OOTS #1179 - The Discussion Thread

[137beth]

You become High Priest when the relevant god tells you you're the high priest.

What gives you that idea? At the Godsmoot we saw the original HPoH step down and appoint the new HPoH, without Hel saying anything about it.

[Riftwolf]

What gives you that idea? At the Godsmoot we saw the original HPoH step down and appoint the new HPoH, without Hel saying anything about it.

It could've been part of Hel's plan to give HPoH authority to redelegate the title, so her most useful clergy were free to leave.
Other clergies with more established rules will work differently, because they're not two weeks old and have needed frameworks to stop random adventuring clerics declaring themselves High Priests just because they got 6th level spells.

[CriticalFailure]

Well that's at least easily explainable; sorcerers get cast spontaneously, which is a pretty big boon, so they get their spell levels upgraded at one level later. And have a hard cap on how many spells they can know. And don't get any bonus feats. And are fluffed as inferior to wizards despite being born with the innate ability to create what wizards have to study in order to replicate. And still need material components despite having the innate ability to cast magic.

So... Pathfinder Sorcerer, you say?

I never got the trope that Sorcerers are seen are lesser than Wizards when they can cast from innate ability. I would've expected the opposite. I want to play a wizard who tries to pass themsellf off as a sorcerer.

[Particle_Man]

Given the votes already cast, it's quite possible that when they reconvene Hel wins if the issue is still on the table. The winning vote for her was cast at the same time the elder paused the meeting, and the rules say no backsies.

Better safe than sorry.

And mending won't do squat in any case, as the table weighs more than one pound.

I don't think the last elder's vote counts, as it was interrupted by the pause in the meeting. It wasn't a "Yes" yet, it was at best a "Y-". Which could be "Yeaaaano!"

Hmm, I'm not too active on the forums, but did I miss them taking some action regarding the poor dude who got transported to the Plane of Infinite Painful Slopes?

Perhaps Thad has a second chance at romance?

[Talion]

I feel like having a hard cap is enough to balance the spontaneous casting, the rest makes the class seem really poorly balanced (correct me if it turns out that doesn’t matter all that much and the other stuff matters a lot).

The short hand version: 3.5/Pathfinder Sorcerers are considered a "Tier 2" class. This means they're almost as good as you can get, in any hypothetical setup. They share the Wizard's spell list and have full spell caster progression (to level 9 spells, and Epic, etc). And, like the Wizard, a Sorcerer only 'needs' a single stat (their Charisma) to be fully effective, with anything else being a negligible penalty or icing on the cake for bonuses.

However, a Wizard in the same editions are considered "Tier 1", mostly because of the aforementioned balance decisions by the game's creators. In theory, they're much more powerful than Sorcerers of the same effective optimization. In practice, this can range a bit wildly depending on campaign, play style, build, spells chosen and the availability of other spells, player experience, etc.

Ultimately, they fill the same role in a party (ie the Arcane Spellcaster) and, so long as they don't make a point of spoiling each other's fun (or the fun of the other party members) it may not matter much on a group by group basis.

For a more detailed explanation, you might want to look through the 3.5/Pathfinder section of the Roleplaying sub-forums here on the Playground.

[CriticalFailure]

Isn't the main difference that wizards can typically fill many different roles with proper planning, whereas sorcerers have flexibility in executing their role but is limited in what roles they can actually fill due to restrictions on spells known?

[Peelee]

I feel like having a hard cap is enough to balance the spontaneous casting, the rest makes the class seem really poorly balanced (correct me if it turns out that doesn’t matter all that much and the other stuff matters a lot).

Oh, I totally agree; the wizard is way more utilitarian, while the sorcerer is able to cast on the fly but from a significantly smaller pool, so that seems like a pretty good tradeoff. That said, I wouldn't completely discount also having the extra level required for a new spell level, because spontaneous casting is pretty powerful.

Oh, also, even though wizards and sorcerers mostly share the same spell list, there are a few spells that are wizard only. Which I can understand, wizards do intense study and research and can try to invent new things. There are zero core spells that are sorcerer only, though, which I don't understand; there's a case to be made that some things can't be learned, but nope, wizards get a seat at the table and sorcs get the scraps that fall off the plate.

I did like that 5e made metamagic a sorcerer-only thing; not that I think wizards shouldn't be able to, but it made a slightly clearer demarcation between the classes and gave extra flavor to the sorc, even if I think they still got the short end of the stick in 5e as well.

I never got the trope that Sorcerers are seen are lesser than Wizards when they can cast from innate ability. I would've expected the opposite. I want to play a wizard who tries to pass themself off as a sorcerer.

I actually played the opposite; I've done a Sorcerer who acted somewhat like a Wizard, spellbook and everything, under the idea that if he ever got captured, jailed, etc., that the opponents would believe that taking the spellbook and spell component pouch away would allow effective imprisonment. Also took Silent Spell and Still Spell feats, too; that was one paranoid caster, I tells ya.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What gives you that idea? At the Godsmoot we saw the original HPoH step down and appoint the new HPoH, without Hel saying anything about it.

Hel is cheating every chance she can. As Gontor said, prove otherwise.

The rest comes from a conversation we had back when the Godsmoot first popped up. Malack was High Priest of Nergal. How did his replacement suddenly know he'd been promoted, and in time for the Western session of the Godsmoot?

[Peelee]

Hel is cheating every chance she can. As Gontor said, prove otherwise.

The rest comes from a conversation we had back when the Godsmoot first popped up. Malack was High Priest of Nergal. How did his replacement suddenly know he'd been promoted, and in time for the Western session of the Godsmoot?

How sure are you that Nergal was represented at the Western session of the Godsmoot?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Since some silver dragon looking guy identified one of the clerics as wearing the Nergal uniform, pretty confident.

