they be able to complain otherwise?

The general consensus is that this is the best DLC that's yet been produced for Dragon Age. Take what you will from that.

[Zevox]

The general consensus is that this is the best DLC that's yet been produced for Dragon Age. Take what you will from that.

Surprising. I know Dragon Age never had anything completely stupendous (i.e. Lair of the Shadowbroker), but Stone Prisoner was pretty damn good in its own right, and some people were pretty impressed with some of the other DA:O DLC, like Warden's Keep.

Zevox

[Calemyr]

Warden's Keep is a pretty good DLC to compare this to, because Legacy is more or less Warden's Keep pumped up on serious steroids. The basic plot has some similar elements - a forsaken tower in the middle of nowhere marks a dubious page in the Grey Warden history, and factions within the tower try to enlist you against the other factions. While there you get to forge a "super weapon" that becomes iconic for you.

What is different between the two is scope, and the two are worlds apart on that score. The tower in Warden's Keep amounted to a tiny snow covered yard and three or four floors that were of reasonable size for a modest keep, all populated with the standard undead and demons. This one has two large maps before entering the keep and six or seven floors afterwards, and most of these floors on their own are big enough to make thaigs jealous (not surprising, because it is suggested that most of it is repurposed Deep Road (repurposed in story, there's nothing like them in the main game)). There's a lot of dead space in there, but the increase in scale definitely makes it feel epic.

Character interaction is good. Everyone has a lot to say and it seems almost everyone (Sebastian excluded) shows something new in the process. Those looking for insight on Bianca's origins are encouraged to bring Varric along for the ride, for instance. You'll probably want to, anyways, because he has quite a bit to say in this DLC and it's almost all worth hearing. The younger Hawkes also can join you on this quest even in later acts, assuming they're still alive, and have many new banters with party members. It's really nice to see them back in the party - even if Bethany seemed to be trying to tempt Sebastian away from Hawke...

As I've said multiple times now, the gear is a disappointment in general - good, but nothing to compare with end-game epics. The Key in particular, this DLC's legendary weapon, can rival the Starfang in base damage, but falls flat by virtue of having no rune slots and meager enchantments. Black Emporium sells a good deal of gear of that grade without having to solve puzzles to do so. The fact that the weapon changes form based on your class and three of the weapon's four enchantments are selected by you (each from a pool of four options) is nice, but the lack of runes really cripples it. The Fortress gear, however, is quite solid and darn well should be - given that you have to find and solve puzzles to get half of it and it's pretty easy to miss some pieces (particularly the helm) altogether.

[SowZ]

Or you know

Spoiler

Show

Divide what you know and what you're character knows. Just because you know that Anders goes off the deep end doesn't mean a Hawke wouldn't bang him before they figured that out. Which I believe is what happened to SowZ.

It's fine to try and have a good romance with the guy which just doesn't work out in the end. Also adds a bit of sacrifice and following the whole lawful part of lawful good when you kill him for his crimes at the end.

Also at Calemyr. I have to agree Lawful Good does not mean always diplomatic and never joking. In fact I think one of the strengths of DA2 over ME series is that you are not punished for developing your character beyond a single path. For example the one character I played who I would definitely say was LG rarely if ever used diplomacy and preferred to tell idiots exactly why they were dumb and then fixing their problems.

Also I can see a case for Merril being a good aligned romance, just a stupid one.

Spoiler

Show

Yeah. I just couldn't bring myself to kill him. My whole character's morality was based on loyalty to family and friends before loyalty to any code or anything else. Kind of a, 'everyone should look after their own' world view. It pissed Sebastian off, but I just told him to leave. Later, when he came back, he asked what out deal was. I told him I wouldn't travel with him but wouldn't let him be executed for his crimes, either. But I suppose after I lost control of Hawke NPC Hawke changed that tune or at least Varric thought so...

I look at Merill as one side of the coin and the templars are on the opposite side. Personally, I can't call Merill or most templars 'good' even if their intentions are.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Or you know

Spoiler

Show

Divide what you know and what you're character knows. Just because you know that Anders goes off the deep end doesn't mean a Hawke wouldn't bang him before they figured that out. Which I believe is what happened to SowZ.

It's fine to try and have a good romance with the guy which just doesn't work out in the end. Also adds a bit of sacrifice and following the whole lawful part of lawful good when you kill him for his crimes at the end.

Wasn't quite what I was asking there.

Spoiler

Show

I want Anders to feel sorry for what he's done, as opposed to unrepentant, but I want to support the mages because I want my character to romance him, and I'm unsure how to balance an Anders rivalry with mage support. It'd be like the times I sided with the templars and had him as a friend, he'd say I was a mage supporter when nothing I'd done indicated that.