[Talion]

How sure are you that Nergal was represented at the Western session of the Godsmoot?

For that matter, how sure are we that Malak was Nergal's High Priest? He's been called "Minister Malak" a few times, once with a "Your Holiness", but I don't believe anyone specifically called him "High Priest" in any capacity.

[Peelee]

Since some silver dragon looking guy identified one of the clerics as wearing the Nergal uniform, pretty confident.

Ah, sounds like someone who was no idea what they're talking about.

[Rogar Demonblud]

For that matter, how sure are we that Malak was Nergal's High Priest? He's been called "Minister Malak" a few times, once with a "Your Holiness", but I don't believe anyone specifically called him "High Priest" in any capacity.

Tarquin and Malack both referred to him with that term, and they'd be in a position to know.

[Ruck]

She.

"That" is valid assuming its antecedent is the escape and not the vampire.

Yes, I got here late enough that this is the only relevant comment I have.

[Schroeswald]

Ah, sounds like someone who was no idea what they're talking about.

Honestly I think that you had no clue the first time, because I don’t see anyone who looks like they have Nergal’s clerics uniforms.

[Fyraltari]

"That" is valid assuming its antecedent is the escape and not the vampire.

Yes, I got here late enough that this is the only relevant comment I have.

But then my joke makes no sense! Escapes cannot bite people!

[Jasdoif]

Well that's at least easily explainable; sorcerers get cast spontaneously, which is a pretty big boon, so they get their spell levels upgraded at one level later. And have a hard cap on how many spells they can know. And don't get any bonus feats. And are fluffed as inferior to wizards despite being born with the innate ability to create what wizards have to study in order to replicate. And still need material components despite having the innate ability to cast magic.

And have to spend more actions to apply metamagic when they cast, unlike wizards....And action economy is life-or-death (literally in some cases).

I wholly get that spontaneous casting was a new concept, and that assuming mostly damage-dealing spells means the delayed access isn't as big a deal since most damage spells were d6-per-caster-level anyway....But it goes overboard counteracting the value of flexibility, like two different people had different ideas of how to balance it and both were implemented. And this is before considering the number of "highly effective for its spell level because it only works in niche cases" spells, which a wizard can simply leave it in a spellbook and only prepare when they need it while a sorcerer has to weigh it against any other spell of that level. A sorcerer is pounded (maybe even kiloed!) by opportunity costs.

[Reboot]

I actually played the opposite; I've done a Sorcerer who acted somewhat like a Wizard, spellbook and everything, under the idea that if he ever got captured, jailed, etc., that the opponents would believe that taking the spellbook and spell component pouch away would allow effective imprisonment. Also took Silent Spell and Still Spell feats, too; that was one paranoid caster, I tells ya.

...wouldn't that also require Eschew Materials, because sorcs still need the material components?

[CriticalFailure]

I thought they got eschew materials as a class feature?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Another case that D&D's magic system is a kludge, frankly. It probably needs a ground up rebuild each edition, but changing that is a major sacred cow.

[Peelee]

Honestly I think that you had no clue the first time, because I don’t see anyone who looks like they have Nergal’s clerics uniforms.

I don't even remember commenting on that, frankly. And looking back, yeah, I only see one cloaky guy and it doesn't look black.

And have to spend more actions to apply metamagic when they cast, unlike wizards....And action economy is life-or-death (literally in some cases).

"What's Quicken Spell" - every 3.5 sorcerer ever.

...wouldn't that also require Eschew Materials, because sorcs still need the material components?

Yeah, for some reason I thought I'd said that.

I thought they got eschew materials as a class feature?

In Pathfinder, yes. D&D, no.

[CriticalFailure]

Oops I continue to not know D&D stuff.

Speaking of metamagic I want to try playing a wizard with the sacred geometry feat (idk if it's in d&d but PF has it) but I don't know if I can actually do mental math on that fast enough to keep the GM from making a grapple check to strangle me.

[Jasdoif]

...wouldn't that also require Eschew Materials, because sorcs still need the material components?

Yeah, for some reason I thought I'd said that.

And here I was ready to accept that you only chose spells without inexpensive material components, and used the feat slot for something else....

[Peelee]

And here I was ready to accept that you only chose spells without inexpensive material components, and used the feat slot for something else....

To be fair, I didn't spend a feat slot but convinced the DM to give it to me free. I think the argument had something along the lines of "they have innate magic, how innate is 'by the way you need to chuck a little bat poop around, you do NOT want to know how the first sorcerer figured that out!'"

[jwhouk]

Just as an aside: I suspect that we are back at the Godsmoot for one last reason, akin to what happened at the end of the last book:

Something big is about to happen. And it involves someone at the Godsmoot.

[Schroeswald]

Just as an aside: I suspect that we are back at the Godsmoot for one last reason, akin to what happened at the end of the last book:

Something big is about to happen. And it involves someone at the Godsmoot.

I doubt it, this seems much more like a cutaway panel.

[SlashDash]

Just as an aside: I suspect that we are back at the Godsmoot for one last reason, akin to what happened at the end of the last book:

Something big is about to happen. And it involves someone at the Godsmoot.

Disagree. We're at the Godsmoot to explain why the clerics don't rush to help Roy (or Stop him for the "YES" voters).


However, I will say the fact that everyone talk about how Curly isn't going to do anything meaningful means that she's going to do exactly that.


We'll see her doing something for the next book.
Still betting on her reaching out to Team Evil.

[CriticalFailure]

Why would she reach out to Team Evil?

[factotum]

Why would she reach out to Team Evil?

And why would Team Evil care if she did? Hel's aims do not align with theirs in any way.

[Peelee]

And why would Team Evil care if she did? Hel's aims do not align with theirs in any way.

Not to mention she's a speck of dust compared to them, power-wise